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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    What does the bible say about resurrection, is it the reanimation of a dead body or is it spiritual, symbolic, or what? Several posters claim that it is not a literal physical resurrection, and since they hold that the vast majority of prophecy (including resurrection) is already past then by necessity the resurrection cannot be physical. So if the bible teaches that the resurrection of dead believers is physical then the preterist's views are flawed.

    Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another;

    That seems pretty straight forward to me, Job in HIS FLESH expects to see God AFTER his body has been destroyed by worms.

    Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Now these verses in psalms are obviously a prophecy of Jesus' resurrection so I won't go into a detailed commentary on how it applied to David since the obvious rebuttal would be that it was a prophecy which applied 'only' to Jesus.

    Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

    Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    These verses are as subtle as a Mack Truck. If you need this passage explained then there is no hope that you will ever understand anything.

    Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    The word 'dust' is translated from "`aphar" and is very specific in meaning 'clay, earth, mud:--ashes, dust, earth, ground etc.' It is much more precise than 'sheol' which can be translated as 'grave, hell, pit, etc'. Daniel isn't speaking about the soul or spirit or some shadowy after life but explicitly about those in a literal grave, ie the physical body.

    1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    Paul ties the resurrection of Christ with the resurrection of believers. Absolutely no indication that the resurrection of believers is in any way different from the resurrection of Christ, same words used of both events.

    1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

    Again Paul ties the resurrection of the dead to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He goes so far as to say that to deny the resurrection of the dead is to deny that Christ was raised. This whole chapter of 1Co is a great study into the exact nature of the resurrection.

    2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

    Yet again the resurrection of the believers is the same as the resurrection of Jesus.

    Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

    Which resurrection of the dead? Christs? or that of believers? It doesn't matter because they are both so closely tied together they are equivalent and it isn't necessary to specify which resurrection.
     
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  2. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Hiya Willis:

    THE NATURE OF CHRIST'S SPIRITUAL BODY
    First, preterists take a fully orthodox view on the resurrection of Jesus Christ -- namely, that Christ's flesh did not see corruption according to the Messianic promise in Acts 2:27 and 2:31, and that his sinless body was raised and transfigured into his eternal, heavenly spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44). Christ's post-resurrection appearances were a series of manifestations into and out of the earthly realm and taking various forms (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:31; Acts 10:40-41). Christ even later appears to Paul as a LIGHT, but no man (Acts 9:3, 7-8). Christ would appear and vanish on the spot and at will. Therefore we understand that the NATURE of a heavenly spiritual body is NOT the same as our earthly bodies (1 Cor 15:44-50). Therefore we may boldly say with the apostle Paul that "though we have known Christ after the flesh, we know him in this way no longer" (2 Cor 5:16). We may boldly call Jesus the King Eternal Immortal INVISIBLE (1 Tim 1:17) and say that "he alone has immortality dwelling in light which no man has seen NOR CAN SEE (1 Tim 6:16). These are ALL proper understandings of Christ's immortal body, as is the understanding that he was showed in flesh and bone to Thomas and ate fish, etc. Christ's spiritual body is simply not limited to his incarnational earthly body any more, and even WE here and now are mystically part of that Body of Christ. His body is a mystery (Eph 5:30-32).


    THE TIMING OF RESURRECTION
    Does Paul tie Resurrection (which he taught was ABOUT TO happen in their lifetimes -- Acts 24:15; Romans 13:11, 1 Thess 4:15) to the end of the New Covenant Age as many futurists assume? Absolutely not. Does Paul tie the institution of Resurrection to the end of the Old Testament Age? The answer is ABSOLUTELY YES! Paul ties the institution of Resurrection to the removal of THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES. We can see in 1 Cor 15 how Paul ties the victory of resurrection to the end of the LAW AGE.

    THE STING OF DEATH IS SIN AND THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW OF MOSES
    Paul's famous and triumphant summary of his teaching on resurrection is indeed tied to the end of the LAW AGE and not the end of the New Covenant Age. Paul teaches that the sting and victory of death (which futurists teach have not yet been eradicated) exists due to SIN POWERED BY THE LAW OF MOSES! (1 Cor 15:56). Paul writes:

    This is worth repeating here. Paul ties the resurrection victory to the removal of THE LAW covenant of Moses:

    'The Death was swallowed up in victory [55] where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?'[56] And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

    Paul's teaching that the Law of Moses is the code that gives power to sin and therefore death can be found fully developed in Romans 7:5-14. Only by the removal of the Law and its earthly curses and Temple would the Temple in Heaven be opened up to receive the dead out of the hadean realm (Hebrews 9:8; 1 Cor 15:55-56). Resurrection occurs at the end of the Old Covenant Age.

    SUMMARY:
    Futurists should know there is no end of the New Covenant Age, yet they conjure one up based on the assumption that surely the New Covenant Age must precede the end of death via the institution of Resurrection. As Paul's own teaching in 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 shows, the end of death via the institution of RESURRECTION is actually tied to the removal of THE LAW OF MOSES which was the power of sin and death.

    Resurrection of the O.T. dead out of Hades to enter into Heaven came at AD 70. Just as the salvation of the Chosen for all time past, present, and future occured at a fixed point in history (the 1st century), so also did the victory of Resurrection once the Law of Moses that empowered sin and death was fully removed from the face of the planet.
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    The Mosaic law was fully removed and the new covenant in place after the crucifixion:

    "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom" (Matthew 27:51).

    "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    "There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).

    "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

    "There is no more offering for sin" (Hebrews 10:18).

    "If the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:7-13).


    I believe the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that this is why it says "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).

    Since neither the tribulation nor the 2nd coming have yet occurred, neither can the resurrection have yet occurred.
     
  4. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I don't think the preterist view allows for any of our bodies to be glorified, which would seem to ignore the scriptures.

    Romans 8: 18-21 - "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. (19) The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. (20) For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by it's own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope(21)that the creation itself will be liberated from it's bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."........I would recommend reading through verse 27.
     
  5. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Nice try GW, but the verses I quoted in my original post show a body rising from an earthly grave, not souls rising out of hades.

    Your quotes from Paul fail to recognize the difference between the physical death of the body and the symbolic death which Paul uses to describe the fallen, sinful nature of man. It is a mistake to substitute Paul's teaching on symbolic death for the clear statments about physical death.
     
  6. davo

    davo Member

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    Willis,

    Christ is NOT coming back to satisfy our "fleshly whims," always seeking the latest sign of this and that, nor to a fleshly Jerusalem with reinstituted fleshly sacrifices to rule over "fleshly" people etc etc etc! We know Jesus not according to the flesh.

    2 Corinthians 5:16 (NKJV) Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now (i.e., from now on) we know Him thus no longer. (emphasis mine)

    Willis you made reference to the original verses you mentioned, here's a few thoughts on JOB 19:25-26:

    How was it that Job was able to make his confession, which God had implanted in his heart, that "In my flesh shall I see God." And in that confession be comforted?

    How are we to understand that statement of Job? I Corinthians 15:50 makes clear that 'natural' flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh which Job here mentions is the same as the flesh and blood in I Corinthians 15:50. Further, Jesus makes it very clear that His kingdom is not a "fleshly" kingdom, it is "not of this world" John 18:36. Nor does it come with fleshly observation Luke 17:20. The Scriptures make clear that our present, corruptible bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We must have new, resurrection heavenly bodies, in order to enjoy the blessings of heaven. How is it then possible that Job can say here that he will see God "in his flesh" i.e., in his earthly corruptible natural body?

    The explanation can be derived from a more accurate translation of the Hebrew. A better translation here would be: "From, or out of my flesh, shall I see God." The idea is quite literally, "outside of, apart from or separated from" my flesh shall I see God. Job is stating here his confidence in a spiritual, heavenly resurrection body, apart from his current physical earthly body. He knows his current body is decaying. Huge sores are causing him tremendous pain and affliction. This body, he knows will die. It will go to the grave. Worms will eat it, hence; "even after my skin is destroyed." This is a very important statement as it gives the grammatical context for the rendering "out of" or "apart from." Job's confidence is not in this temporal body. His confidence lies outside of this body, so that when his flesh, his earthly frame has been stripped away, when it has been put off, when worms have eaten it up, then, through the veil of death in resurrection he will see God. Not in his present, corrupted earthly body, but he will see God in a new heavenly resurrection body.

    Our flesh informs us that death is imminent. Our flesh informs us that we will all die. cf Heb 9:27. We all experience struggles and difficulties in our flesh, yet with our eyes fixed firmly on Jesus we will with certainty see God. Jesus has removed the "terror" of death, Hebrews 2:15. cf John 8:51; 11:25. Such is the confidence here of Job, expressing the truth of 2Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

    Again, this present body is but a temporary house, a hut that will pass away in biological demise. When this exterior is removed from us in death, we will step in resurrection into our celestial habitation, our building which is prepared, much better, more excellent: an eternal home. cf. Jn 14:1-3

    Nine Translations

    Job 19:25-26 (NASV) As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God.

    Job 19:25-26 (RSV) For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God.

    Job 19:25-26 (YLT) That -- I have known my Redeemer, The Living and the Last, For the dust he doth rise. And after my skin hath compassed this [body], Then from my flesh I see God.

    Job 19:25-26 (DARBY) And [as for] me, I know that my Redeemer liveth, and the Last, he shall stand upon the earth; And [if] after my skin this shall be destroyed, yet from out of my flesh shall I see God.

    Job 19:25-26 (ASV) But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, and at last he will stand up upon the earth: And after my skin, [even] this [body], is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God.

    Job 19:25-26 (NIV) I know that my Redeemer [1Or defender] lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. [2Or upon my grave] And after my skin has been destroyed, yet [3Or And after I awake, though this body has been destroyed, then] in [4Or apart from] my flesh I will see God.

    Job 19:25-26 (NLT) But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and that he will stand upon the earth at last. And after my body has decayed, yet in my body I will see God [1 Or without my body I will see God.]

    Job 19:25-26 (CEV/GNT) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: My flesh may be destroyed; yet from this body I will see God.

    Job 19:25-26 (AMP) For I know that my Redeemer and Vindicator lives, and at last—the Last One—He will stand upon the earth; And after my skin, even this body, has been destroyed, then from my flesh or without it I shall see my God.

    *******

    Job 19:25-26 (Paraphrase) As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives (Christ—the Resurrection, Jn 11:25), and at the Last Day (Jn 11:24) He will stand triumphant over the earth (i.e., earth = the grave/Death, in Resurrection-Judgment, 1Cor 15:54-56). Even after my body is destroyed, yet still, apart from my flesh I shall see God. (Dan 12:13, 2Cor 5:1-2)

    2Cor 5:1-2 (AMP) For we know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    Here indeed, in this (present abode, body), we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over—to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out—with our heavenly dwelling.

    davo
     
  7. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    We absolutely agree davo, Christ is not coming back to satisfy our fleshly whims, he is coming back to fulfill the promises of God. One of those promises happens to be a physical resurrection. Let's not cloud the issue by bringing up sacrifice, thousand year reign etc. The title of the thread is 'The future resurrection' so let's not stray too far from the resurrection theme.

    Paul makes it clear in 1Cor that the resurrection body is different than the body that was laid in the ground, it isn't exactly the same but like a seed that sprouts into a mature plant so shall the corrupt mortal body sprout into the mature resurrection body. Put another way, the corruptible body is TRANSFORMED into an incorruptible body 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. So you see davo, the resurrection is not the seperation of the soul from the body but a transformation of the body. The corruptible body plays a vital role in the resurrection as witnessed to by Daniel, Isaiah, Paul, and the example of Christ's resurrection. The body rises from the tomb, dust, earth, we aren't talking about the soul rising from hades, sheol, the pit etc.

    I'm glad you posted the various translations because as I started to read your post I was already thinking of the six different translations I had consulted when I made my original post, as well as references to strong's concordance to ensure the words said what they seemed to say in the english language. When you read back through your translations notice that the majority favor the view that in his flesh Job shall see God, though a couple of those weaken the stand by brackets offering the exact opposite view, and the amplified makes no sense at all by trying to include both views. So from the scholarly viewpoint it seems the experts favor the original KJV version view, Job will be in his flesh. Not the original mortal flesh which cannot inherit the kingdom, but the incorruptible, immortal resurrection body. That it is a physical body is proven by the preceeding paragraphs wherein Job wishes for a permanent record of his ordeal so that when the resurrection occurs, no matter how long in the future, there will still be a written record of the events. So if Job were expecting some sort of spiritual resurrection what good would a permanent physical record be?

    Willis' amateur and unauthorized official paraphrase 'Job 19:25-26 As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives and at the Last Day He will stand triumphant over the earth. Even after my body is destroyed, it shall rise again and see God.'

    Hey, I'm not a scholar but since you offered your paraphrase I couldn't resist offering mine.
     
  8. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Good job here Willis, my friend. I believe you are correct in pointing to just some of the bad translations in the NKJV. It seems to be the favorite version of the Preterists, and now I'm even wondering if it was designed by the preterists to help boost their view, just a thought but very possible as well.
     
  9. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Twist, twist twist, lemonade time again!
     
  10. Hi Ron site back and get a big glass of lemonade you just might learn something.

    When many of us have approached the Bible we do so through the traditional teaching of men. The physical human body resurrection theory as taught today, largely is due to a misunderstanding of how God see as death .

    Every Christian of my acquaintance (and myself included) was fed the false ideas by men about a physical resurrection before being old enough to discern the true from false. Babes eat the food put in their mouths; in this case the return of Christ, the rapture, the resurrection, new heaven and earth, etc. were not the sincere mike of the word. Thus, every Christian must unlearn the bad un-biblical teaching of men before coming to the knowledge of the truth which is clearly seen in the Bible.

    We do not condemn those men of God who tried to teach with all sincerity they have been deceived by the traditions of men too. It is time, however, to get back to a Scriptural base and discard those things that the Bible does not teach.

    The idea that there will some day be a resurrection of physically dead human corpses is so ingrained in the modern religious psyche that it does not matter what the Bible really says.

    It is our contention that the Biblical concept of the resurrection involves a spiritual raising of man out of sin-death, [i.e. separation from God caused by sin]; a restoration of man to the presence of God.

    In Genesis 2:15-17 God told man concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "in the day you eat thereof you will surely die." Man and woman ate of the fruit; did they die that day? Amazingly, most people will say "No!" because Adam and Eve did not die physically after they ate the forbidden fruit. But this is not the whole story.

    Death means separation, not annihilation. And Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden the day they ate the fruit! Thus, ADAM AND EVE DIED SPIRITUALLY BECAUSE THEY WERE CAST OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF GOD! If Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate then Satan told the truth and God lied! God said you will die in the day you eat, Satan said you will not surely die, Genesis 3:1ff. Who told the truth to Adam and Eve? Unless one can find Adam and Eve physically dead in Genesis 2-3 then the death they died was spiritual and not physical!

    Now if we regain in Christ, in resurrection, what was lost in Adam, 1 Cor. 15:22, and if spiritual life, not physical, is what was lost, then physical resurrection is not what the Bible means by resurrection from the dead! Instead, the focus of Bible teaching about resurrection is the spiritual restoration of man from sin- death.

    The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. Paul called the Old Testament the "ministration of death" because all it did was condemn; it could not justify, Romans 8:1-3. He spoke of his struggles under the Old Covenant; he spoke of his past death under it, and lamented "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:9-24.

    Jesus' death and resurrection was the power for the final removal of that law that brought death, Eph. 2. But that Old Law could not fully pass until it was all fulfilled, Matthew 5:17-18; and until the New Covenant law of life in Christ was completely established, Gal. 3:21-29.

    This meant that there was a time of transition between the Old Law and the New; a time when those coming out from that Old Law were coming into life--thus they were being raised into resurrection life as firstfruits of the coming perfection in Christ. By being buried with Christ by baptism into death: and like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, the saints were also resurrected through Christ and walked in the newness of life. (Romans 6:4) They had passed from death unto the newness of life.

    In Romans 6:1-11 the apostle demonstrates how in baptism the Romans had died with Christ, vs. 3, and had been raised with him, vs. 4. This patently cannot refer to a physical death and resurrection. But notice verse 5: "If we have been planted with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." Is the likeness of his death a physical likeness? If so, they had died physically! But if it be admitted that this refers to a spiritual likeness how does this impact verse 5? Are we to see that in baptism there is a spiritual likeness to the death of Jesus but in resurrection there will be a physical imitation of his resurrection? Who changed the hermeneutic here? Modern interpreters, not Paul, change the nature of the discussion! :scratch:

    How is it possible to so radically change Paul's discussion from a spiritual death to a physical life? For Paul, the futuristic element was of the same nature in "likeness." In verse 8 the apostle says "if we died with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him." The coming life was of the same nature as the death; but the death was not physical, therefore the coming life was not physical.
     
  11. It is interesting to note that the Bible never uses the terms "resurrected body," "resurrection of the body," or "physical resurrection." Does that surprise you? :scratch: The church uses those term quite often, but the Bible never does. The phrases that the Bible does use are "the resurrection of the dead" and "the resurrection from the dead."

    So, in order to understand "resurrection" we must understand death. Resurrection is "resurrection from the dead." To understand death we need to go back to the book of beginnings, Genesis. In the book of Genesis we see God creating man:

    Genesis 2:7-8 (NKJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. 8 The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.

    After creating man, God placed him in the garden of Eden and gave him a command. Genesis 2:15-17 (NKJV) Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

    God warned Adam, regarding the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, "the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree:

    Genesis 3:6 (NKJV) So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

    Did Adam die that day? Not physically! Adam lived at least 800 years beyond the day he ate the fruit. But, God said he would die the day he ate and we know that God cannot lie. Adam did not die physically that day, but he did die spiritually. He died spiritually the moment he disobeyed. Spiritual death is separation from God.

    Isaiah 59:1-2 (NKJV) Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

    Ephesians 2:1-5 (NKJV) And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

    Because of his sin, man was separated from God. He was dead in trespasses and sins. The focus of God's plan of redemption is to restore through Jesus Christ what man had lost in Adam.

    Romans 5:18-19 (NKJV) Therefore, as through one man's (Adam) offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's (Jesus) righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

    1 Corinthians 15:21 (NKJV) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

    Because of Adam's sin, we are all born dead, separated from God. But through Jesus Christ came the resurrection from the dead. Jesus Christ came to destroy the works of the devil:

    1 John 3:8 (NKJV) He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

    What were the works of the devil? They were to separate man from God. Jesus Christ came to redeem man from death, to resurrect man back into the presence of God. The Bible is God's book, about His plan to restore the spiritual union of His creation. Resurrection is not about bringing physical bodies out of the graves, it is about restoring man into the presence of God.
     
  12. That is basically what the traditional church teaches abut the resurrection, but is it what the Bible teaches? Paul clearly taught that the resurrection was the hope of Israel.

    Acts 23:6 (NKJV) But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"

    Acts 24:15 (NKJV) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

    Acts 28:20 (NKJV) "For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain."

    Acts 26:6-8 (NKJV) "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 "To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope's sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 "Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?

    It is clear from this last verse that Paul sees the resurrection of the dead as that which fulfills "the hope of the promise made by God unto their fathers."

    The word "resurrection" does not appear in the Old Testament, but the concept does.

    Daniel 12:2 (NASB) "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Daniel 12:13 (NASB) "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

    Here we see a resurrection at the end of the Jewich age.
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Mani,
    Without getting nasty with bad attitudes, I will offer where I believe that you are missing the point here. Let's break down verse 8.

    "if we died-(past) with Christ, we believe we shall-(FUTURE) also live with him.

    Since the word shall means it is future, that is our hope, and need to live by faith, in our Lords promised coming to take us to be where He is.
     
  14. Hi brother Thunder. May I point out were you are missing the point here. (1) When Paul said "we" he was talking about "himself and all the first century believers" (we) died-past with Christ he was talking about himself and the body, of first century believers "we shall live with Him"

    Not us who have eternal life. We today who already have eternal life have no need to to look forward to living with Christ. We already have his very presence within us.

    (2) The Lord never promised "us" his coming would take "us" to be where He is. The Lord promised he would return to take "those who were there at that time in space" with him.

    Let not your heart be troubled you believe in God believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and preare a place for you I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you konw. "Thomas" said unto him, Lord "we" know not where you go; and how can "we"know the way? Jesus said unto him, I an the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

    Here we clearly see Jesus never promised"us" he would return to take "us any were". The promise was to Thomas and those believers in the first century.

    (3)The letters of the New Testament were not written to us. Before you scream, consider what the letters say, such as to Timothy, to Titus, to the Romans, to the church at Galatia, to the seven churches of Aais etc.. And how John say he was "their brother" and "companion" in "tribulation." Rev. 1:9

    These were letters written to the first century people and to first century churches about first century situations and events. (Matthew 24:1-3; Luke 21:21-22) God has preserved these letter for us today for our learning, 1 Kings 10:8 instruction, 2 Timothy 3:16 and comfort, John 14:27 but they were not written to us. They were written to first century people. (Acts 2:36-40)

    We are, in effect, reading someone else's mail. When we read these letters, we must understand them as they were written. When the writer told the reader that those events would happen "soon," Romans 13:11-12; James 5:8-9 he was talking about events that were about to happen at that time in the first century. We have absolutely no problem understanding this principle when reading the "Old Testament," then why is it such a big problem understanding it in the New Testament? We need to read the New Testament letters from a first century perspective.
     
  15. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Mani,

    3 posts? I guess you're going with the old saw 'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with B.S.' I'll start cleaning up your misrepresentations in your first post. The first five paragraphs of your post are trying to make the point that the physical resurrection is a man made tradition and isn't taught in the bible. I posted numerous OT scriptures that teach a physical resurrection. Those verses come straight from the bible and to insist they aren't there is silly and deceitful.

    I am familiar with the concept of 'spiritual death'. You contend that Adam died spiritually the day he ate the fruit. What is the basis for this concept? Is it simply that God cannot lie and therefore Adam MUST have died in some way during that 24 hour period? Because if that is all you have then you don't have anything.

    By the way, die/death according to Strong's concordance comes from the hebrew muwth mooth, a primitive root: to die (literally or figuratively); causatively, to kill:--X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro(-mancer), X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in (no) wise.

    I don't see the term 'seperation' in that definition but I do see 'destroy'. Are we now allowed to make up our own definitions for words?

    In answer to post 2... It is interesting to note that the scriptures never use the term 'bible'. Does that surprise you? But the church often does use that term. If you are trying to prove that absence of a term in the word of God proves the entire concept it describes invalid then you are on very shaky ground indeed.

    I agree with all the rest of your points in post 2 right down to the last sentence. I more or less agree with most of what you posted. This is the exact concept I was refering to in my post to GW about the symbolic death which Paul often wrote about. However, I can't understand how you missed the point that Adam did die a physical death as a result of sin. You see, spiritual death is only half of the equation, man still dies a physical death as a result of sin. Did Jesus come to earth to only slap a band-aid on the problem and clean up half the mess that Adam made?




    Yes, mani, it is what the bible teaches, I've quoted chapter and verse for you in my first post to make it easy to understand and follow. The rest of your post I agree with, except on two points:


    The hope of the promise made by God was to send Messiah. While resurrection is part of Messiah's PURPOSE the focus is always on Messiah and I don't think we should lessen the promise by focusing on only one aspect of his purpose. As to the second point, I prefer the translation 'end of days'. Even the translation you used didn't specify 'Jewish' age.

    In conclusion, the wages of sin is death. Christ paid that debt, but was his death 'spiritual', physical, or was it both? Christ's resurrection was a type of the coming resurrection of believers, was his resurrection 'spiritual', physical, or was it both?
     
  16. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Well, I barely get my post up and find that mani has added even more. I'll not go into a lot of detail here but I would like to comment on this concept quoted from mani, "These were letters written to the first century people and to first century churches about first century situations and events."

    Actually mani, I believe the letters were authored by God through the apostles. Unless you want to deny the inspiration of the Word of God then it is bizarre to think that God is only interested in communicating with the first century church.
     
  17. I just love you Willis. On that point we agree. The letters were authored by God through the apostles. I never said they were not. Please don't start getting like others here who adding shomething that was not said.

    That fact still remains these letters were authored by God through the inspired Apostle's who wrote to the first century church. To the churches of Galatia (Gal.1:2). So really what you believe Willis does not change the truth here at all. "These were letters written to the first century people and to first century churches about first century situations and events."

    They were the ones who were changing from the covenant of death, to the new covenant of life in Christ. And they were the ones who were being trubled with tribulationd from the unbelieving Jews because of Christ(1 Thessalonians 1:1-10) So yes these lettes were written to help the first century church in times of triblation (Revelation 1:9). John states that he was "there brother and compaion in tribulation.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Php 2:19
    But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.


    I suppose if the proper interpratation of "you" in the NT includes me today, and the proper interpratation of "shortly" includes the year 2002 or later, I'd better be expecting Timothy to ring my doorbell any time now!

    :clap:
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Paul clearly taught the resurrection was ABOUT TO happen in their lifetimes -- Acts 24:15; Romans 13:11, 1 Thess 4:15. Indeed the fact that Christ was called the "FIRSTFRUITS" indicates the whole harvest is present, and not thousands of years off.

    Paul ties the victory of resurrection to the end of the LAW AGE, when the early followers of Jesus would cease to observe the Law of Moses (which they did observe up to AD 70). It was when the Mosaic System was destroyed that the victory of resurrection would happen: Paul writes:

    1 Corinthians 15:54-56
    and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW


    See that folks? See what was preventing the Resurrection from occuring at AD 30 at the Cross? It was the fact that the Law of Moses continued right on past the crucifixion until AD 70. THE STING OF DEATH IS SIN AND THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW OF MOSES . Paul's famous and triumphant summary of his teaching on resurrection is indeed tied to the end of the LAW AGE and not the end of the New Covenant Age. Paul showed that the sting and victory of death (which futurists teach have not yet been eradicated) existed due to SIN POWERED BY THE LAW OF MOSES! (1 Cor 15:56). The Law Covenant was ABOUT to vanish away at the time Hebrews 8:13 was written (AD 60s) -- the Law Covenant did indeed vanish away at AD 70 when Christ's prophecies about the Temple were fulfilled.
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    That's incorrect, postrib. The Old Covenant practices including blood sacrifices, vows, and feasts continued right on in Israel until AD 70.

    AND, the early Jerusalem Church continued to observe Moses in all ways all through the book of Acts since only the gentiles were permitted to by-pass the Laws of Moses. Paul and James men kept vows and even gave blood sacrifices in Acts 21:18-26 as was their custom to be zealous for the Law (Acts 21:20).

    You rightly quote Hebrews 10:9 that says He removes the first covenant that he may establish the second. However, you missed the fact that the first Covenant was growing old and was ABOUT to vanish at the time Hebrews was written according to Heb 8:13. That verse was written about 6-8 years before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple worship -- the heart of the Mosaic Law System.

    You also do a fine job of locating 2 Cor 3:6-12, but somehow missed that Paul is speaking that passage in the HOPE that it will happen soon. That passage shows BOTH systems in existance, only soon the ministration of death (the Mosaic Law system) would be done away and only the New Covenant would remain. 2 Cor 3:12 says "since we have this hope..."

    The raising of the dead out of the hadean realm happened when the Law System was fully ceased at AD 70 according to Paul's statement in 1 Cor 15:55-56:

    1 Corinthians 15:54-56
    and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW
     
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