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Giants?...Sons of God?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by TheBear, Jan 19, 2002.

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  1. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    bwsmith
    either its inspired by god or it isnt.
    either god breathed into it or he didnt.
    if he didnt, he is a liar.
    if he did then the holyspirits influence kept mistakes like your assumption from happening.

    i quit worrying what the proud and prudent thought a long time ago.
    this world is dying, the church is barely breathing, if it was what it should be then our world would not be what it is. oh some churches are great, but the THE CHURCH is not.
    so, if the church isnt what it should be, there really arent many church people i listen to, even less with phds. becuase most people dont know the truth. those things can mess you up sometimes.
    god didnt write a book that only college proffesors can understand. hes not a respecter of persons. and he came to preach the gospel to the poor.
    his word is clearly understood.
    it must be taken literally if at all possible.
    if it is not literal, it always clearly says so.
     
  2. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    AMEN to that Psalms!!!! (but it's just my opinion).
     
  3. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,621
    Atheist
    Private
    That's all I needed to know, Debbie. ;)
     
  4. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    Good
     
  5. BWSmith

    BWSmith Biblical Scholar

    367
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    Psalm wrote:
    > either its inspired by god or it isnt.

    It is.

    >either god breathed into it or he didnt.

    I didn't know He had lungs...

    > if he didnt, he is a liar.

    God isn't a liar.

    > if he did then the holyspirits influence kept mistakes like your assumption from happening.

    Either 1) you don't know what you're talking about, or 2) the Holy Spirit hasn't done a very good job in keeping "mistakes" out of the transmission of the Bible. Chances are that (1) is the case.
     
  6. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    2cd timothy 3.16
    ALL scripture is given by INSPIRATION of god...
    that word inspiration is "THEOPNEUSTOS or
    "DIVINELY BREATHED IN"
    he breathed into his word.

    the same as he breathed into adam, or onto the disciples, it always refers to the influence of the holyghost.
    he made his word flawless.

    so, anymore mistakes you think god made in his word?
    the bible says the holyspirit wrote the word, thru mens hands, so, your claiming he messed up. my gods bigger than that.

    god doesnt have lungs? well he has a face, he has breath, he has eyes, he has hands, he has feet, why not lungs?
    i dont think god is some floating thing, but a person. not human, but person, with as much a body as you and i.
    we are made in his image. he looks like us.

    naa, i think you are wrong about things being placed and moved around and added.
     
  7. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    If I may interject here:
    God does not have a body Psalms 22.3. The scripture clearly says that "God is spirit" (John 4:24). When the scripture uses phrases like that they are what's known as an 'anthropomorphism', which means an interpretation of what is not human or personal in terms of human or personal characteristics.

    God Bless
     
  8. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    dont believe ya man. apologist.

    god is a real person
    1. personal names are given him.
    gen.1.1, ex.3.13-15, 6.3, ps.68.4
    and his names are found over 1900 times in scripture.
    2. personal statements are made about god as with other persons. there are hundreds of examples.
    3. personal relationships are ascribed to him.
    4. personal plans are ascribed to him.
    5. a personal body, soul, and spirit are ascribed to him.

    body,
    the body of any being is the outward form or house in which his soul and spirit dwell.
    gen 2.7,19 describes adams body.
    matthew 27.52 describe even our bodies coming out of the grave in the ressurection.
    1st corinthians 15. 40-49
    there are CELLESTIAL BODIES, TERRESTRIAL BODIES.
    there are SPIRIT BODIES. v44 which is what god has.
    spirits have bodies, they are real bodies.

    soul
    the soul is that invisible part of all living beings that feels.
    the seat of his affections, emotions, passions, and desires, and which gives him some self conciousness, and makes him a sentient being
    sam.22.2 feelings. from soul.
    2 sam 13.39 the soul of david longed.
    hebrews 10.38 GODS soul.
    god has a soul.

    spirit
    the spirit is that invisible part of all living beings that knows.
    the seat of his intellect, mind, and will, and that gives him self determination makes him a free moral agent and a rational being.
    1 cor. 2.11 the spirit knows. and god has a spirit.

    so, god has body, soul, and spirit. hes a person.
    his body does not have to be carnal like ours to be a body. his form is just as much a body as ours. it is a spirit body. no one can LOOK UPON HIS GLORY and live. he can be looked upon. he has a form.

    6. personal works are ascribed to him. many personal acts in the first 2 chapters of the bible.
    7. personal pronouns are used of all 3 of the divine trinity, both singular and plural.

    god has features.
    the redeemed will see gods "FACE" or "prosopon"
    meaning "countanence, outward appearance, surface, person"
    rev.7.9, 14.5, 21.3, 22.4-5
    see FACE in
    matthew 6.17, 18.10, 26.39, 67, acts 6.15, 20.25,38, 1 cor. 13.12, rev. 4.7, 6.16, 10.1, 20.11.
    the word in these passages are of BOTH god and man, so both must have a face.

    are we going to call all these witnesses false just to be in harmony with modern interpretors who never once saw god?
    would it not be best to take the word of men who saw god and know what they are talking about, than to take the word of men who never once saw god and claim he cant be comprehended?

    moses declared that man was made in the IMAGE or LIKENESS of god. the hebrew word for image is tselem.
    meaning SHAPE, SHADOW, RESEMBLENCE, FIGURE, BODILY FORM. as proved in all passages where it is used.
    the hebrew word for likeness is demooth
    meanning MODEL, SHAPE, FASHION,SIMILITUDE, BODILY RESEMBLANCE.

    gen. 1.26-27, 9.6, 5.3, ex. 20.4, lev. 26.1, ps 73.20, 106.19,
    isaiah 40.18, ezekiel 1.5, 10, 13, 16, 22, 26, 28, 10.1, 10, 21-22.

    just to give a SMALL amount of evidence.
     
  9. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Let me clear this up:
    1 Timothy 1:17 says: Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
    The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.

    God is Invisible. Colossians 1:15, and Hebrews 11:24-27 says the same thing. Don't make scripture say something it doesn't, that is not the way to rightly divide the word of truth. All the examples you gave are anthropomorphism's as I already said. God is a person, yes. But personhood does not mean bodly form necessarily. If God has a body then why does He say,“Do I not fill heaven and earth?” says the Lord. (Jer. 23:24)
    John 4:24 says, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
    What is a spirit? Jesus told us in Luke 24:39: Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
    So by deductive reasoning we come to the conclusion from God's word that He is a Spirit who is invisible and fills the whole earth.
    That is impossible for someone walking around in a body to do. All of the examples you gave are human attributes ascribed to God explain the things God does so that we can understand it. When you start arguing that God has a body you start to worry me because it sounds like Mormon argument.

    God Bless my friend
     
  10. BWSmith

    BWSmith Biblical Scholar

    367
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    ps wrote:
    > 2cd timothy 3.16: ALL scripture is given by INSPIRATION of god... that word inspiration is "THEOPNEUSTOS or "DIVINELY BREATHED IN" he breathed into his word.

    Again, God doesn't have lungs, so Paul doesn't mean this literally. The question is not whether this is figurative, but how figurative.

    Because of the context of the statement, "continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of", Paul is saying that both the Jewish scriptures and Christ came from God. Hence, we shouldn't throw out the scriptures. He isn't revealing something magical about the way the scriptures were written.

    > so, anymore mistakes you think god made in his word? the bible says the holyspirit wrote the word, thru mens hands, so, your claiming he messed up. my gods bigger than that.

    Nobody "messed up". I'm explaining what it says based on what we can determine about who wrote it.

    > god doesnt have lungs? well he has a face, he has breath, he has eyes, he has hands, he has feet, why not lungs? i dont think god is some floating thing, but a person. not human, but person, with as much a body as you and i. we are made in his image. he looks like us.

    Are you a Mormon?
     
  11. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    apologist
    i agree spirits arent flesh and blood as us, but they have bodies still, and they are not everywhere at the same time, as even god himself is not.

    the invisibility of god.
    the word invisible is "aoratos"
    it means not visible, concealed, not in sight, unseen,
    referring to distance more than substance.
    a city or objects 30 miles away are unseen to you. at this distance they are invisible. objects concealed are invisible. anything out of eyesight is invisible. god, angles, and other spirit beings are thus invisible. they can appear and disappear at will. they have been seen with natural eyes many times, proving that invisibility must be understood with them as will all other invisible things that can become visbible.

    18 proofs god can be seen.
    1. god has been seen with a body.
    john 5.37 says that we can see his shape.
    2. man was made bodily in gods image.
    gen. 1.26
    3. god ate food with abraham.
    gen 18.8
    4. jacob wrestled with god.
    gen. 32.24
    5. 74 men ate with god.
    ex. 42.11
    6. moses saw god face to face out of his glory.
    ex.32.11
    7.joshua and all isreal saw him.
    josh 5.13-15
    8. gideon saw god.
    judges 6.11-23
    9.samsons parents saw him.
    judges 13.3-23
    10. david saw god.
    1 chr.21.16-17
    11. job saw god.
    job 42.5
    12. isaiah saw and described god.
    isa 6.
    13. amos saw the lord.
    amos 9.1
    14. ezekiel described god.
    ex. 1.26-28, 10.20, 40.3 with 43.7, 47.1-6
    15. daniel described god, even his clothes, body and hair.
    dan. 7.9-14, 10.5-6
    16. stephen saw god and christ.
    acts 7.56
    17. john described god.
    rev. 4.2-5, 5.1-7
    18. all will see god.
    rev. 21.3-4, 22.4

    god fills the earth
    god is omnipresent,
    but not omnibody-as in he is everywhere at the same time, filling the entire universe, as you say. he is not everywhere.
    i proved earlier that he can be seen and was seen many times. so his body must be in one place at one time. he has a body and goes from place to place like anyone else.

    his presence can be felt by people everywhere. we are with him in spirit. 2 people may feel the others presence in aquaintance, thought, memory, relationship, even though they are thousands of miles apart.
    the closer 2 persons are relationship, the more they can feel their presence in the thought life.
    god dwells in heavon, and persons on earth are in union with him in spirit, and feel his presence in their lives regardless if they are on earth or in heavon.
    it is the omnipresence of god, not the omnibody of god.

    paul and the corinthians were in together in spirit
    even though he was not with them bodily.
    this is how god and man are.

    1 cor. 5. 3.
    for I verily, as ABSENT IN BODY, but PRESENT IN SPIRIT...

    this is proof that a person can be present, without being bodily present.
    since this is possible, it clearly explains how men have seen the body of god, yet god fills the whole earth.
    he is absent in body, yet present in spirit everywhere.
    "where 2 or more are together in his name" he is there, see? in spirit.
    paul was away at the time when the corinthians read that.
    and jesus prayed to the father "IN HEAVON".
    yet paul was with the corinthians, and the father was with jesus.

    no i am not mormon.
    i call myself pentecostal, but i myself am surprised how much i am changing from the normal. i myself believed god was everywhere last week. i dont really know what to call myself. haha
    man, im changing so fast.

    p.s. be open minded, i know that attacks a lot of modern tradition and theology, but i find it clearly the truth. only when this true does the bible seem to harmonise.

    bwsmith
    i understand we must emphasise "ALL" in that scripture, yet the rest of the scripture is also true.
    he did reveal something.

    no i am not a mormon.
    i am simply christian searching the word of god for myself.

    OK, READ THAT WITH AN OPEN MIND, DONT DOG ME AND DISMISS IT SIMPLY BECAUSE NO-ONE ELSE HAS EVER TOLD YOU THAT.

    satan sewd tares amoungst the weat.
    as there are evil people present untill the end of this age.
    there are also lies (earlier parables refer to the seed as the word) satan sowed evil seed).
    there are also lies that will be with the world untill the end of this age.
    one, i believe, is that god is everywhere.
    though it doesnt cause enougth problem to need addressing, and most people would hate you simply because you dared to rock the boat of traditional belief.

    a preacher once said
    "if you move the church piano, move it six inches a week"

    youd be surprised how angry people get over any change to there padded comfort zone.
     
  12. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    >p.s. be open minded, i know that attacks a lot of modern tradition and theology, but i find it clearly the truth. only when this true does the bible seem to harmonise.

    You have absolutely no grasp on what scripture teaches my friend. Why do you call it modern tradition? No church father in the past would have taught what you are saying or he would have been branded a heretic. I showed you how the bible uses anthropomorphic language to describe God's actions but you don't want to hear it. All the visitations of God in the Old Testament such as when He visited Abraham were what is known as a 'Theophany' which means a visible manifestation of God. God told Moses that no man can see Me and live, so God did not literally visit Moses and the other Patriarchs as you think. God manifested Himself in a body for that instance only. Every cult is started from a misconception of the nature of God, and you are following that same path. Practice biblical exegesis and let the word of God speak for itself and you will learn. You are taking verses and pouring your own preconceived ideas into them to make them fit your theological ideas. That my friend is extremely dangerous!

    God Bless
     
  13. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +29
    Messianic
    Apologist how do you explain this:

    Here Jacob clearly understood these spirit beings as Angels as he named the place after them "HE SAID, THIS IS GOD'S HOST" host is another name for angels. Mahanaim in Hebrew means encampment of armys ie: angels, host.


    And then further down the chapter:

    Notice he called this place Peni EL because he had seen God face to face and lived.

    This proves to me that he physically wrestled with God, And if this wasn't God, who had the right to change his name to Israel, the nation of Gods chosen peoples?

    Peniel in Hebrew means "the face of God"

    I agree with Psalms 22.3
     
  14. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,621
    Atheist
    Private
    Are angels spirits?
     
  15. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    God did wrestle with Jacob, I agree. But it was a theophany wrestling with Jacob and not God in His essence!

    If it were literally God in His essence then answer me this: John 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
    The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

    Since this verse is explicitly clear that no man has seen God, and God's word cannot contradict itself, then we must come to the conclusion that when Jacob saw God, "face to face" he did not literally see God's true form.
    Listen to the Bible Knowledge Commentary's notes on this:

    "The statement No one has ever seen God (cf. 1 John 4:12) may seem to raise a problem. Did not Isaiah say, “My eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty”? (Isa. 6:5) God in His essence is invisible (1 Tim. 1:17). He is One “whom no one has seen or can see” (1 Tim. 6:16). But John 1:18 means, “no one has ever seen God’s essential nature.” God may be seen in a theophany or anthropomorphism but His inner essence or nature is disclosed only in Jesus."

    You guys have to understand that the bible often uses anthropomorphic language to convey an attribute of God.
    Consider the language of Psalm 91:4: "He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust:"
    Does this verse mean that God is a bird with feathers? Of course not! it is using a figure of speech to convey a thought. How about John 15:5: "I am the vine, ye are the branches."
    Does this mean He is a plant? Of course not! It is also a figure of speech to convey a thought. The same is true when we read in Psalm 16:11: "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." The term, "thy right hand" does not mean God has a literal hand. It is an expression of power when the right hand is used. If this doesn't clear it up for you guys then all I can do is pray that God will open your eyes to the truth.

    God Bless
     
  16. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,621
    Atheist
    Private
    I think God held back big time, because if He had not, Jacob would be killed in an instant.
     
  17. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    you showed me that you think no one has seen god, and that you think when the bible clearly says they SAW god, gods face(countanence, surface or PERSON) that YOU THINK it is a theophany or whatever your talking about.
    i agree, the bible does give figurative pictures of god. but i do not agree that they are all figurative.
    you showed me what you think. you expect me to take it as fact becuase you said it? im sorry man. i havent called you crasy for not believing me, though i also claim ive proven myself.

    well call me a heretic, i dont mind, jesus was called crasy to.
    though im sure you laugh at me comparing myself to him, since you think im so wrong. anyway, it dont bother me a bit dude, your not the first to say these kind of things to me.

    so was jacob wrong? as it appears he really thinks he wrestled with god.
    were is the scripture to prove your theophony explanation? you can give what you call a theophony, but that does not prove thats what it was.

    john 1.18
    care to hear my explanation?
    as the bible clearly says men did see god.
    this must mean that no one else has seen god in fullness as jesus had the full measure of the holyspirit.
    like, youve seen em, ya, but not REALLY SEEN HIM, not like jesus did.
    that word seen is "horao" just like the english word see. but also means to see with the mind.
    its saying that no one has seen god like jesus has seen him, you dont know him like jesus knew him.

    i have no grasp of scripture? or is it im just not a bit like you?
    im a heretic? or im diffrent than you?
    brother, i respect you for whatever you believe, ill never call you a heretic, even though i do think you are wrong.
    ill never attack you, ill never call you names, please respect me the same way.
     
  18. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    im sorry dude,
    all those men i named in my earlier post think they saw him, not his theophany, im taking their word for it, sorry man.

    "all of scripture must be taken totally literal if at all possible."
    finnis jennings dake.
     
  19. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +29
    Messianic
    Hey, Psalms 22.3, you got a Dakes Annotated Too? :eek: I didn't think anyone else ever heard of him. I'll tell you a story about mine when I am more awake. It's 3:30AM here now and even the Worship channel can't keep me awake any longer. :D
     
  20. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    YES I DO!
    IT IS ACROSS MY KNEE RIGHT NOW ACTUALLY!
    i love my bible.
    this thing cost my mom $80.00!
    but it is a sacrifice that i am willing to make. haha

    its the large print one, leather binded, weighs about 20 ibs! haha
    its huge! i love the thousands of and thousands of notes he has! from over 50 years of bible study!

    do you have any of his other books?
    like "gods plan for man"
    the equavilent of a 4 year bible college! and its taught by him! the most knowlegdeable and true bible man i know!
    i love this book so much! ive learned so much from it!

    or, "revelations expounded"?
    its explains the book of revelations, even though many say thats not possible.

    or "the rapture and second coming of jesus christ"?
    ive not read it yet. my mom has it still.

    i have all 3 of those.

    he has 2 or 3 more, but that were not available or i would have bought them too.
     
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