Futurists vs Preterists

[davo]

Good points there P70

A question to my futurist friends:

Can you give me a "biblically referenced" answer to the presence of sin and evil men in the New Heaven and New Earth -note this is the New Heaven and Earth, NOT the Millenium. This re-created world YOU are saying is sinless and perfect with nothing bad. So please explain the following:

Rev 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Healing presupposes SICKNESS which presupposes SIN -and ALL this in the final abode of eternal bliss. -and if it doesn't, please explain HOW.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

We may debate what or who the "City" is -but what do YOU do with these "bad" people, from whence do they come, how do they come to be in this physical New Creation of yours which as YOU say comes at the final end -AFTER EVERYTHING???

A biblical response would be appreciated, nothing highfalutin just biblical would be fine.

Originally posted by TheBear
Similarly, Dean Henry Alford (Protestant), in the "Prolegomena" to his Greek Testament, declares:

“The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern times…appears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580." (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, p. 351 [bottom numbering].)
“The Praeterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of , in the times of primitive Christianity. … The View is said to have been first promulgated in anything like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar … in 1614.” (Ibid, pp. 348, 349 [bottom numbering].)

John [/B]

John, an interesting quote. I think the phrase "in modern times" is very important. Clearly there was futuristic thinking in ages past. The same applies with Preteristic thinking etc. It is wrong to try and claim certain persons as being futurists or preterists or any other such thing for that matter. That however does not mean some things/persons were not "preteristic" in their thinking -this goes for "futuristic thinking as well.

The point the "fulfilled camp" is trying to make is this: When Jesus and His Apostles spoke/wrote "futuristically" it was from their 1st century perspective, and in context was applyed to IT, not our 21st century world. Because God's Word IS eternal and true it applies across the aeons of time as in we apply the principles of Scripture to our lives -but using the Scriptures as a "road map" in determining our worlds current events etc we see as a misuse and a travesty of truth, as we see the prophetic/eschatological element as relating in the 1st century context -referring to the ending of the Old Covenant world of Judaism, and therefore the blessings we have today because of that. The prophetic/eschatological element does NOT apply to our 21st century western world -apart from in the "ongoing prophetic sense" which P70 adequately expounded above, and other like Scriptures.

I welcome biblical answers to my above questions.

davo

 

[Josiah]

In reference to my last post, I'm still honestly seeking to understand the way you believe, not trying to lay a trap for anyone. It's very easy, given the nature of some posts in this forum regarding preterism, to read sarcasm into posts. I continue to hold that my questions are legitimate.

 

[TheBear]

What is the meaning of the following scripture?



1 Cor 15:51-57

"51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."


Thanks,
John

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Josiah


Hello Parousia!
What are some examples of prophecies that preterists believe are yet to be fulfilled?

-----

- By the way, Spongebob is very cool.

"If I had a dollar for every brain you didn't have, I 'd have one dollar" - Squidward quote

(That was not directed at you!)

Hi Josiah, Scroll up and you will see a list of prophesies I posted to answer that exact question

Thanks for the thumbs up for my avatar! and no I didn't take your quote personally!
YBIC,
P70

 

[Josiah]

Originally posted by TheBear
What is the meaning of the following scripture?



1 Cor 15:51-57

"51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."


Thanks,
John

I believe that verse refers to the rapture when the dead in CHRIST will be raised and meet the LORD in the air after which we who are still alive will also meet the LORD in the air, and so, we will forever be with the LORD!!!

 

[TheBear]

I guess it could be argued that Futurism and Preterism, by default of interpretation, could have dated to the first century. I'll give you that, Davo. But, these specific teachings, to my knowledge, have not been documented, ex scriptura, until the reformation/counter-reformation era.


I have one question that has never been addressed by Preterist to my satisfaction. What is the meaning of the following scripture?

1 Cor 15:51-57

"51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."


Thanks,
John

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Josiah


You misunderstood, Parousia. I was saying that I grew up in the Church of Christ and those are the beliefs they hold to. I have since come to believe differently.

As far as the Earth's destruction, this verse is used as their basis:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Do preterists believe that the Earth will remain the same (or become progressively better) forever (or on an ongoing basis?) - Is there a point, according to your views, where the Earth's progressive improvement reaches a climax? According to the preterist's beliefs, is the Earth moving towards a certain point and will eventually achieve perfection and that Heaven as well as Earth will exist forver in 2 different places? If so, will people continue to die on Earth and go to heaven forever?

YBIC2

Hi Josiah,

I just wanted to thank you for being very honest.

Anyway, all these verses speak of the earth lasting forever, or the kingdom of God reigning forever:

Gen 8:20-21, Ps. 78:69; 89:36-37; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 145:13; 148:4,6; Eccl. 1:4; Isa. 9:7; Dan. 2:44; 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21

We believe that heaven is heaven and earth is earth. They are totally different from one another and that heaven will not merge with earth or anything of that nature.

As for the 2 Peter 3:10 passage, the passage uses prophetic language similar to that of the Old Testament. I think the following may be useful:

--Sun, Moon, Stars-- (Matthew 24:29)

Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken (Matthew 24:29)

Compare to Jehovah's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), or Jehovah's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). Or Jehovah's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), or His coming to Egypt in 572BC (Eze 32:7-11) . The sun, moon, and stars are not literal, but speak of the downfall of rulers and authorities. Isaiah 13:10-17 uses this exact language to speak of the conflict of the Medes and the Babylonians. Rev 12:1-4 and in Rev 8:10-9:2 use the casting down of stars to speak of rulers. Isaiah 14:12 calls Nebuchadnezzar the Morning Star cast down to earth. In Rev 1:20, the stars are rulers/messengers of the Churches. The "shaking of the heavens and earth" was used by Haggai in 2:7 and 2:21-23 to speak of political overturnings when the great Persian empire was all aflame with rebellion and conflict and the Jews were expecting this to work in their favor as they were being restored to Palestine and rebuilding the Temple.

Such "de-creation of heaven and earth" language is used in Psalm 18:5-16 to describe the downfall of Saul's Kingdom. In Isaiah 13:6-19 we see the destruction of heavens and earth pertain to when the Medes broke up the Babylonian empire. Nahum applies this earth-shattering metaphor to Yahweh's judgment of Ninevah (Nahum 1:1-5). Isaiah applies this language to Edom of 703BC (Isa 34:3-8). Ezekiel applies this language to Babylon's victory over Egypt (572BC) in Ezekiel 32:7-11.
-----------

Also, you might want to get a concordance and look up the word for 'elements' (as in 2 Peter 3:10) and see how it's used all throughout the NT (I think the word appears like 8 times). I think you'll be surprised to see what it means =)

By the way, preterists believe the 'end times' refers to the end of biblical judaism. In other words, we look at Revelation as a change in covenants (from the old covenant to the new covenant), not a cosmological change. Preterism is often referred to as covenantal eschatology. You might want to read Heb 8:7-13 and see the connection with Gal 4:21-31 =)

With that in mind, I believe Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22, Rev 21:2 all speak of the same thing =)

God bless!

-Jason

 

[GW]

Originally posted by TheBear
I guess it could be argued that Futurism and Preterism, by default of interpretation, could have dated to the first century. I'll give you that, Davo. But, these specific teachings, to my knowledge, have not been documented, ex scriptura, until the reformation/counter-reformation era.

Hi John. Preterism is rooted solidly in scriptures and in early Church commentaries on Matt 24 that show it was considered as mostly (if not entirely) fulfilled. We also can show that the "Two-Advent" theory was developed by Justin and Irenaeus but was not in the Old Testament and was NOT in the writers of the N.T. who held the eschaton intact as ONE continuous messianic generation to be completed within their lifetimes. Also, we can list statements by Chrysostom and Athanasius that seem to indicate that they believed the "second advent" occurred (Chrysostom) and that the eschatological defeat of death was completed (Athanasius and many ECFs). We could also point out that many of the diverse movements in the early centuries that did not make it through the door of the creeds in the 3-400s were operating on a fulfilled understanding of the messianic Advent. I should think that Justin's and Irenaeus' opinions shouldn't factor in too heavily since their eschatology of Chiliasm (premillennialism) was denounced as heresy at the Council of Ephesus at 431AD.

Originally posted by TheBear
I have one question that has never been addressed by Preterist to my satisfaction. What is the meaning of the following scripture?

1 Cor 15:51-57

THE TIMING OF RESURRECTION
Paul does not tie Resurrection of the Dead (which he taught was ABOUT TO happen in their lifetimes -- Acts 24:15; Romans 13:11, 1 Thess 4:15) to the end of the New Covenant Age as many futurists just assume. Rather, the institution of Resurrection of the Dead is tied to the end of the Old Testament Age in Pauline theology. That is, Paul ties the institution of Resurrection to the removal of THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES. I'll take us forward to see in 1 Cor 15 how Paul ties the victory of resurrection to the end of the LAW AGE.

"THE STING OF DEATH IS SIN AND THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW [OF MOSES]"
Paul's famous and triumphant summary of his teaching on resurrection of the dead is indeed tied to the end of the LAW AGE and not the end of the New Covenant Age. Paul believed that the sting and victory of death (which futurists teach have not yet been eradicated) existed due to SIN POWERED BY THE LAW OF MOSES! (1 Cor 15:56). Paul writes:

1 Corinthians 15:54-56
and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory [55] where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?'[56] And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

This is worth repeating here. Paul ties the resurrection victory to the removal of THE LAW covenant of Moses:

'The Death was swallowed up in victory [55] where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?'[56] And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

Paul's teaching that the Law of Moses is the code that gives power to sin and therefore death can be found fully developed in Romans 7:5-14. Only by the removal of the Law and its earthly curses and Temple would the Temple in Heaven be opened up to receive the dead out of the hadean realm (Hebrews 9:8; 1 Cor 15:55-56). So the dead were raised out of HADES at the end of the Old Covenant Age which was at AD 70 when the earthly Temple System was abolished forever.

In Sum:
Futurists assume that resurrection of the dead is tied to some "end of the New Covenant age," but they should know better -- there is no end of the New Covenant Age (Eph 3:21; Heb 13:20; Heb 7:14-17, 7:24-28; Eph 3:8-11; Rev 1:6). As Paul's own teaching in 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 shows, the end of death via the institution of resurrection of the dead (granting of eternal life to the saints - Lk 18:30; Titus; 1 Tim 6:19) is actually tied to the removal of THE LAW OF MOSES which was the power of sin and death and was in effect over the Nation until the Temple/Law economy was destroyed at AD 70.

 

[Phoenix]

How do the full preterists see this being fulfilled ?


(Rev 20:4-6 NIV) I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. {5} (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. {6} Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Thanks

 

[Josiah]

But what about the future of Earth? What, according to your views, is the Earth destined to become if it keeps getting better and better? Do you believe people will go on living and dying and going to heaven or hell forever? What are your views of hell?

Please take the following in a loving way:
I do want to say that I don't hold to the preterist view. I don't believe your viewpoints really make sense (that's not a bitter or hateful remark). On one hand I see the points of those who accuse you of being heretics - Those who taught false doctrines were strongly rebuked by Jesus and the apostles. On the other hand, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "you are of your father, the devil" (ie - call you a heretic) because I THINK we can believe differently on these points and still be brothers and sisters in CHRIST, can't we? At the same time, I've come to realize that I really don't know very much at all and would NEVER make a good judge. The only thing I guess I REALLY know (and will not entertain any argument about:

1) I'm a sinner (I've never been more clear about anything.)
2) Jesus is the son of GOD and came to Earth and lived his entire life without a single sin
3) Jesus was crucified in my place to save me from eternal hell.
4) Without Jesus and His sacrifice for me, I would be lost.

There is no other gospel, no other good news.

All glory and honor belong to our God and His son, Jesus Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Psalm 119:176
I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands.

Psalm 6:2
Be merciful to me, Lord , for I am faint; O Lord , heal me, for my bones are in agony.

 

[Catchup]

I saw reference made, on one of the post, about Christian persecution. It was downplayed by the preterist. That is more of their deception. For it is an out right lie! Do not fall into their trap. We are blessed to live in America where we have freedom of worship. The preterist claim this is the new world. I wonder how they would feel if they lived in a country that was not free.

Maybe some good can come from this debate. These Christians need our help.Please check out this web site.


Bible League

Following is a short message from the site...

Suffering Christians ask for two things - prayers and Bibles.
Christians around the world today are suffering for their faith. World Evangelical Fellowship reports that more people have died in circumstances related to their faith in this century than in all the 20th Century wars combined.
But persecuted Christians are not saying, "Stop the persecution." Instead they plead, "Pray for us. And send us Bibles so we can be strong."
The Bible League is responding to their plea.

Please everyone stop for a moment and offer a prayer for our Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

LOVE

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by TheBear
This basically means that they will spiritualize any piece of Scripture that does not fit within their belief system of preterism. John

The very same can be said for the futurist camp also John. :o

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Josiah
But what about the future of Earth? What, according to your views, is the Earth destined to become if it keeps getting better and better? Do you believe people will go on living and dying and going to heaven or hell forever? What are your views of hell?

Please take the following in a loving way:
I do want to say that I don't hold to the preterist view. I don't believe your viewpoints really make sense (that's not a bitter or hateful remark). On one hand I see the points of those who accuse you of being heretics - Those who taught false doctrines were strongly rebuked by Jesus and the apostles. On the other hand, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "you are of your father, the devil". I THINK we can believe differently on these points and still be brothers and sisters in CHRIST. At the same time, I've come to realize that I really don't know very much at all and would NEVER make a good judge. The only thing I guess I REALLY know (and will not entertain any argument about) - 1) I'm a sinner (I've never been more clear about anything.) 3) Jesus is the son of GOD and came to Earth and lived his entire life without a single sin 2) Jesus was crucified in my place to save me from eternal hell. 3) Without Jesus and His sacrifice for me, I would be lost.

Amen!! That's what matters most =)

I honestly have no idea what will happen to the earth in the future. I don't see why it would be suddenly destroyed. I do believe that people will go on living and dying and going to heaven or hell. My view on hell is the traditional one..I don't know what it's called, but it's a real place of eternal damnation.

By the way Rev 22:17 speaks of evildoers even in the age to come. Rev 22:2 clearly implies that pain would exist, why else would a "healing of nations be necessary"?

Also would you believe me if i said that the gospel was preached to all the world? (Matthew 24:14)

Check out these passage: Col 1:6, Col 1:23, Rom 1:8, Rom 10:18, Rom 16:25-26

-Jason

 

[TheBear]

Sorry it took so long to get back. Had to handle a situation in another forum.

Okay then. In all of your interprative explanations, you completely bypassed verses 51 to 53 of 1 Cor. 15.

"51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Please elaborate on those verses, please. For example, what does he mean when he says we shall not all sleep? Are some going to be drinking a lot of coffee? Will some have insomnia? What does he mean when he says we all will be changed? Changed to what? From what? What does he mean when he says mortals take on imortality? Vampires?


Thanks,
John

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Josiah
It's very easy, given the nature of some posts in this forum regarding preterism, to read sarcasm into posts. I continue to hold that my questions are legitimate.

Hi Josiah.

Your questions are refreshing because they are not full of sarcasm.

Thanks,
GW

 

[davo]

Originally posted by TheBear
I have one question that has never been addressed by Preterist to my satisfaction. What is the meaning of the following scripture?

1 Cor 15:51-57

"51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."


Thanks,
John

G'day John

You said: "I have one question that has never been addressed by Preterist to my satisfaction."

To get an idea of how best to answer -can you tell me what it is "you think" Preterists believe on this (so I'm not hitting stuff that means nothing to you).

John (and anyone else), what answers do you have to the questions I asked in that post you're asking from.

davo

 

[TheBear]

Davo,

See my edited post.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Catchup
I saw reference made, on one of the post, about Christian persecution. It was downplayed by the preterist. That is more of their deception. For it is an out right lie! Do not fall into their trap. We are blessed to live in America where we have freedom of worship. The preterist claim this is the new world. I wonder how they would feel if they lived in a country that was not free.

Sister, we are blessed to live in the Western Hemisphere where there is zero religious persecution, but we are not "lucky." It was Christians that established that the Western Hemisphere and Europe would be predominantly open to Christianity and we the Church are going to continue to expand our territory to Asia. America will only lose ground as a country with Christian ideals if good evangelicals just do nothing while pleading for a rapture escape. We have kids, grandkids and their grandkids coming down the pipeline and now's the time to ensure a better, safer, and more Christianized future for them. Do you have faith that Christ and His Church can and will continue to extend its influence and establish righteousness to all the regions of the earth? We are predestined for it and nothing can stop us (Matt 16:18-19; Matt 28:18-19).

 

[Hoonbaba]

Amen! =)

-Jason

 

[Catchup]

I know right now the preterist are looking to discredit what I have told you. Find the truth for yourself. Do not wait and allow then to twist reality into the fantasies of their own minds. They sit in comfort and disclaim the anguish of others who are strong in Christ.

Here is another web site...

A Cry in the Lion's Den

"We are beaten, imprisoned, raped, and killed.
Women and children are sold to slavery.
Our crime?
We are Christians."

More Christians have DIED for their faith this century than in the previous 19 centuries combined. More than an estimated 160,000 Christians were martyred in 1996 because of their belief in Jesus. Countless others were raped, beaten, tortured and were subjected to unimaginable horrors. Source: David C. Barrett, "Annual Statistical Table on Global Mission: 1997 "International Bulletin of Missionary Reach." January 1997, p. 25.

I tried to walk away from this debate. I thought these preterist were just misguided Christians. But trying to push their beliefs by minimizing the sacrifice and torture of others Christians is so very wrong! Beware of their false teaching. It appeals to your human desires...but it is not of God.

LOVE