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Giants?...Sons of God?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by TheBear, Jan 19, 2002.

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  1. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Fire breathing behemoths(dragons or dinosaurs) are mentioned in Job 40 & 41. JOb 40:15-Behold now behemoth , which I made with thee, he eateth grass as an ox." 17"He moveth his tail like a cedar" 41:19'Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out."
    "The constellation of the dragon" is Strong's definition of "leviathan" which describes this behemoth in JOb 41. & elsewhere.
    NOt only did God curse the serpent as the Bible indicates, but Jesus also cursed a particular fig tree in Mark.11:14 & 21.
     
  2. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

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    Doc:

    http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/enoch.htm

    <snip> Then with the discovery of cave 4 of the Dead Sea Scrolls, seven fragmentary copies of the Aramaic text were discovered. <snip>

    Also:

    http://www.breadofangels.com/7qenoch/index.html
    (click on the link that says 'prologue')

    For a complete list of every single fragment and scroll deciphered:

    http://www.flash.net/~hoselton/deadsea/caves.htm (at the very bottom of the page there are links to each cave's identified scrolls and fragments.)

    Only fragments have been found, and the only full "book" to come is the one mentioned in the article on the first link, and that is the one that is disputed as being written much later. We may find it is true, but there isn't enough in the fragments found at Quram to be positive. :)
     
  3. thedoc

    thedoc New Member

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    his_saving_grace
    Not that I'm trying to prove anything about the book of enoch but I do have a reply. I typed it all up and accidently deleted it. :( I don't have time to respond again right now so check back later and I will retype it.
     
  4. thedoc

    thedoc New Member

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    Like one of your websites stated, 1 Enoch is separated into 5 separate sections.

    The Book of Enoch consists of 5 separate books that have been combined into one document: the Book of the Watchers (1-36), the Similtudes (Parables) of Enoch (37-71), the Astromonical Book (72-82), the Book of Dreams (83-90), and the Epistle of Enoch (91-107). including the Apocalypse of Weeks (93:1-10; 91:11-17). Aramaic fragments of all sections of the Book of Enoch except the Similtudes and the concluding discourse (108) have been found at Qumran. Four copies of the Astronomical Book were found (4Q208-211). Seven manuscripts contain fragments of the other sections of the Book of Enoch. 4QEna and 4QEnb (4Q201, 202) only contain fragments of the Book of the Watchers. 4QEnd and 4QEne (4Q205, 206) combine fragments of the Book of the Watchers, the Book of Dreams, and the end of the Epistle and the Book of Noah (104-107), 4QEnf (4Q207) contains a fragment of the Book of Dreams, and 4QEng (4Q212) consists of fragments of the Epistle.

    Here is the website that this excerpt came from.

    ***************************************
     
  5. Day

    Day New Member

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    CAM--

    Matthew 22:30 Jesus says,

    "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven."

    Just before this in Matthew 22:29 Jesus replies to the question of who will have the wife if seven brothers had her by saying,

    "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God."

    Anyone who is claiming that angels had sex is teaching the doctrine of demons. Repent.



     
  6. thedoc

    thedoc New Member

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    Genesis 6:4  ¶There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
    5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Jude 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    Matthew 12:43  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
    44  Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    45  Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

    Job 1:6  ¶Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
    7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
    8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

    Job 38:4  ¶Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
    5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
    6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
    7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
     
  7. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    The term "sons of God" appear abt 2-3 other times in the OT. They always refer to angels. So to be consistent, Gen 6 is refering to angels (fallen) too.

    The OT has several descriptions of giants too, some 13 ft tall, so this is undeniable proof of their existence then. We dont need to dig up bones to believe the Word.
     
  8. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

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    That would basically make Moses, the guy who wrote most of the first five books of our bible, as a teacher of the "doctrine of demons".

    Genesis 6:1-2 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

    Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward-- when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them.

    As can be seen, there is a difference between what is of God, and what is of men. But if we need further proof of who the "sons of God" were, both Job 1:6 in all versions of the bible (but the NIV), make the claim ".One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord..."

    And again in Job 2:1 "On another day the sons of God..."

    In both verses, the NIV version is very clear that "sons of God" are angels, since that is the word they put in there.

    It's fine if you decide you don't want to accept a version or interpretation of the bible, but it isn't fine to call something so clear from the bible as someone teaching "the doctrine of demons" when they quote the bible.
     
  9. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

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    TheDoc.

    That's OK, I wasn't trying to prove anything either. That was the reason I asked you where you got your information because everything I had seen said to the contrary. But I do have to ask you why you place so much faith in this person? He quotes not one reference source, and it appears he is very much into fantasy games since that is a major part to the recent additions. He also seems to have decided that Jesus did not decend into Hell. "Early accounts of Christ's mythic descent into hell during the three days between his crucifixion & resurrection."

    ( http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/index.asp )

    It also seems he is antagonistic against religion since the name of his site is "Delusions of Granduer".

    I understand that I am lacking information on whomever this person is, and his real input into these very important documents is unknown, but the lack of reference in ANY of his links insists of an unsupported personal belief, reguardless of the words and education level he uses in his descriptions. The sites I mentioned have all the major fragments of all the Quram scrolls and papyri show that only small fragments are found.

    While they are still working on the tens of thousands of tine fragments, all the larger and complete "pages" or whatever have already been identified, listed, and deciphered. This has all happened in the last 15 years since the 'officials' to have first access to these finds purposely kept the scrolls from being interpreted and becoming public domain out of personal greed and spite. If not for the death of one of the original group, and the accidental subsequent discovery of the parts he had transcribed being found in his library, and then published on the internet a little over 15 years ago, we would still be wanting in our knowledge.

    Barbara Theiring is one of those who worked lately on the transcribing of these fragments. She has placed a complete list of the fragments in her book "Jesus, The Man" and in a subsequent novel written and published last year by another author who had much of their information from Ms Theiring, which became a best seller called "The Blood and the Holy Grail".

    Since everything on the Dead Sea Scrolls written in the past 5 years has nothing of find of anything more that fragments of the Book of Enoch, I must go with the writings of those actually on site, instead of an unknown individual who also has decided to decide the proper interpretation of the Creation in Genesis (http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/religion/judaism_genesis.asp) as well as other faiths, I must consider this webmaster as an agnostic, or one who feels all religions are myths, and his writings reflect that belief.

    I am honestly hoping to find more information, but I can not take it from this person since he adds no credibility to his houghts by not informing one who he is, nor by giving the source for his information. To show why, I recently came across a site the the "scholar" was trying to prove that the Codex Sinaiticus was (discovered more than a century ago) a fruad simply because of the place it was found and the Monks lack of knowledge of the importance of the Codex. This book has been accepted by EVERY scholar as true because it matches almost exactly the other 4th century Codex in the hands of the Vatican (Codex Vaticanus) and also the Egyptian Codex.

    Is there any other places that you have this information from?
     
  10. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Matthew 25:41
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


    Revelation 12:9
    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Jude 1:6
    And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    Genesis 6:4
    There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
     
  11. thedoc

    thedoc New Member

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    His_Saving_Grace:

    I do have a book on the DSS that I use for reference. It's called "The Dead Sea Scrolls, A New Translation" by Michael Wise, Martin Abegg, JR., & Edward Cook. If you get a hold of it check out chapters 33 and 38 as they both deal directly with Enoch. I understand your skeptiscm about the topic. Most Christians that I talk to have never even heard about Enoch. Myself, I am always in search of the truth. I usually find though that the arguments against writings such as Enoch are formed out of ignorance, or the writings don't agree with whatever preconception that the reader had about whatever the topic is so they claim it is false. But, on the other hand, I don't think something should be accepted as truth from being published on one website. Personally I think that some form of Enoch was read as scripture during the time of Jesus and even read by Jesus. Wether or not the book of Enoch that we have today is that same work is yet to be proven. I also think that there is a lot of stuff that is being kept from the public that has come out of Qumran. I will keep posting any info that I can find about it. What website's have you read that refute Enoch?
     
  12. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Gen 6
    1 When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them,
    2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose.
    3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."
    4 The Nephilim [giants KJV] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

    The phrase "sons of God" appear three more times in the OT (Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7). In the OT, the "sons of God" always refer to angels, direct creations of God (let the Bible interpret the Bible). In Noah's case, it is fallen angels who disobeyed God and took on a physical form to breed with women. Is that possible? Did that happen? Yes.

    Jude 1:6
    And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;

    1 Pet 3:19,20
    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Heb 13:2
    Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

    2 Pet 2:4
    For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


    After the flood

    "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward".

    So, where in the OT (after the flood) are these Nephalim and Rephaim giants mentioned again?

    Answer - Goliath (1 Sa 17:4) and all the "-ite" and "-im" tribes. (Deu 2:10,21, Deu 3:11, Deu 9:2, Num 13:33)

    Examples of giants (1 cubit being about 0.5 m):

    1 Sa 17:4
    And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits [3 m] and a span.

    Deu 3:11
    (For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim [giants KJV]; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits [4.5 m] was its length, and four cubits [2 m] its breadth, according to the common cubit.)

    Num 13:32,33
    So they brought to the people of Israel an evil report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land, through which we have gone, to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people that we saw in it are men of great stature. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim); and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them."

    Goliath was about 3 m tall. King Og's bed was about 4.5 m long and 2 m wide. This should make him at least 3 m tall. No wonder the the Jews felt like "grasshoppers" compared to them.

    Gen 6:9
    ...Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.

    "blameless" here is "tamiyn" (Greek) - physically perfect/without blemish/100 per cent human. It does not mean morally perfect.


    Putting it all together

    1. Fallen angels had contaminated the human race by mating with human females who produced the giant Nephalim and Rephaim race. Why? Because Satan knew that the Saviour would come from a woman, and that He had to be fully man, not half man, half angelic. We see something similar to this happening again today - human cloning.

    2. God did us a favour by wiping out a contaminated human race. He wasn't being cruel when he sent the flood. And he saved Noah partly because he found only Noah "without blemish" ("tamiyn") - fully human.

    3. Later, after the flood, these giants surfaced again. Looks like some fallen angels did it again. That's why we read about God telling David to wipe out villages, not sparing women and children. This time, instead of a flood, God raised up Israelis like David to wipe them out. Again, God was not being cruel to human, but doing them a favour.

    4. What happened to those "sons of God" who did those terrible things?
    God has bounded them in chains and locked them up in a special place in hell called "tartarus".


    What happened to the fallen sons of God?

    Jude 1:6
    And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom [under darkness KJV] until the judgment of the great day;

    1 Pet 3:19,20
    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    2 Pet 2:4
    For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Greek "tartaros" - the deepest abyss of hell), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    What did Jesus do in 1 Pet 3:19? He was not preaching salvation to men who had died without Christ - as if He was giving the dead a second chance. No, he was essentially proclaiming to the fallen angels who were bound there in darkness: "You tried to stop the Son of Man from coming by contaminating the human race. But you have failed and I have triumphed!"

    These sons of God are still there, awaiting their day of judgement.
     
  13. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

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    Thanks for the book name. I will try and get it through ILL. Do you happen to know the Publishing date?

    As far as what you said about always searching for the truth, that actually applies to me too. The skeptisism is more because I can't feel right quoting a source (as the link posted before) without having some insight about the author. I have come across some sites that the author tries to act like they are very well informed, but in which they were actually telling lies. I found one site who swore that Codex Sinaiticus was apocryphal simply because the monks didn't know what it was and had been burning the pages. Apparently he also thought the vatican's version from the same century was a lie too. So rather than look the fool by repeating an unknowing source, I try and insure the authors credentials are as close to impecable as possible.

    The Book of Enoch WAS supposedly read in churches in the first few centuries, but those reading it was told not to use it as a teaching device, nor to allow others to read it, just the church leader was allowed to read it. Then it was banned sometime in the 4th century, and disappeared soon after that.

    Right now I am reading The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Jewish origens of christianity. by Carsten Peter Theide. (He is a papyrologist, and one of the leading authorities on the history and texts of the 1st century, while also working on the translations of many of the fragments in cave 7)

    He is also advancing the theory that the teachings of Jesus and the communal system in place in the christian church for the first 3 cenuries after the crucifixion were based on the Quram (and Esseane) way of life that started a few centuries before Christ. He is not the first person working on the translations who has advanced that theory, but he is one of the few who is advancing it without the conspirecy theories that the likes of Barbara Theiring and others have tried to set out from their translations.

    He (Mr Theide that is) has also tried to put to rest the "coverup" theories people are trying to place on the RCC about hiding of keeping certain scrolls found in the caves from the public. And he also points out that the scrolls were not really secret, since Eusebias and Origen both mention the scrolls and their locations in their writings. There was also a Bishop in 800 AD who also wrote about them (Timothy 1 was his bishop name) who also wrote about them (to a friend named Sergius/Mar Sargis" and told him about finding some psalms that are found in the syric bible but had never before been seen written in Hebrew or Greek. The total of the Psalms he mentions are over 200 of Davids, and also a few psalms of Joshua, as well as Thanksgiving psalms and a few othhers. These had all been in the Syric OT bible, but had never before been found in the other languages, so they were never included being called apocryphal. Now we know they should have been in our bible, along with the many more chapters of Isaiah that were also found repeatedly in Quram's caves.

    So apparently, the caves HAD been raided before and some of the texts had been removed in the centuries following the demise of this group of jews that was named Esseanes. The Book odf Enoch could very well be one of them, and the one brought back may be completely true. But they are still arguing that point, but no longer arguing the point that the caves have been raided quite a few times throughout history. And what was taken out may never be found again unless they were preserved perfectly, which is highly doubtful.

    As to your questions about the websites refuting Enoch, I will honestly have to go and try and find them again. Mostly it was from books I got my info, but I had quite a few websites bookmarked before my PC went down. Now I am on my backup Apple/Mac, and of course, nothing was in my bookmarks here since I never put this one online. That's the shame of not having a paper copy of everything too. Anyway, I WILL try and find some, but please allow me a bit of time since this computor is quite a bit slower and my children still use it to do reports for school.

    TTYS
     
  14. thedoc

    thedoc New Member

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    Just a note. I sent an email to the author of the Enoch article on that website. ( ***************** She was able t...Any suggestions? URL removed by solo66 man
     
  15. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

    43
    +1
    The book I mentioned I am reading now is dated the year 2000. It also mentions quite a few papers written by those working on the fragments that weren't published at the time of his writing, giving us some insight into those also. It also mentions another discovery in 1996 of more scrolls that I hadn't heard about. Normally I write down notes, but I read that so early in the morning that I forgot exactly where it is in the book. I will scan through it later on today and ask you about them later today or tomorrow, God permitting. He doesn't mention exactly what they say, but only a quick synopsis, so I will be looking for more information online.

    If you are interested in the DSS, the official site is;

    http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/

    The Orion Center (I believe you already know this, but this is for anyone else looking to check into it) is the official name of the group os people working on piecing together all the information of the DSS and the interpretaions of them.
     
  16. hankfarmer

    hankfarmer New Member

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    There is talk of the Nephilim; a race that apparently did exist, however for one, some or another reason were obliterated. Legend holds it that Goliath was either a descendant or indeed from the Nephilim.

    If I were you I would cross-reference with other historical sources from mythology and classical history.

    HF
     
  17. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,638
    Atheist
    Private
    bump
     
  18. Job_38

    Job_38 <font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

    +1
    Never mind. I wrote the wrong thing.
     
  19. Utah Knight

    Utah Knight A friend to all Supporter

    +1,461
    Non-Denom
    Single
    giants were the neplem and they got destroyied in the great flood the angels wanted human women so they left heaven and mated with them so they were jelious of humans and human wants
     
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