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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
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    Yeah..:eek:

    Kinda gives me that deer caught in the headlights look..lol.

    Would you mind addressing how the two witnesses are resurrected from the dead ? And also i'm not sure if it has anything to do with the discussion, in Ezekiel where the dry bones are given life. ( i think, i dont have my Bible in front of me )
     
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    The Messenger,

    God bless.

    I really can't believe that you are still using Gal 4 to prop up your views that you have redemption (which you do not have according to Gal 5:5; Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30; Luke 21:28; Gal 4:5,9-12; 4:19-21; 5:1-5).

    And, you're still using Romans 8 to prop up some SECOND redemption/adoption thousands of years apart from and different than the Gal 4 adoption/redeemption (gasp!), which you call a first "spiritual one" in your system of eschatology. Yet Eph 1:13-14/4:30 lists your "spiritual" one (i.e., believing and being filled with the Holy Spirit) and calls it an "EARNEST of the redemption," and not the redemption! Eph 1:13-14 shows that you only have the EARNEST of the redemption but you do NOT have redemption (Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30), which is also why you can't go to Heaven in your eschatology until some future second coming perhaps thousands of years away (a point that you admit).

    Preterists have the redemption and not a mere earnest of it. Preterists have an opened Heaven teeming with joyous saints and departed loved ones.
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    :)

    Did you look up the references and follow who the martyrs were that St. John was talking about? They were all St John's beloved associates and beloved flock who he had seen and heard the many reports of being martyred in his generation. It was the bunch that Jesus had foretold to John that would die martyrs in his own generation, including the apostles (Matt 23:34-38; Luke 21:12-16; Matt 10:16-18; Rev 17:6). It was not some way off far distant event into the future that St. John was unconnected to, but rather the apostles and Church members of his own time that he was intimately connected with -- those were the martyrs discussed in Rev 6 and 20. Revelation, according to St. John, pertained to his generation and his original audience to whom he dispatched the vision, MARKED "URGENT" (Rev 1:1; 1:3; 22:6-7; 22:10-11).
     
  4. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
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    Hi Susan, nice to meet you. I am sorry that you feel this way about Christians who hold the preterist view. I too once disagreed with it, and very adamantly. I know I am a new poster here but I have followed the conversatons at this board for a little while now. This is a discussion forum, and I appreciate the freedom we have here to post our ideas, beliefs, complaints, etc. You may see preterists as "attacking" futurist threads, but all they are doing is expressing their ideas of what certain "End Times" scriptures mean to them, and you are free to do the same.

    If you do not respond to preterist threads, that is your choice. Two of the three preterist threads on page #1 have had responses by futurists, so some futurists here do enjoy discussing the validity (or lack thereof) of the preterist viewpoint. If you dislike our interpretation of scripture and do not want us replying to threads you start then simply make that clear in your initial post. But please don't try to create a segregation policy on this forum: these threads on the prophecy board are only for Futurists, those threads are only for Preterists; this water fountain is for Futurists only, that water fountain is for Preterists only; you stay on your side of the bus, and we'll stay on ours.

    In the past two days I have seen threads started by futurists with titles ranging from "Don’t disrupt”, Insanity, “Caution”, “ignore”. I have yet to see any preterist creating an entire thread solely to warn Christians to stay away from futurists ideas, or caution newcomers about the dangers of the ever-shifting, ever-changing interpretations of dispensationalism, which is the new kid on the Christian block. I have yet to see a thread started by a preterist requesting that all futurists stop posting their futurist ideas on preterist threads.

    This is a discussion forum. A "discussion forum". Why can we not discuss our eschatological ideas, volitile though they may be at times, without talk of "attacks", "unholy wars", and other such inflammatory rhetoric. If preterists begin to stray from the original topic of a thread and introduce new ones then the poster who started the thread or a moderator should correct the preterist (or anyone that strays) and keep the conversation on track. Why can't we simply discuss our ideas, and disagree if we have to? What is so threatening about that?

    As the astute Rodney King once put it: "Can't we all just get along?" :)

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  5. Aman GW NOW that is a biblical fact. :clap:
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Bear,
    This is a very good assessment. Most of the Bible isn't any longer needed, in their view. The fact is, that preterists have faith in very little, because they eliminate, explain away, or totally trash what we were told to believe in the scriptures. This is why I called it the "Doubting Thomas Theory". Believe it or not, I was trying to be polite when I made that statement.

    I stayed away from this Forum for 2 days, so I could reflect on my true fealings about this. I will not apologize for what I still believe is the truth. I also didn't know if I would still be a member of this Forum when I returned. I wasn't trying to point fingers in this thread, but certain things must be approached and exposed. I see that I have not been BANNED yet, but, I am not finished yet either. I will not, and can not in truth, take a back seat to lies and deception. While I was away for those two days, I believe the Lord gave me another little clue. I will risk being BANNED if necessary, because I believe that if something is not done soon, this Forum will no longer even exist. This may even be the goal of the Preterists.

    One thing is VERY CLEAR to me. After the arguing, and confusion they bring, in trying to convert all those who believe and have faith in what the Lord promised His church, there is really only one thing that they bring to the table. I can sum it up in a single word - DIVISION. That might not seam so bad, not on the outside anyway, but let me show you what the Lord revealed to me.

    I will now go back to one of the verses I quoted in the first post of this thread. Let's re-visit Jude verse 19, and then I want to add another one,(verse 16).

    Jude :19 - "These are the men who (divide) you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the spirit."
    Jude :16 - "These men are grumblers and fault finders; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage."

    Sound familiar?? Hello!! But that is not what the Lord revealed to me. I will now get to that. Let's take a closer look at this little word "division". It comes from the spirit of anti-christ. It is my humble opinion, that (some)
    here, and I chose that word very carefully, are part of a CULT. There are wolves among us sheep. Now, that said, back to this division.

    From the very beginning, the Lord commanded Adam to be fruitful and multiply. So beind fruitful would be to increase in number. Jesus also said that we could be recongnized by our fruit. Does that mean that we should act nice, NO. Does it mean that everyone will think we are wonderful, NO. It was all about advansing His Kingdom. What were we told to do with our talents?? Are we to squash everyone who doesn't believe like us, NO again. My friends, what is the opposite of multiplication?? You guessed it, the answer is division. Now I ask you another question, what is the purpose for Preterists to join this Forum, especially after they say that they don't believe that we are in the End Times?? They don't want you to believe it either. Be very careful my friends and loved ones. Satan is very deceiving and he is still roaming around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Notice that I said, "like a roaring lion"?? He is an imposter, and we will know him by his fruit, or lack of.

    Now I realize, that some may consider this post very dis-tasteful, and take offense to it. I also realize that I may have just crossed the line and be "banned". So, I would just like to add one more thing before I go. It was a real joy talking and learning with most of you. I realize that my words weren't always nice, and we had some misunderstandings along the path on our journey. For that, I truely apologize, and hope you won't hold it against me, as I too, forgive ALL feelings that some held against me. If I no longer am welcome on this Forum after this post, I will look forward to meeting you all in heaven one day soon, and telling all of our war stories on the earth. Remember, we are soldiers in the Lords Army. Keep the faith. We should always press on, towards the higher goal, and help our brothers when they get weary, and pick them up when they fall. Maranatha
     
  7. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Susan, and others:

    There really isn't a "Thread Police," and nothing in the Forum Rules about "sticking to one viewpoint" in each thread.

    This is a place for discussion, for the exchange of ideas, for the interaction amongst people. And in Physics, we learn that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  8. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hi Susan,
    I believe your concerns are valid. The preterists are like a fish out of water here. I too, see troulble ahead if this continues. The Catholics have their own Forum, and I believe the Preterists need their own, worse than the Catholics do. This is like putting the jews on the same forum as the muslims. It just won't work. It's funny how many like to claim Jesus name as there head. Jesus said that many would come in His name, but we can recognize them by their fruit. I never tasted any fruit that tasted like an onion. But this is where we are heading.
     
  9. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    FYI Thunder:

    Catholics were given their own forum, because of the bashing that occurs on the boards when people make a concentrated effort to "make them see the error of their ways." It is a place where the members can be educated about the Catholic faith, and also a haven where they can discuss matters of Catholicism amongst themselves without being open to potshots.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  10. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
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    Private
    Dear friends,

    I have prayed to God this morning to help me with this letter. I am deeply troubled by the preterist, and know with-in my soul that they present a danger. How can such pleasant words, of completion of the promises of Jesus, possibly be wrong? The story they tell is one of triumph and joy. I need the Spirit to use me this morning ... for I myself do not understand. Please tell us of this danger??

    People speak in words. They write on paper. They type on keyboards that produce their words on computers and into the life’s of others far removed from their physical world. Words are a wonderful tool given for expression. The preterist on this board have a good command of language, and they understand how to convey what they wish for you to believe. They tell of a world where Christ reigns with no interference from Satan. They speak to you of this time as when all things have been renewed. They warm your heart by taking away fear of the unknown. They tell you that you will not have to live through a time of trial. The Earth will never be ravished by nuclear war. Their words are sweet as honey to your troubled minds.

    Their message is to take NO heed to the warning in your Bibles. They are history books of another time and place and are not meant for you. The Antichrist is killed already. The mark is not to be. You can let down our guard now. Christ has returned. Satan is gone. The Antichrist is history. How then can a mark be anything at all?

    All words do not speak of truth. You need to filter out the lies from reality. The preterist can make their views appear enticing. But you are far more knowledgeable worldly, than their narrow opinions. You only need empathy for others to know that you are not living in the New World that Christ promised. Keep up the fight. Your struggle is far from over. Things will get worse. I know that, this is not what you wish to hear. But Hold on to the truth that Jesus will return. Do not let no man deceive you. Do not let anyone take away your heavenly rights!!

    Matthew 24: 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

    I WILL KEEP YOU FOREVER IN MY PRAYERS.

    :) LOVE

    PS. I am going to be absent from this board for a short time. I will be back soon.
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
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    Hello VOW,
    I see nothing wrong with that. Maybe they could do the same for the Preterists?? But if something isn't done, I believe this forum has disaster written all over it.
     
  12. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
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    Married
    To Thunder:

    Dr Loh is hesitant to create any more "special" forums...his desire is to promote unity, not fracturing. I suggest you send him a PM and discuss the subject more fully with him.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  13. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    >>I am deeply troubled by the preterist

    Why are you deeply troubled?

    Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

    The word IF here is a key word. IF it were possible, but, it is not possible. The reason it is not possible is that the elect are lead by the Holy Spirit of God.

    That is why when we teach, we work with the Holy Spirit of God to help people to "discover" truth for themselves. It is the Holy Spirit of Grace & Truth who instructs, comforts, strengthens, teaches, and guides people on their way back to God. Jesus was a great teacher, but the teacher of the Holy Spirit can do a divine work in our lives to transform us. We need the water of the word, but we also need the fire of the Holy Spirit to purify us.

    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    If you have been baptised with the Holy Ghost and with Fire, then you have nothing to worry about. We are son's of God, because we are lead not by man, but by the Holy Spirit of God.

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
     
  14. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi rollinTHUNDER,

    There's disaster written all over this forum? Just because people have different viewpoints shouldn't stop people from discussing them. Again, there are 4 major views on the end times, so if I were an idealists sharing my point of view, would I suddenly be disrupting things? Or what if I were a historicists? Would I be disrupting things just by sharing my point of view?

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  15. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    here is another biblical FACT

    Paul had this redemption pre 70ad as do i now

    Colossians 1:13-15
    He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son , in whom we have redemption , the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;

    Galatians 3:13
    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us --for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree" --

    are you NOW in your immortal glorifed body? if not(and i really do not think so) your waiting on it just like the rest of us. your going to die one day, just like the rest of us.
     
  16. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
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    Thank you, VOW and Hoonbaba, for your excellent points. Voices of reason, I must say.

    Thunder, for crying out loud, Christians that believe the preterist viewpoint are Christians! I'm a Christian. I've known Jesus practically my whole life. Anytime you put people together that disagree on an issue there is going to be tension at times as well as friction. Go to any number of the forums here (Roundtable, One Bread, Interfaith, Workshop, etc) and you're going to find people with very closely held beliefs that are going to disagree with you - sometime vehemently. Heck, that is the case with any Christian discussion forum you go to on the internet. End Times here is no exception.

    The bottom line is this: this is an "End Times" forum, and both preterism and futurism encompass End Times eschatology. So preterists are not going anywhere. If you want to talk about "fruit", the most divisive threads and attitudes I've seen on this forum have come from my brothers and sisters who are futurists.

    Any future disaster that is "coming" to this forum is the one you bring yourself. The fact that numerous people are objecting to sharing ideas here is scary.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Based on John the Bear's previous posts about the validity of debating preterism on these threads, I'd have to say that I highly doubt he would recommend banning preterist discussion. He seems to be adamately against promoting a "preaching to the choir" attitude of seperation here, and for that he has earned emmense respect from me and should IMO be applauded by all on this board.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  18. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
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    Married
    Before coming to this board, I had never heard of Preterists. In reading about the Preterists beliefs, I am reminded of a time when I studied with the Jehovah Witnesses and later, the Mormons. In order to understand their beliefs, you almost have to empty your mind and heart of anything you have ever been taught before. And that is a scarey thing to do, and can make you vulnerable to false teachings.

    Beware of any doctrine that comes to you in the name of Jesus, and then requires you to revamp almost all of your beliefs.
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Preterism does not require the Christian to revamp any belief that would put his/her salvation in jeopardy.

    Preterism affirms:
    Jesus as one and only Messiah, through the shedding of his blood for the forgiveness of our sins,
    His death, burial and 3rd day resurrection.
    The 2nd and glorious coming again,
    The resurrection of the dead
    Savlation by faith alone,
    etc, etc, etc......
    Something JW's and mormons can not claim.

    PRETERISTS ARE CHRISTIANS! Just like pre tribbers, mid tribbers, post tribbers, pre mils, post mils, amils, etc, etc.

    Ones eschatology is not criteria for salvation PERIOD!


    Jesus came in the Name of OT Yaweh, and required the Jews to revamp almost all of their beliefs. Most of them didn't.

    It's always worth revamping your beliefs to allign them with truth.

    ybic,
    p70
     
  20. Craigybabe

    Craigybabe Junior vice trainee secretary

    31
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    If preterists are right, what I don't get is what is the point in having a "new earth" if we're just trashing it? :confused: I'm being sincere by the way this is really confusing.

    For the rest of eternity are we gonna keep on trying to convert non- believers? When does the "Lake of Sulphur" and the "great Judgement" gonna come into place? :confused:

    Please give me your thoughts :help:

    God Bless

    Craig
     
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