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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

Preterist views

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  1. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    I don't know if this is true, but supposedly the term 'millennium' is not used in Revelation in the greek. I think a better translation is 'thousand years' (Young's Literal Translation points this out).

    And we know, based on scripture that such numbers aren't always understood literally (well sorta). I could be wrong, but I think the fact that it says 'thousand years' may have something to do with Exodus 20:6

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  2. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    G'day Jason -just a passing note as I'm heading home after doing a night-shift.

    Here's another bunch:

    Idealists
    Preterists
    Historicists
    Futurists

    Hows that for adding to the pile :wave:

    davo
     
  3. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
    +1
    Christian
    Private
    You tell us that the end of days has already happened. But when I woke up this morning there it was.... another day. The sun came up just like any other day. No one has claimed to see Jesus, let alone everyone... like the Bible says will happen. The Devil is still at home on Earth. Christians are still being persecuted in other countries. Mothers are killing their children. Priest are molesting children. Drugs are destroying the future of our youth. It is so hard to be a child in this new world. :cry:

    I turn on the news and wonder why everything is so wrong . With Jesus is in charge, I really expected more. His Church is being discussed again. Bankruptcy is brought up. I listen further and hear reports about the war. Israel is not making many friends these days. Our President even seems upset with her. I can almost see the countries surrounding her. But of course this is only my imagination because all is well since Christ came back.

    So what is this talk of nuclear weapons ? Sure before Jesus reigned on Earth, and all the evil was destroyed, we may have one day blown ourselves up. But that would be impossible now. There is only one end of time, and it happened long ago in 70Ad. I know at that time, the world must have been judged, as scripture warns. I sure did not expect God to be so lenient. :bow:

    I need to take a new approach. Really none of this is my concern. I will be a perterist. So I will think like one. I will only examine my own life. I am fine. I am well taken care of by God. I see the beauty in nature and the happiness in the eyes of those I love. So indeed if I take a shallow view of life things are glorious. :clap:

    I must admit though, it is still hard to understand, that all the promises were extreme exaggerations. That my Bible is a mere history book and does not speak to me. But I guess the hardest hurdle to get over, is the fact that I must belief that God is through. He will never again save us from ourselves. So when the powers of this world explode in a nuclear war to end all days … God will simply turn his back. :sigh:

    I think I need more help understanding from my new teachers…

    Gw…Davo…Parousia70

    Please talk to me. But do not quote from the Bible For you have explained that it does not relate to my time… it is distant history. Talk to me of the here and now .Tell me again , but in your own words. Help me understand that this is the best that it will ever be. Explain to me that God’s plan is finished. :confused:


    Go ahead and try. But like I said at the beginning. This is insane!

    LOVE
     
  4. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    Uhm...heh those are the 4 end times views. :D
     
  5. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I believe in a literal thousand year reign. The word thousand in the Greek means a plural of uncertain affinity or a literal thousand, so I agree that "thousand" is not always to be taken as literal. If the reign of Christ is not literal, then how would Rev. 20 be interpretted?
     
  6. Craigybabe

    Craigybabe Junior vice trainee secretary

    31
    +0
    Wow! this is one heavy forum!

    Um some do preterists think that Christ has come again already?
     
  7. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0

    actually GW your still wrong, and i am not stuck at all! YOU have a time contradiction on your hands.

    Romans 8:14-17
    For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the SPIRIT of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we ARE children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

    Romans 8:21-25
    because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now ; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.


    i see nothing here but a confirmation of what i have been saying all along, we HAVE spiritual redemption("but you have received the SPIRIT of sonship.")

    we physically "we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies"(body).) which is the resurrection.

    anyone in the new covenant pre 70 was already free from the law

    Romans 7:4-7
    Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But NOW we are discharged from the law , dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit . What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

    you keep saying Paul kept the law post cross as an obligation, Paul's own words rebut you thoroughly

    1 Corinthians 9:20
    To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law.

    the tense thing kills you every time GW.

    in fact YOU yourself are proof i am right! do you have the spirit of God? if so then you have the "spirit of sonship" just like Paul did pre70ad, are you in your glorified immortal, imperishable body? if not then you are waiting on physical sonship just as Paul was pre70ad!

    the spiritual kingdom came with the gospel and the cross. it works now just like it did then
     
  8. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

    +562
    Baptist
    Married
    Catchup,

    Please don't let anyone injure your faith by saying the resurrection has already come. We are warned about these people. Please, I had rather see you leave the board than be injured by these people.


    2TI 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
     
  9. Craigybabe

    Craigybabe Junior vice trainee secretary

    31
    +0
    I think the same think Catchup, How can this be the 'New Earth'? Its a dump, a wasteland. A place so full of corruption and evil sometimes I'd just wish it would blow up. No, Peterists have got their wires crossed. Anyone can see that the Messiah is yet to come. Where are these marks of the Beast that people are meant to have? Anyone seen or heard of an Apocylypttic Horseman slaying countless peopl yet? No. no, no, no, no ,no!!!!
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hiya Catchup.

    I wish to start with a prayer:

    "God give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of his calling and the riches of his glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenlies, FAR ABOVE all principality and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named." -- Eph 1:17-21

    That is a very important prayer. I encourage people to meditate and pray over this prayer. This prayer establishes the goal of every individual in God's Holy Nation. We are God's Holy Nation (1 Peter 2:9) and we have been given this most amazing destiny for our lives and for the Church in both Heaven and on Earth. We are not a weak and disenfranchised people -- we are God's Nation with his destiny and his laws and his Covenant and his Holy Spirit. We cannot fail (Matt 16:18-19; Matt 28:18)

    You seem to have asked us to explain our WORLDVIEW, which we can do. Let's go one at a time.

    Network news is not at all an accurate read of the state of the planet. Let me say that again: network news is not at all an accurate read of the state of the planet.

    Rather, it is a compilation of ALL THE BAD NEWS that is going on worldwide, packaged and delivered into your living room. This fact misleads people into thinking the whole planet is constantly on fire with evil. This is an innacurate picture of our world and comes to us by a slant in reporting called MEDIA BIAS. Because the current news networks are owned by pagans, they typically EXCLUDE most of the countless acts of good that are done every day by you, your Church and even many of those in your community who are not yet saved but who try to live honorable lives and to do right for their kids and communities. Pagan news networks will MOSTLY not reflect God's perspective and vision for the society. When the righteous decide to come back from the endtimes retreat and take ownership of television broadcasting so as to use it according to righteousness and Christ's law (I do not mean via "religious broadcasting") then it will change much of the pessimism in our living rooms. And not just ours, but the living rooms of entire communities. Christians must act in unison and organize efforst to do the following:

    *pray together with our young children that God will raise up an entire generation to positions of leadership in media, news broadcasting, filmmaking, radio, and the Internet with a vision for how to lead these organizations in righteousness and for the good of our communities

    * Create Christan ministries that specialize in meda development for the Church and society

    *pray that God will give wisdom and ability to those who have means in our Churches to purchase radio, newspaper and broadcasting networks.

    * organize churches together to protest un-necessary violence and sex from prime-time television and even cable networks. This can be done very easily using the internet and telephones to jam the email boxes and telephone lines of the current network broadcasters and television producers. Companies ALWAYS respond to the voice of the audience when people are organized to speak up.

    * Compliment networks when they produce good shows for our communities and seek out how to get involved in public television like PBS which has a stated goal of producing educational and uplifting broadcasting.


    I'll come up with more of a plan later. Remember, all dominion has been given to Christ and the Church (Rev 1:5-6; Daniel 7:14,27). The nation of the Church as been granted to outlast every other nation upon the planet and already has outlasted all other nations and the gods of the ancient world. Where did Zeus go? Nothing can prevail against the saints of the most High God, for HIS is the Kingdom and the glory and the power.

    Never forget that today's news broadcasts are a COMPILATION of as much bad on the entire planet as can be gathered and then it is packaged into 30 minutes and channeled into your house. But perfect love casts out fear.

    Finally, I challenge all those who are made fearful by the news to try a very simple spiritual exercise: turn it off. That's right. I promise that those who turn off the news and delve into their families, Churches, and communities will find God's Spirit and strength and optimism for living. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness of it.

    I will move on to the next point later, but I think I already did address who True Israel is at another thread. We must always support TRUE Israel and not champion the cause of unbelievers who are against our Jesus to whom every knee bows.
     
  11. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0


    why thank you!! have i told you how much i admire your name? :D
     
  12. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    Hi Catchup, don't despair. Hold firm to what you believe in and remember these words from the book of James:

    Be patient brethen, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he recieve the early and latter rain.
    Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
    Grudge not one against another, brethen, lest ye be condemned: behold the judge standeth before the door.
    Take, my brethen, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord for an example of suffering affliction and of patience.
    Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord: that the Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy.

    Don't become frustrated, remember that your words are reaching many people.
    Wildfire
     
  13. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    Philippians 215:17
    that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Even if I am to be poured as a libation upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all
     
  14. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    "hyperpartialpeteristichistoricistchilean"

    ;)
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    I have seen numbers above 2 million. The common 1.3 is for the siege under Titus, which was at AD 70. This was the Day of the Lord.


    If the dead are no longer in Hades then the rapture has happened. Most Christians believe that Hades is now empty, and rightly so. Also, what bones? What tombs? Most of the humans that have ever lived on the earth have NO REMAINS and have not been laid in TOMBS. The bible constantly uses "the grave" and "the tombs" to mean the afterlife of the dead.



    This is important here. You have admitted that AD 70 was The Day of the Lord. I think I have even seen you agree that it was the greatest in Israel's history. Now, this makes it impossible that the following verses spoke of some other Day of the Lord, for the verses were spoken a couple decades before AD 70 and the texts say that those alive at the time would live until it happened:


    Philippians 1:6,10
    For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it UNTIL the Day of Christ Jesus.

    And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless UNTIL the day of Christ;


    Notice that the Philippians were told these things were to take place for them UNTIL the Day of Christ. The greatest Day of the Lord in Israel's entire history was less than two decades away.


    1 Cor 1:7-8
    come behind in no gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who will also confirm you UNTIL the end, blameless in the Day of Our Lord Jesus Christ.


    The 1st century Corinthians would be confirmed unto the very end. The greatest Day of the Lord in Israel's entire history was less than two decades away.


    James 5:7,9
    Be patient brethen UNTIL the coming of the Lord. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand ... the judge standeth before the door.


    Are the members of James' congregations STILL exercising patience??? When James said to them that the Lord was at hand and that he was standing at the door did he mean that the Lord was FAR AWAY and NOT at the door? The apostles telling their 1st century flocks to wait patiently for something 2000 years or more away is a false witness.


    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    Paul's blessing is upon their spirit, soul, AND BODY to be preserved complete at the second coming. This is a failed hope for the Thessalonians to whom Paul was speaking if Christ did not return in their generation as he promised them in Matthew 24:33:34, and Christ did promise this and is not a false prophet. If Christ did not come back in their generation as he promised them then we worship a false prophet.
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Messenger,

    I cannot believe that you continue to change what the text actually says:

    "the redemption of OUR BODY" (singular)

    I can't believe you continue to make it a plural when the text is NOT a plural. There IS a plural form of the word "SOMA" that Paul uses in Romans 12:1 when he means a plurality of BODIES. Paul does not in Romans 8:23 mean a plurality and therefore uses the singluar "BODY."

    When we let scripture interpret scripture we see that your WHOLE thesis is in error:

    Since Romans 8:21-25 = Romans 8:14=17

    AND since Romans 8:14-17 = Galatians 4:1-11

    THEREFORE Romans 8:21-25 = Galatians 4:1-11

    Brother you cannot escape this fact of biblical logic. The bible interprets the bible. Parallel passages show us that Romans 8:21-25 IS Galatians 4:1-11 and speaks of bondage to the Law of Moses and being redeemed OUT from that. Sorry. You can try to say that it was already done, but Galatians teaches that they were running right back into THE BONDAGE OF THE LAW OF MOSES. There is no way to avoid this fact that Romans 8:21-25 IS Romans 8:14-17 and THEREFORE IS Galatians 4:1-11.
     
  17. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
    +0
    I'll say it again the preterest should go into the lemonade making business, because they are soooooo goooood at twisting!!!
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,951
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Yes.
    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that The events of the apocalypse were ordained to come to pass "shortly" after they were predicted.

    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that some of the apostles would live to see the 2nd coming.

    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the 2nd coming would occour before the apostles generation had passed away.

    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that on the "new earth" Birth, ageing, murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars, sorcorers and death, continue to exist.

    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Satan was defeated once and for all almost 2000 years ago.

    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Jesus Christ rules this earth Today and evermore.

    That should be enough to get you started anyway!

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Futurism is an eschatology of defeatism concerning the role of the Church and its citizens in our communities and nations today.

    Preterism is an eschatology of victory concerning the role of the Church and its citizens in our communities and nations today.

    The constant fearful statements and dispair that futurists express about the world and their daily lives shows us that their doctrine that fuels such a "defeat mentality" is not based on FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. Compare Joshua to the other spies who were afraid and gave a bad report about the land. That story is like preterists and futurists today. Futurists are the spies who always fearfully say "there are giants in the land!" Preterists are the JOSHUAS who say "THE LAND IS OURS! LET'S TAKE IT. God has given the land to US!"

    God bless!
    GW
     
  20. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>I turn on the news

    Well, see, there you have it, your spending your time looking at what Satan is doing. You should be looking to see what God is doing. He is doing some wonderful things, even in and through His people.
     
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