Gay Conversion Therapy

[Inkfingers]

You're not God, and you're not my pastor or even my friend. So I can't say I care one bit what you have to say. There's a word for people who butt into other people's business and try to lecture them: jerks.

Do you care what the Bible says?

Romans 1:24-28

 

[Virginian]

Get out of the streets and classrooms, and keep it in your bedroom as you previously stated,that would be a start!

Most gay people are no more outwardly gay than straight people are outwardly straight. If straights can be obviously straight in the streets and classrooms, we have every right to do the same.

 

[Virginian]

Do you care what the Bible says?

Romans 1:24-28

Sure, but I don't care one bit about how you interpret what it says.

 

[Inkfingers]

Sure, but I don't care one bit about how you interpret what it says.

Ah, right, its only an interpretation when it described men engaging in sex acts with other men as "vile passions" and "against nature".

Or, you just find an excuse for sin.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Most gay people are no more outwardly gay than straight people are outwardly straight. If straights can be obviously straight in the streets and classrooms, we have every right to do the same.

Except that a broken mating instinct is not equal to a correctly functioning one, so no, there is no right.

The reason perverts of any stripe are always shouting how equal they are is because of the burning, inextinguishable conviction that they are not.

 

[Virginian]

Except that a broken mating instinct is not equal to a correctly functioning one, so no, there is no right.

People have a right to live differently than you do, to have different values that you do, to believe different things that you do. I have a right to be "openly gay" in public, no matter how you feel about it.

The reason perverts of any stripe are always shouting how equal they are is because of the burning, inextinguishable conviction that they are not.

The only way I am not equal to you is that the law protects you in some situations that it does not protect me.

 

[KarateCowboy]

People have a right to live differently than you do, to have different values that you do, to believe different things that you do. I have a right to be "openly gay" in public, no matter how you feel about it.

Sure sure. And we have a right to openly disgusted by it, and openly protest it. No matter how you feel about it. Our homonausea is part of who we are.

The only way I am not equal to you is that the law protects you in some situations that it does not protect me.

Well, that, and I don't defile myself by engaging in aberrosexual perversity.

 

[SilverBear]

This is just false. The Jones & Yarhouse study, the best and most rigorous to date, found a meaningful decrease in attraction for some members of the group. It also did not find any evidence of harm. So yes, at least in some cases, you can "pray the SSA away".

"These results do not prove that categorical change in sexual orientation is possible for everyone or anyone" Jones SL, Yardhouse MA "A longitudinal study of attempted religiously mediated sexual orientation change.




the Jones and Yarhouse study did not examine in any way the efficacy of reparative therapy or any other kind of psychological therapy as a means of altering sexual orientation. The participants in the study were involved in religiously based support groups which primarily had as a goal to reinforce a traditional moral view of sexuality. The study did not assess the role of professional therapy and cannot legitimately be used to say such therapies work.

23% of the participants remaining in the study labeled their experience as “conversion” from a homosexual orientation to a heterosexual one. However, let’s look at how the authors described the starting point for this group of changers on average. On a seven point scale with seven being completely homosexuality, the group averaged a 5.09 rating which Jones and Yarhouse described in their book as “’largely homosexual, but more than incidental heterosexual’ attraction.” At the third assessment of sexual attraction, the authors reported that the rating had dropped to 1.55. This group rated themselves as having moved toward the heterosexual side of the continuum. On the Kinsey scale used to assess the attractions, the average score fell between the “exclusively heterosexual” and “largely heterosexual, but incidental homosexual” ratings. An alternative way of describing the outcome is that the participants went from one end of the bisexual spectrum to the other. On average, the group rating indicated both heterosexual and homosexual attractions at the beginning, middle and end of the study.


Jones and Yarhouse looked at 98 participants in the Exodus International ex-gay ministries. Of these they identify 11 individuals who "changed sexual orientation"

In a footnote on page 220 they acknowledge that one of the "successes" recanted his claim of changed orientation, but they continued to refer to him as a success.

Two other male "successes" admits to still having “unwanted sexual attraction to men” (p. 297)

Four of the participants who Jones and Yarhouse claim changed orientation acknowledge they have not changed but are simply celibate. (p. 303)

and the last 4 participants n ever identified as homosexual in the first place. (P.263)


So no one in the Jones Yarhouse study changed orientaton

 

[SilverBear]

Actually, per the guy who had it removed from the DSM (Dr. Nicolas Cummings) it was removed for political reasons.

False. Homosexuality was removed from the DSM by the nomenclature committee and the APA board of trustees.

The APA's Nomenclature Committee went through an 11-month process by preparing a report recommending the change in DSM-II. This process was open to any APA member and in the course of the 11 months 78 different experts were called on to present evidence and research. The committee specifically invited most vocal opponents of the change, Charles Socarides, Irving Bieber, and Robert McDevitt, to present research and evidence. While all three attended meetings they presented no research. Instead they chose to complain how the this was a political move not a scientific one.


At the end of this process the APA's Council on Research and Development unanimously recommended deletion of homosexuality from DSM-II. Next, it was taken to the Assembly of District Branches, where it was again approved. The next step was the APA Reference Committee, composed of the heads of the various APA councils and the president-elect. The Reference Committee endorsed the proposal, leaving the approval of the board of trustees at the December meeting as the final step.

Then the APA Board of Trustees again invited , Charles Socarides, Irving Bieber, and Robert McDevitt, to present their case a third time on December 10, 1973. Bieber restated the old theories without presenting data to support them. Socarides and McDevitt complained that the change in classification was motivated by politics, not by scientific studies. Socarides and McDevitt were asked once again to present scientific studies supporting their view of homosexuality as a pathology. They could not produce any. Following those presentations, the Board of Trustees met in executive session and voted to approve the removal of homosexuality from DSM-II.

and here is where as Dr. Cummings notes politics enters the picture.

Socarides and Bieber found a by-law provision designed to provide some democratic control over the association's corporate life, and then forced a petition demanding a
referendum of the Association's membership.

So the very people accusing the APA of capitulating to politics were the ones playing politics

 

[David Brider]

Sure sure. And we have a right to openly disgusted by it, and openly protest it. No matter how you feel about it. Our homonausea is part of who we are.

Can I try a little thought experiment? Say you see a person, maybe Virginian himself, walking down the street. That person is gay, and you - somehow - know that that person is gay.

Questions: what exactly are you disgusted by? How does that disgust manifest itself? What exactly do you want to protest about?

Well, that, and I don't defile myself by engaging in aberrosexual perversity.

In fairness, you don't know if Virginian does...

 

[David Brider]

Really? What is it about? Baking?

Keep your silly accusations to yourself.

The amount of sexual activity that the average married couple, same-sex or opposite-sex, engage in is so tiny as to be virtually irrelevant compared to all the other things they do. So no, it's not *all* about sex. *Some* of it's about sex, but nowhere near *all*.

That's not a silly accusation; it's just commonsense

 

[David Brider]

Down that path is found heresy and apostasy, so I will leave you to it.

Ah, the path of reading the Bible for what it actually says instead of taking other people's word for it is apostasy and heresy. Right...

 

[David Brider]

Ah, right, its only an interpretation when it described men engaging in sex acts with other men as "vile passions" and "against nature".

Or, you just find an excuse for sin.

No, a lot of our understanding of the Bible is down to how we interpret it, on a wide range of issues, which is why there are so many doctrinal disagreements between the various denominations.

For example, reading the full text of Romans 1 - 2, instead of just a handful of verses, gives a rather different take on things than the standard "homosexuality is wrong" line.

 

[Inkfingers]

For example, reading the full text of Romans 1 - 2, instead of just a handful of verses, gives a rather different take on things than the standard "homosexuality is wrong" line.

I'd like to see how you spin same-sex sex acts as anything other than "against nature" and "shameful lusts"....

You are finding excuses for sin and do not give a stuff on what I or the Bible say if such disagree. You have been warned of your sin, there is no point trying to convince you further (that's the Holy Spirit's job).

 

[David Brider]

I'd like to see how you spin same-sex sex acts as anything other than "against nature" and "shameful lusts"....

Here would not be the best place for it, as it would undoubtedly go against forum rules (which I think we're already skating close to as it is). If you're really interested, feel free to drop me a PM.

You are finding excuses for sin and do not give a stuff on what I or the Bible say if such disagree. You have been warned of your sin, there is no point trying to convince you further (that's the Holy Spirit's job).

No, I'm not finding excuses for sin. I'm just trying to read the Bible for what it says, rather than what other people say it says - I've found there's quite a discrepancy between the former and the latter on occasions.

I'm particularly amused that you think "same-sex sex acts" is "my sin", since I've never engaged in a same-sex sex act in my life...

 

[KCfromNC]

Get out of the streets and classrooms, and keep it in your bedroom as you previously stated,that would be a start!

Is this for all marriages, or just same-sex ones?

 

[KCfromNC]

I feel the same way about homosexual LGBT curriculmn being pushed upon innocent children in kindergarten public classrooms, 100% abusive!

Too bad there's actual evidence for only one of the claims while the other is pure opinion.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The reason perverts of any stripe are always shouting how equal they are is because of the burning, inextinguishable conviction that they are not.

Or... It could be because of how they've been treated unequally. Ya know, like blacks, women, and other minorities who made similar claims.

 

[KCfromNC]

I don't see why I should accept that I have to meet them.

Huh? No one is forcing you to meet anyone.

We know from this thing called objective reality that feelings do not dictate reality, and that the satisfaction with their own bodily mutilation is part of their mental illness. Convince me why I'm NOT in a position to question their feelings.

You can feel whatever you like. Those feelings just don't count as evidence of the effectiveness of a medical treatment.

 

[KCfromNC]

Except that a broken mating instinct is not equal to a correctly functioning one, so no, there is no right.

The reason perverts of any stripe are always shouting how equal they are is because of the burning, inextinguishable conviction that they are not.

The important thing to remember, though, is that Christians love the sinner.

 

[KCfromNC]

23% of the participants remaining in the study labeled their experience as “conversion” from a homosexual orientation to a heterosexual one.

Wait, wait, wait. This is just a survey of patient opinions? I was confidently assured that these were meaningless a few pages back.