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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    I like mine black and yes it does give me insomnia, unfortunately i have a fresh cup in front of me, it's a never ending cycle. :D

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
     
  2. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    I think your very wrong in that statement Catchup, that's beside the point. Lets expand that prayer to all men and women, boy and girls, who undergo persecution regardless of their Religious beliefs. For people of all faiths, colors and creeds. I, as i hope everyone, would extend my hand and my heart to any brother or sister suffering at the hands of their persecutors.

    Blessings to you
     
  3. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Catchup,

    I don't understand; you seem to be creating your own hysteria about preterism that just doesn't exist here. When has any preterist on this board tried to disclaim or minimalize the anguish of others? Never have they done so. You are attributing something to them that simply is not true.

    "Sit in comfort"? Did you not read what GW wrote on his #77 post, the one directly above yours: "Do you have faith that Christ and His Church can and will continue to extend its influence and establish righteousness to all the regions of the earth? We are predestined for it and nothing can stop us (Matt 16:18-19; Matt 28:18-19)."

    Does that sound like "sitting in comfort" to you?

    Preterists "push" their beliefs on this board just as much as Futurists like yourself try to "push" yours. Of course we are going to emphasize our beliefs and reason together. That's what this board is for. Preterists appeal to the scriptures, first and foremost, just as you do, not to emotions or wishful thinking.

    Please, why can't we simply come and share our views together on this board without creating a "good vs. evil", "us verses them" environment. If you don't agree with the Preterist viewpoint, fine. I don't agree with yours either, but I don't make any more of it then that. Why can't you do the same?

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  4. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    Post 59 .... BY GW!!


    GW"s reply...
     
  5. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Can I assume that you understood Paul's link between the victory over death and the removal of the Law of Moses (1 Cor 15:55-56)? Did you follow that Paul believed resurrection of the dead would occur in his generation and that "The Dead" Paul was talking about were in Hades at that time (the place of the O.T. dead) and not Heaven or hell? If so, it's easier to proceed. I'll assume you will say "yes" if only for the sake of moving to an explanation of HOW.


    Eternal life was granted to ALL the saints at AD 70 (both the living and the dead). Jesus said that eternal life was going to arrive at "the age to come" (Luke 18:30). That was spoken by Jesus during the Old Testament period and looked ahead to the New Covenant Age. And so we see the saints of the last days period of the Old Testament Economy still awaiting eternal life to come (Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; Jude 1:21; 1 Jn 2:25; Mark 10:30). The destruction of the Temple would mark the "end of the Old Covenant Age" (Matt 24:3), which is when eternal life would be granted in fullness to the Church (Luke 18:30).

    Paul's teaching on the granting of eternal life to the Church at the very close of the Old Covenant Era shows that it would impact two camps of saints: (1)The Dead and (2) the Living. The entire Church was to be changed by this bestowal of eternal life from Jesus, but only THE DEAD were to be "raised" (1 Cor 15:52; 1 Thess 4:16). That is, of course, why the teaching is called the "Resurrection of the dead."

    (1) "Sleep" means "to die physically."
    (2) Only the dead only are "raised incorruptible" out of Hades at the last trumpet (1 Thess 4:15; 1 Cor 15:52; 1 Cor 15:55-56).
    (3) And ALL the Church was "changed."

    Paul had just explained from 15:35-50 that "resurrection of the dead" is for the dead, and he specifically was thinking of the O.T. saints and contemporary loved ones who had died but were still one people with the Church living on earth (see Heb 11:39-49). Paul explained in detail how the living must die to participate in the "resurrection of the dead" (15:35-50). Obvious point.

    Therefore, if the dead were to be raised at the same time that the entire Church received eternal life, then it stood to reason that all the living would instantly die. Paul had just taught them that the individual saint is NOT "made alive" unless he/she dies (1 Cor 15:36), and the process was thoroughly explained in 1 Cor 15:35-50 and paralleled by 2 Cor 5:1-2. So Paul tells them a "MYSTERY." The mystery of eternal life is that the living at that time of the resurrection (who Paul believed he would be among -- 1 Thess 4:15; 1 Cor 15:52), would NOT DIE nor be "raised." Rather, the living would be changed by the granting of eternal life to the Church. This "change" for the living included their adoption as sons, redemption, entrance into the Kingdom, salvation, and many other promises of Jesus that were being held with "an earnest/pledge" and were yet-future hopes to them (Eph 1:13-14; Heb 9:28; Rom 13:11; 1 Peter 1:5; Rom 8:21-25; Titus 1:2; 1 Jn 2:25). This "change" for THE DEAD included their getting to exit Hades to go to their eternal inheritance in Heaven (Heb 10:34-39; 1 Cor 15:55-56; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Rev 20:12-15; Daniel 12:13).

    So the living did not become vampires when eternal life was granted to the Church (the change); but they did become the fully adopted and manifested sons of God (Romans 8:14-19) and recipients of the redemption/salvation. All the New Covenant blessings were fully granted and the Law curse was gone from God's people. The Church of the living has labored under a New Covenant ever since -- the "change" is as different as the two Covenant dispensations themselves.

    The O.T. dead saints did not become vampires at the time eternal life was granted to the Church either; but they did in a blink of an eye exit the hadean realm and enter Heaven to be in their immortal, eternal inheritance with the Blessed Trinity (Heb 10:34-39; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Daniel 12:13).
     
  6. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi Catchup,

    I read Messenger's and GW's posts; GW's #56 dealt with Messengers futurist logic, and GW adds "When one takes a long-range survey of history we see how much better the world has become because of the salting role of God's people on the earth.". In #57, Messenger responds by saying " GW you have lost all contact with reality, more christians have died in the 20th century than any other time in history."

    But Messenger's comment had nothing to do with GW's point: he said the world is better througout the "long range of history" because of " the salting role of God's people on the earth." Yes, there has been a great deal of persecution throughout this Century, but the Church has grown and it's salt has been spreading as well - and that was GW's point. He wasn't trivializing persecution: he was merely expressing the victory the Church has been having due to it's ever increasing role as the "salt of the earth".

    In Messenger's #57 post he expresses that Christians have been persecuted in china, the middle east. GW responded by explaining that there are explosions of evangelism in some of those areas and a great deal of religious freedom in others - again, because of the "salt" issue, that the Church is destined to spread out further and further and gain more influence. GW is appreciating the work that God is doing through His Saints in those dark areas - this isn't "trivializing", but giving glory to God because of His continued work!

    Where does GW "minimalize" the costly lives of our dear brothers and sisters? All he was doing was explaining that, eschatology wise, preterism teaches that the Kingdom will expand and the "salt" will continue to season the whole earth, while futurism's logic demands that things only get worse before they get better. That's all. That's not trivializing anybody - it actually means that our brethren can have hope that their sacrifices are not in vain, and that their lands will one day hear and receive the gospel of Christ, and instead of receiving it with hostility, they will embrace it with joy. That's the principle of preterism, my friend.

    Yes, outside of Christ the world is still a dire place in many parts. But over the past 2000 years the world has irrivocably changed for the better due to Christ. His life has changed the course of human history. The principles He taught helped to create the freedom, ethical standards, and democracies that millions throughout the world enjoy. His Church has grown in size and influence despite persecution and hardship.

    All GW was doing was accentuating the victories of the Church in this case, rather than pointing out it's tragedies. There is nothing "minimal" about that.


    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  7. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    I'm sorry, GW. Your lenghtly explaination is very creative, and extermely dubious. How long did it take the preterists to design that one? It all sounds too hoakey to me.....Taking something simple, then making it multi-layered and extremely complex, is the classic trademark of many a cult.

    I won't bother you with any more questions.

    Take care,
    John
     
  8. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
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    John,

    You asked how the living were changed. I told you that the Church came out from under the Law Age and has received the promises that were promised in the last days period of the Old Testament period.

    You did not ask how the dead were raised incorruptible, but I went ahead and explained it.

    I do hope you'll ask questions. Resurrection/the afterlife has been one of the murkiest concepts in the church for 2000 years. Luther and many of the reformers taught what The Messenger teaches: that the dead are not now in Heaven nor sentient.

    Catholics have taught that saints live bodiless in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory, which is a mixing of the final states out of time, out of sequence, and out of nature (body). Also, no one can be in the final states of Heaven or Hell without Christ's judgment -- the O.T. dead lived in Hades/Sheol.

    It really is much more complex than maybe you realize, and requires one to know the history of the dead and the afterlife from Adam to Christ, and from Christ forever.
     
  9. Hi Bear and welcome. I will tack this one.

    The problem that most people encounter in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is the type of change meant for the living. How would they be changed in what Paul said would be in a moment of time? Paul's teaching in this book is full of spiritual significance that fulfills the promises of God in the Old Testament. More on that later.

    The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. Paul called the Old Testament the "ministration of death" because all it did was condemn; it could not justify, Romans 8:1-3. He spoke of his struggles under the Old Covenant; he spoke of his past death under it, and lamented "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:9-24.

    Notice what Paul described as death In chapter 7. "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" vs. 9-11.

    What death is Paul describing here? Is it biological death of his physical body? Patently not. Yet he said he had died. What law was Paul describing so graphically in terms of sin and death? What law gave sin such a hold on Paul? It was the law that said "thou shalt not covet" vs. 7--the Old Covenant of Israel. This is the law that Paul labored under and that created the "body of this death" Rom. 7:24 and from which Paul longed for full deliverance, cf. Phil. 3:1-15.

    The first, observation that should be made is that it is the living and not the dead that are changed. Paul was uses accommodative language in this text. The saints who were alive at the Lord's return in 70 A.D. were (changed) from the kingdom of darkness or "ministration of death" known as Judaism to the consummated kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (Col. 1:13). Death was swallowed up in victory. (Cor. 15:51-54) And out of the decay of Judaism arose the spiritual body of Christ. This is Paul's primary meaning of the change.

    For the first time since Adam walked with God in the garden sinful men would now be able to walk with God, talk with Him and He would be among them "forever." (Jeremiah 31:31-34) Consider the words of Paul as he writes, And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them and walk among them, I will be their God, and they shall be My people." ( Cor. 6:16). They became a living sanctuary of God as promised by God in the Old Testaments. They, along with the dead in Christ (1 The. 4:15-16), were "raised" to sit "in heavenly places" in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-4).

    They were gathered spiritually speaking unto mount Zion, the (city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,) and to an innumerable company of angels, (Hebrews 12:18-24). They would never experience the separation of "Sheol." (John 11:26). They would always be with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:17). The deat saints of Paradise were resurrected into the kingdom and the living were translated or changed into it. Paul said to the Colossians that they had been delivered from the kingdom of darkness and translatedinto the kingdom of Christ. In 1 Cor. 15:51-52 Paul was accuring the living that they would suffer no loss of rights or privileges in the kingdom by the dead in Christ.
    They two would for ever be with the Lord.

    Many spiritual realities are beyond the withnees of the flesh. For example our rebirth cannot be evidenced by the physical senses of man (John 3:8) but no believer would, on that basis. deny the reality of it. Why then cannot the same be true of their change or translation into the eternalkingdom of Jesus Christ?
     
  10. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    yes they are parralel, except that Paul speaks of the spiritual redemption in one set(Galatians) and in another set(Romans 8) he also mentions the physical redemption, he speaks of the spiritual redemption as a present reality for him, then he also speaks of the physical redemption as a promise waiting to be fulfilled. they are seperate events...he spoke of them as seperate events.

    it is the same for me, i presently have the Holy Spirit, i am presently redeemed from Law having received the spirit of sonship(blood bought by Christ on the cross), and in the state of grace i will be resurrected, my mortal body raised up and adopted as a physical son because the Spirit of Christ ALREADY dwells in me(and i in Him) giving me spiritual life. but if i turn from this and place myself under thew law; then i am severed from Christ, i have denied the Holy Spirit to rely upon myself, and Christ Himself has told me to deny myself and seek HIS spirit.

    in short i agree with what Paul and Christ had to say, and they agree with me, my words mirror their own, and thiers mine.
     
  11. Crono

    Crono Regular Member

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    Since no one else has simply defined the various millennial views yet, I will do it here.

    Premillennialism - The belief that the second coming of Christ will precede a millennial reign of Christ on earth. Many premillennialists today would say that this occurs after the seven-year Tribulation. This is the belief held by most fundamentalists and many other Protestants.

    Postmillennialism - The belief that Christ will set up a 1000-year reign on earth, after which all people will be judged and sent to heaven or hell. Many postmillennialists would have said that they were living during the Millennium. Although this doctrine has appeared throughout history, I do not know of any denominations that hold it today.

    Amillennialism - The belief that there is no literal millenium. The Second Coming (if it really occurs) flows immediately into the judgement. This is the belief held by the Catholic and Orthodox churches and probably most Protestant churches as well.

    Some people put themselves into a fourth category called Panmillennialism that believes that the existence of a millennium cannot be known, but that isn't very important anyway since everything will just "pan out" in the end. In reality, most panmillennialists are actually amillennialists in practice.

    Of course, there are many different variations within each doctrine. Premillennialism probably has the most variety since it includes the various beliefs about the Tribulation, as Willis Deal alluded to. At the Pizza Parlor, we had an entire thread devoted to just definitions of various end times theologies. If anyone wants to view it, just go here.
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Hi Phoenix, and Christ's blessings.

    Revelation mostly took place at Israel's great tribulation at 67-70AD (although St. John does recount backwards a few decades too on a couple occasions). Rev 20:4-6 tells of the martyred tribulation saints (such as Paul, Peter, James, and all the rest of the martyrs foretold by Jesus in Matt 23:34-38; Luke 21:12-16; Matt 10:17-18; Rev 17:6). It's the same bunch of martyrs. These martyrs were killed throughout the book of Acts and during that final stretch under Nero, as well as those who died in the 3 1/2 years period leading up to AD 70. This group in 20:4-6 is the identical group of dead martyrs in 6:9-11 who were not yet in eternal bliss and were crying out to God, who tells them to wait only a short while (no longer than a few years). Those dead martyrs of 6:9-11 that were waiting to be avenged as they were promised in Matthew 23:34-38, Rev 6:10, and Rev 18:20 are depicted in victory as reigning in the heavenlies with Christ in Revelation 20. These martyrs are said to be part of the first resurrection (Jesus Christ was the first resurrection -- Rev 1:5; 1 Cor 15:20; Col 1:18; Acts 26:23). We are told all throughout the N.T. that we are "raised in and with Christ," and so those saints are "part of the first resurrection -- Christ's. All those who are "part of the First Resurrection" are exempt from eternal death (the second death).

    Now, the second death is one's being cast into hell (Rev 20:14-15). The first death is mere physical dying that is appointed to every human being to experience ONCE (Heb 9:27; Romans 6:9-10; Rev 14:13). So the first death is physical death and the second death is sentencing to Hell (the Lake of Fire). All the saints of God are exempt from the second death! (Rev 20:6; Rev 2:11). None are exempt from the first, physical death (Heb 9:27).

    Still following along?

    The 1000 years is a symbol of the Davidic Monarchy (I believe). The origin of the symbol lies in that it was 1000 years from King David to King Jesus the Messianic King of Israel. Now, the Kingdom actually fell into ruin at the Babylonian exile of the 500s BC, but the prophets foretold of its restoration via the Messiah when he would come. Since Jesus did restore it, St. John portrays Christ's reign in the monarchy as part of an unbroken 1000 years, indicating restoration. The Messiah was prophesied to RESTORE the Monarchy which had fallen into ruin and fulfill it (Acts 15:16-17) -- this hope also included the gentile conversion to Jehovah (Acts 15:16-17; Rev 20:3).
     
  13. Before you end this discussion you must believe and think like Nicodemus. That a man must enter a second time into his mothers womb. Was Jesus talking about a man being born again physical because man died physical because of sin? Patently not.

    Or was Jesus talking about a man being born again spititualy because he was spiritualy dead because of sin? You do not haft to be a scientist to understand that Jesus meant a man must be born again spiritual because he was spiritualy dead.

    Jesus does not seem to agree with you that physical death is the problem (John 3:5) which shows the futurist view is flawed. End of discussion.
     
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Paul does not separate them. Only your presuppositions do, and by thousands of years at that -- something foreign to Paul. Gal 4:1-11 and Romans 8:14-25 are identical in every way. You ASSUME that the Galatians passage was a complete redemption (which it clearly was not -- Gal 5:5; Gal 4:8-12; 4:19-20*; 5:1-5). That forced you to make an absurd error that says they speak of two different things separated by thousands of years. They clearly speak of the exact same thing.

    Very wrong. You are NOT presently redeemed in Paul's theology. Being filled with the Spirit is NOT the redemption as you suppose, but a mere pledge of some future occurence:

    Eph 1:13-14
    AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of "the purchased possession" [i.e., "The Church" - Acts 20:28]


    Paul explicitly calls that receipt of the Holy Spirit a pledge (or "earnest") towards the redemption! It is NOT redemption at all, but only an earnest or pledge. That's all you have. You are NOT redeemed. That's why you can't get into heaven when you die and why I can. The granting of the eternal inheritance is still FUTURE to you (1 Peter 1:3-5; Heb 10:34-39) but PAST to me! Praise the Lord.

    Believing and having the Holy Spirit in the 1st century did not give one redemption, but rather "an earnest of the inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession," -- that purchased possession is the Church (Acts 20:28). You are groaning in the hope of salvation, and sonship, and redemption, and eternal life which are not yet available to you (Rom 8:23-25; Heb 9:28; Eph 1:14, 4:30; Luke 21:28) -- which is why you are not yet adopted and can't get in to heaven when you die. If you walk in the flesh as Christians are capable of then you are back under the Mosaic Law curse (an absurdity after AD 70 since no Law of Moses can be returned to) and are condemned (Romans 8:1-2). If you turn and place yourself under thew law; then i you are severed from Christ (which, again, is an absurdity after AD 70 since no Law of Moses can be returned to). Futurism is just impossible to maintain. AD 70 makes it impossible.

    Romans 8:23-25 is NOT the resurrection of bodies but is the redemption of "OUR BODY" (singular), which equates here to the redemption of the Church in Eph 1:13-14 and Gal 4:1-11.

    So when will The Messenger be redeemed? The scripture tells us plainly:

    Luke 21:28
    But WHEN these things begin to happen, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption is near."

    Ephesians 4:30
    And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption


    For you that hasn't happened yet, which is why you cannot go to heaven at death, as you also admit. None of the dead saints going all the way back to Adam have been helped out by Christ in your system. You are still entangled in a bondage system where eternal life cannot yet be experienced in the afterlife. Nor do you teach a victorious Church in this present age. What a weak theology you have been taught and what a robust and powerful theology is preterism.
     
  15. davo

    davo Member

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    Me-thinks my hunch was correct :mad: You John have not asked your questions from a pure motive of geniune inquiry, but were awaiting your moment, your opportunity to say as you have -and this in deed is duplicitous.

    I had intention to reply to your request but now see that would be futile -typically, I see none of mine answered :(

    You have hinted and inferred by your "cult" remark that preteristic reasoning is therefore non-christian. Is this the prelude to drawing up a limp excuse -"for the protection of our valued members, we are forthwith banning preterist discussion" I hope this hunch is wrong, as that would somewhat sad -though others would be pleased to see us raptured :wave:

    What say you John??

    BTW, GW -thanks for that informative post "I" for one appreciated it. :)

    davo
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Thanks Davo!

    Heya John the Bear.

    Maybe you could tell me your view of the current afterlife situation and options? I'd be especially interested in your understanding of the afterlife and how it compared to the afterlife of, say, King David's time.

    Look forward to your ideas.

    GW
     
  17. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    I don't expect you to be able to keep up with everything that everyone on this thread believes, but I'd think it would stick in your mind that I'm one of the few non preterists which can agree with a lot of what you say.

    I'm not talking about one word in one verse being used as a metaphor. Your entire belief system relies upon God's inability to say 'nation' when He means 'nation', unable to say 'some' but substitutes 'entire'. He talks about bodies rising from the dust but actually means souls rising out of hades. The God your portray is consistently unable (stupid) or unwilling (liar) to explain simple concepts but continually resorts to fantastic terms which have no relevance and are completely out of proportion to the events described.
     
  18. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Acts6:5 and welcome. "lack of faith in our Lord's promised return" -yes that's a good one :( , we're not the one's scoffing are snearing saying: "hah! where is He!" We're the ones saying He kept His word, He returned -We the Church are His Body in this His world [that's in the Bible]. Clear and simple. :clap: And that's not "spiritualising" anything away -I like all am very real.

    davo
     
  19. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

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    If you are a preterist, PLEASE don't come and attack threads positing futurist viewpoints. :)
    I don't come to the pro-preterism threads and declare "unholy war" on them with a blizzard of pro-futurist posts. Neither do most of my fellow futurists. :)
    So please, begin your own threads. Don't send ours astray. :)
     
  20. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Thanks for the welcomes, everyone. I hope to interact with you more in the future (and one day get off the fence).

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
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