Gay Conversion Therapy

[Zoii]

Can you prove it wrong with a reputable source?

Hermaphrodite is found in "Greek Mythology"

Youve already been provided reputable sresources but you seem to have trouble either reading them or acknowledging them.

You state humans are male or female - so what defines male or female - genitals? - gender chromosomes eg male = XY or female XX?

Humans can be born with both a penis and a vagina or a set of genitals that are indistinguishable - so theres that

Humans can be born with gender chromosomes that are neither XX or XY eg XXY or a myriad of other patterns

Now I know from your other previous posts you will go nope - male or female because thats how you are but this is more for other readers with a objective minds.

 

[Zoii]

My interest in this topic is why is gay conversion is even attempted. Being gay in itself is it a sin?

Romans 1 26:28 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

In a nutshell the bible does not condone homosexual sexual acts

Jude 1: 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Again the bible does not condone homosexual sexual acts or straight sexual acts outside of marriage. Perversion isnt defined though.

Now this then isnt about homosexuality - its about homosexual sex. Even heterosexual men are known to have committed sodomy or other sexual acts with men or animals. You dont have to be homosexual to commit a homosexual act... ie its well known that men may not be same sex attracted but will commit a same-sex sexual act

So I note theres been a lot of innaccurate comments about how god hates homosexuals etc etc - imo thats innaccurate - he does not condone a same sex sexual act regardless of ones sexual attraction ie straight bi or gay.

On that basis why is there a focus on not being gay - should the focus be on straight men/women and gay men/women not committing a same-sex sexual act.

In any case I dont support any of it and tend to think regardless of what you are thats noone elses business...thats another issue again.

 

[grasping the after wind]

The government has a vested interest in the health and well being of all it's citizens. as such there are many laws protecting the individual from fraudulent medical procedures either in the application of them (voluntary or not) or the promoting of them. There is a reason why there are no more traveling snake oil sales men and there is a reason why lobotomies are no longer considered a treatment for homosexuality.

You may or may not realize this but I reject that argument because I do not assume that the government has the right to overrule the decisions of the individual in matters concerning the individual's personal physical health and mental well being unless the individual can be seen to be directly harming another person. I find it a bit perplexing that people do believe that a government ought to be able to tell an adult citizen who I would say has an overriding vested interest in their own health and well being much greater than any government that they cannot seek treatment for themselves in the manner they see fit. If one could show that government was wiser than the individual perhaps a case could be made. I have seen no evidence to suggest that that is the case.

 

[grasping the after wind]

e.g. Satisfaction With Male-to-Female Gender Reassignment Surgery: Results of a Retrospective Analysis

A survey? Really. Forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

 

[SilverBear]

You may or may not realize this but I reject that argument because I do not assume that the government has the right to overrule the decisions of the individual in matters concerning the individual's personal physical health and mental well being unless the individual can be seen to be directly harming another person.

Snake handling, illicit and illegal drugs, lobotomies, children's cough syrup laced with morphine, mercury skin ointment...there is a huge list of medical treatments and procedures that once commonplace are now illegal.

I find it a bit perplexing that people do believe that a government ought to be able to tell an adult citizen who I would say has an overriding vested interest in their own health and well being much greater than any government that they cannot seek treatment for themselves in the manner they see fit. If one could show that government was wiser than the individual perhaps a case could be made. I have seen no evidence to suggest that that is the case.

and if the practitioners of your favored form of treatment are lying to you about it's effectiveness and it's safety you wouldn't be outraged that the FDA didn't intervene.

 

[KCfromNC]

A survey? Really. Forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

Not my problem if you want to ignore evidence.

 

[hedrick]

There are times when surveys make sense and times when it doesn't. If you want to know whether something is true, taking a poll of the general public is typically not a reasonable approach. But if you want to know whether people are satisfied by something they did, it's hard to avoid asking them.

 

[KarateCowboy]

A survey? Really. Forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

Not my problem if you want to ignore evidence.

Rating their own "satisfaction with" genital mutilation is a pretty weird way to measure if said mutilation is a good idea. I mean, you're talking about people who hated their own, healthy bodies. It's demented, for sure. I mean, in a sense, the very illness they have is that they're unsatisfied with a healthy, normal body.

 

[Zoii]

I do not assume that the government has the right to overrule the decisions of the individual in matters concerning the individual's personal physical health and mental well being ............ If one could show that government was wiser than the individual perhaps a case could be made. I have seen no evidence to suggest that that is the case.

I can give you loads of examples where the government had to step in to override because it had greater wisdom than the individual when it came to health

Example one: wearing seat belts
Example two: compulsorily requiring individuals to be quarantined because they have a serious communicable disease eg Ebola
Example 3: Overriding parents who refuse to provide medical treatment to their children on the basis of religious conviction.
Example 4: Implementing traffic laws to prevent you from speeding


Ok you get the picture. Conversion therapy isnt evidence based. But to pick up on your point - if an adult is competent to make a decision for themselves than they should be able to exercise their autonomy. That however should not apply to children or the parents capacity to enforce non-evidence based physical/psychological therapy on their child.

 

[mindlight]

The recent legislation in Australia that amended the marriage act to include Same Sex Marriage has fostered renewed interest within religious communities concerning "Conversion Therapy" with one side of the debate arguing it provides parents with a resource, while the other side argues there's no efficacy evidence and that it fosters greater psychological harm.

Gay conversion therapy's deep roots in Australia

Not sure about the particular therapy. But it would be a very sad day if someone was told they could no longer seek assistance for a change they themselves wanted.

 

[SilverBear]

Not sure about the particular therapy. But it would be a very sad day if someone was told they could no longer seek assistance for a change they themselves wanted.

and if the change they wanted was a double amputation?

 

[Zoii]

and if the change they wanted was a double amputation?

I think what he means is - if your a consenting informed and mentally competent adult, then ethically you have the autonomy to exercise self-determination regardless of our debate on whether conversion therapy has any merit.
That's not the case for minors though who are not legally competent, and should not be subjected to any form of treatment that is not endorsed as being either medically or psychologically ethical, evidence based and possessing efficacy.

I do take your point though - Can we say OK fine do this treatment albeit it has no evidence of merit and may well be harmful..... when we refuse such autonomy when people express a desire to self euthanase for incurable illnesses.

 

[KCfromNC]

Rating their own "satisfaction with" genital mutilation is a pretty weird way to measure if said mutilation is a good idea. I mean, you're talking about people who hated their own, healthy bodies. It's demented, for sure. I mean, in a sense, the very illness they have is that they're unsatisfied with a healthy, normal body.

For some reason you think that your opinion matters after railing against a survey measuring the opinion of the people who had the surgery. Weird double standard.

 

[KarateCowboy]

For some reason you think that your opinion matters after railing against a survey measuring the opinion of the people who had the surgery. Weird double standard.

Oh yes, such much railing. Rail rail rail. Like a rail gun.
All right so, I believe that there is a meaningful difference between the judgment of the mentally healthy and sane and that of the mentally ill -- particularly when the illness is the impairment of the judgment of the ill individual. If you see no difference then I can see how you could consider that a double standard. On the one hand it's pretty frightening to see people thinking that way. On the other hand, it's hard to believe anyone seriously does.

 

[Mayzoo]

Your wikipedia article is not even close to hermaphrodite.

Hermaphrodite is a mythological concept that is both male and female, and actually could procreate within itself.

Penis, vagina, eggs, sperm,

hermaphrodite
[her-maf´ro-dīt]
an individual with hermaphroditism, presence of tissue of both male and female gonads; the ovaries and testes may bepresent as separate organs, or ovarian and testicular tissue may be combined in the same organ (ovotestis).

hermaphrodite

No mention of self procreation.

 

[mindlight]

I think what he means is - if your a consenting informed and mentally competent adult, then ethically you have the autonomy to exercise self-determination regardless of our debate on whether conversion therapy has any merit.
That's not the case for minors though who are not legally competent, and should not be subjected to any form of treatment that is not endorsed as being either medically or psychologically ethical, evidence based and possessing efficacy.

I do take your point though - Can we say OK fine do this treatment albeit it has no evidence of merit and may well be harmful..... when we refuse such autonomy when people express a desire to self euthanase for incurable illnesses.

The thing is these techniques only work when the individual is cooperating with the process. Quantifying cooperation with statistics is hard to do. So the bad rep and stats comes from people who are being forced to do this immense and often painful change without their consent or cooperation. Just because they failed to commit to a process which required consent does not overthrow the process itself

Since such a change is possible for those who desire it just as the hetero - homo change is also possible it would be a violation of a persons freedom if the possibility was not available to them.

 

[Zoii]

The thing is these techniques only work when the individual is cooperating with the process. Quantifying cooperation with statistics is hard to do. So the bad rep and stats comes from people who are being forced to do this immense and often painful change without their consent or cooperation. Just because they failed to commit to a process which required consent does not overthrow the process itself

Since such a change is possible for those who desire it just as the hetero - homo change is also possible it would be a violation of a persons freedom if the possibility was not available to them.

I,m not informed enough to dispute what you say. What I can say though is that those practising conversion have not been able to show longitudinal objective evidence of any merit. On the contrary it has faced considerable complaints.

 

[Inkfingers]

The Bible does not recognise "being gay".

It recognises acts.

 

[KCfromNC]

All right so, I believe that there is a meaningful difference between the judgment of the mentally healthy and sane and that of the mentally ill

That's nice. People believe lots of things. I still don't see why I should accept that you're in a position to question the feelings of people you've never met.

 

[SilverBear]

The thing is these techniques only work when the individual is cooperating with the process. Quantifying cooperation with statistics is hard to do. So the bad rep and stats comes from people who are being forced to do this immense and often painful change without their consent or cooperation. Just because they failed to commit to a process which required consent does not overthrow the process itself

Since such a change is possible for those who desire it just as the hetero - homo change is also possible it would be a violation of a persons freedom if the possibility was not available to them.

Sorry that just isn't true. Even studies done internally at ex-gay religious programs using strictly adults committed to the process show the same if not worse results. No one changes orientation, not even among adults fully committed to the idea of conversion. Sadly the potential for harm is much much worse for these people. When your motivations for participation are based on your faith - what happens to that faith when you realize that no, you can't pray the gay away?