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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    Gw: When you quote from the Bible it confuses me. :confused:

    I thought Christ was going to stay with us after his return. Wasn't that the plan? Now you tell me he is in Heaven....Far Above. I guess he really wasn't going to live among us again... Was that another lie or just an exzageration?

    Revelations22:3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

    But your personal advise...Now that was right on. :D

    I think that if I just turn away from the troubles of this world. Become more self-centered, it will help me to adopt the preterist view. Those people that were killed in the towers sure put a dapper on the party. The news stations and their coverage brought me to tears. That has to be wrong!I can not tell you how many times I actually felt sorry for the people being blown away by terrorist in Israel. When will I learn that it is not my problem. We are separate. We are not in this together or anything. As long as I have all my limbs...so what! After all it is their misery not mine. I am Happy!!!!!!! Jesus has come back and given me a new world! :clap:

    Everything is so good now....But why does the word INSANE keep coming to mind? :scratch:

    :) LOVE
     
  2. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

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    HANG IN THERE, CATCHUP

    Some people can't see the forest for the trees. But thats okay, not so we can give them a big spiritual "I told you so", but because we love them anyway.

    You know, if we are wrong it doesn't matter, we are here anyway living for and loving the Lord. If they are wrong, they will have spiritual egg on their face when they are caught up to be with the Lord.

    But we can all praise the Lord for who He is and who we are in Him.
     
  3. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

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    GW,
    Boy. I don't know where you get that from. I am a futurist, but that is soooooooooo not me. I am a child of God. If God be for me...who can be against me! I look forward to that glorious day when I go home, not to escape but to rest.
     
  4. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    actually GW, even in singular form the meaning is the same, in fact in singular for it is a reference to a "multitude" or group of people as per the Strong's definitions i provided, that is why Paul says "ourselves" and we" in conjunction with it. so you see i am not changing scripture at all :)

    look at what they SAYS GW, it is more of Paul's teaching that we HAVE(present tense pre70ad) spiritual redemption pre mortal death! :D

    Galatians 4:1-5
    I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no better than a slave, though he is the owner of all the estate; but he is under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father. So with us; when we were children, we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe. But when the time HAD fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to REDEEM those who WERE under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.





    your missing the fact that in Galatians 4 the present spiritual redemption is mentioned by words like "had" and "sent" but in romans the future physical redemption is mentioned with the spiritual redemption. also i cannot understand why you in one argument keep saying "they were under law" and the next say "they were redeemed from law" continually contradicting yourself.

    past tense kills you again GW

    and what was the cost of running back into law? read the next chapter friend...your tearing words out of the bible again Galatians teaches what i teach, that grace had already supplanted law...pe70AD...and you just said so yourself! :D

    Galatians 5:4
    You are severed from Christ , you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace .

    those pasages are the same in regards the (present)spiritual redemption, but Romans adds mention of the future physical redemption. other than that they are the same.

    in other words all those passagres mean exatly what they say! :)
     

  5. Hi Willis I am really surprisrd that you don't understand all the definition of death with all your tools. Adam' sinned and died the very same day he eat of the tree as "God had said" and as a result spiritual death was passed down to all men. On this very same subject Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again.

    My question to you is this. Since you believe God lied and Adam did not die that very day he sinned but as a result of his sin physical death entered into the world. Where in the Bible does it say physical death was a result of Adam's sin. Where is you proof in the Bible that man was never meant to die. I can proof with the Bible that physical is not something the Lord is trying to save us from (Psalms 116:15)

    I believe if you believe something you should be able to proof what you believe with the Bible. So where is your proof that man was never meant to die? And were is your proof the physical death is because of Adam's sin? Or is it that you have no real proof just the unbiblical ideas of men?

    And what is that third definition of death?
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Catchup
    Catchup, don't tell me you don't understand that the term "far above" here has nothing to do with spatial distance upward, but has everything to do with authority, rank, and superiority. Even In your paradigm of a Physical Jesus on earth, surely you would agree that Jesus would be "far above" any other principality yes?
    Preterism simply affirms that Jesus is "far above" in authority any principality or power on earth or in heaven right now!

    Christ did stay with us after His return. He is fully present on earth right now. All you have to do is call His name and He is right there with you! Praise God!
    He is even with you when you don't call His name. Something that would be impossible for a Physical Jesus to do.
    Unless you are proposing that after Jesus returns, each Christian gets their own, personal, physical Jesus at their beck and call, kinda like a Santa Clause on every street corner, with 1 billion Christians it sure would be a long line to get to spend time one on one, face to face with only 1 Physical Jesus to go around.

    In fact, each Christian would get to spend only 3 minutes one on one, fact to face with a Physical Jesus, about once every 850 years.

    How in your mind is that preferable to the time you can spend one on one with Jesus today and everyday right now????
    :scratch:


    Catchup, When has GW or anyone advocated or promoted withdrawal from the world or self centerdness?

    The bulk of his post is about getting involved in the world to effect positive change instead of lamenting from the sidelines that the world must get worse before it can get better.

    That is what you believe isn't it? That the world must get wose before it can get better?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that is what you believe, you must also believe that there is nothing you can do to affect any change or prevent the worsening of the world since it is destined to happen right?

    Again , correct me if I'm wrong here. If I am, please share how you believe you today can prevent the worsening of the world.

    Your statements such as:
    When will I learn that it is not my problem. We are separate. We are not in this together or anything. As long as I have all my limbs...so what! After all it is their misery not mine. I am Happy!!!!!!! Jesus has come back and given me a new world! :clap:

    make me wonder if you are claiming that this is the attitude you believe you will have after Jesus comes again.

    Will it be proper behavior in the New H&E for you to act seperate from everyone else, not caring for anyone or anything but yourself????
    Isn't that what you are suggesting?
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Ephesian,
    I'll ask you what I asked catchup.

    Do you believe there is anything you as a Christian can do to prevent the worsening of the world, or do you believe it has to get worse before it can get better?
     
  8. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    Parousia:
    I am having a hard time converting to your ideas. First GW tells me to turn off the TV and just spend time doing my own thing. Now you come alone wanting me to change the world. You guys are a tough bunch to get a handle on. But its not because I don't love you all and want to please. :hug:

    So, I promise the first thing in the morning I will call the Vatican and make a lunch date with the Pope. I will pencil the President in for Monday coattails. But I do not think I can get to Israel until maybe mid week. Bin Laden, I am sure will come out of hiding to speak to me. So if you can be patient, and give me a couple weeks, I will get this mess all straightened out! I will need your prayers though. I know you have been doing your part on the "End of Times" forum. Trashing all the threads is keeping you extremely busy. So if you can not spare the time I will understand.

    By the way: You forgot to vote on the poll.

    :) LOVE
     
  9. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant Supporter

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    Well, as I know, there are four main schools of thoughts for the revealation part of the bible.
    The preterists(Those that are debating with us, now)
    The historists
    The idealists
    The futurists(Me, thunder and many others)
     
  10. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    the simple answer is..he will.

    also the land alloted to the tribe of Judah will personally belong to Christ.

    Zechariah 2:11-13
    And many nations shall join themselves to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people; and I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. And the LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem." Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD; for he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.
     
  11. Is this a warning because people are leaving the futurist camp by droves. Or is this a warning because people are coming to the preterist camp by the droves? God has the funny idea that the days of his Son was on earth, was the last day. God who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto US by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. (Hebrews 1:1-2). Who were the US? The first century Church.

    The above statement is not the writers opinion. It is inspired writ, i.e., God opinion. And God said those were the last day. Things can be simple. Even profound thins can be simple. Jesus liked to keep things simple. In order to have a new covenant there must be a lest days to the Old covenant and that is what the Bible means.

    The power of the cross is not just the power to save a man's soul, but it is also the power to change the world of sin and death that produced that man. To help us understand this concept we only have to look to Scripture for evidence. (1 Corinthians 15:55-56) Under this New Beginning (New Covenant of grace) we enjoy the abolition of death. For Christians, death is abolished! The Bible tells us so. The old covenant was a ministry of death. The Bible tells us so. The sting of death is sin, and the strenght of sin is the law.

    That covenant is gone, thanks to Jesus, and we are free forever. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2)

    The New Beginning is permanent; it will never change. It is the result of the "last days" of the old covenant of the law.
     
  12. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    So Catchup, if someone were to ask you today where your joy is and what you hope for, what would you say ? Without using the answer that Christ will return in Glory.
     
  13. Nobody ever heard of a pre-tribulation rapture before 1830. In England, where the theory originated, it has all but vanished. Still in America the specter lives on, and at the local church level it persists strongly. Unfortunately many swallowed the new teach "hook line and sinker".

    Morgan Edwards was born in May 9, 1722, in Trevethin Parish, Monmoughshire, Wales about 100 miles from Bristol, England. He died in 1795, long before Margaret Macdonald was ever born, and long before J.N. Darby ever developed his pre-tribulation rapture theory. In fact, the book which by Morgan Edwards giving us his views on eschatology. Was published in 1788- ever before Emmanuel Lacunza's book was completed in manuscript from 1790 The crux of the matter is that Edwards published the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture long be before Margaret Macdonald and J.N.Darby. Edwards' first pastorate was a small church in Boston England. Seven years later he became pastor of Baptist church in Cork, England. It was here he was ordained to the ministry in 1757

    Edwards then resigned from the pastorate after 10 years, and in 1771 became an intinerant evangelist helping the churches of the Southern colonies from the Philadelphia Baptist Association. Morgan Edwards in America was "one of the most important and influential Baptist leaders during the latter part of the eighteenth century." "He is mentioned in all of the histories of Baptists in the United States." Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newman's (A History of the Baptist Church in the United States 1894). Morgan Edwards certainly did bring "strange things" to the Baptist people in America 1788 Edwards believed that the "lake of fire brimstone was "on the moon"! Edwards was a literalist so far as the New Testament was concerned, but not as much as with the Old Testament. Edwards believed that Abraham looked for a real literal city. He acknowledged the Bible was the word of God, while not denying the textual difficulties.

    It is thought that a fifteen year old girl in Scotland by the name of Margaret Macdonald was the originator of pre-tribulation teaching in 1830. It has also believed that the lrvingites in England started publishing this teaching in 1830 after getting it from Margaret Macdonald. It has been published that she was the first ever to teach a pre-tribulation rapture. At any rate, it was in 1830, forty-two years after Morgan Edwards'book was published, in Philadelphia Pa so we know now that she was not the originator of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. Morgan Edwards was the first it ever teach a pre-tribulation rapture. Edwards' book was published in 1788 According to Edwards, the Rapture should have accursed 3 ½ years before the beginning of the Millennium in 1996. This means that the "literal rapture" should have accursed in 1993. Well it didn't!

    From what source did Morgan Edwards get his theory of the pre-tribulation rapture, or was it something that he devised in his own mind independently of others? From statements he made, he evidently felt he was teaching something new. And who was the first to cope it from Edwards in America? Its difficult to believe that the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture was not preached also from the various pulpits where Edwards ministered. One doesn't usually write a book to tell how its influential Baptist leader devised things in his own mind. Unfortunately it is at the church level who is last to find out.
     
  14. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

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    wow, i haven't heard of these four.
     
  15. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Would you mind giving a brief explanation on this one Messenger ?
     
  16. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    my joy is the Lord within me! the very love of God is food for my soul, and water i have tasted so i never thirst again! and my hope is that my faith through the grace of God will bring me eternal life, the LORD has promised good to me and i know he will complete the good work he began in me, and I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God!
     
  17. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Amen JohnR7! We all need to get back to looking at what GOD is doing. Paul commanded: whatever is true and good and right and noble -- think on THESE things.

    The Church is called to focus on goodness, beauty, nobility, peacemaking, and things that build us up in God and help our communities.

    With you in Christ,
    GW
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

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    The Church IS Christ's Body on the earth (Eph 5:30-32; 1 Cor 12:27). Jesus is here. And now WE are the Temple of God and he walks among us (see 2 Cor 6:16; Revelation 21:3). Remember, God's house is Heaven -- "Our Father, who art in Heaven..." Correct? Yet Jehovah ALSO lived in an earthly house known as the Temple. So it is today. God fills all heaven and earth (as always) and God lives in a Temple, His eternal Temple of the Church that is made of LIVING stones (1 Peter 2:5; Eph 2:19-22). You are a living stone in God's Holy and Eternal Temple.



    This same language speaks of Heaven in Revelation 7:14-17. It also signifies that the curse of the Law was removed, the code by which God destroyed his people in the O.T. times due to sin with wars and famines and plagues and destructions. See the curses listed in Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26. God's rebukes were so terrible that the book of LAMENTS was written (read the book of Lamentations and then praise God that you live under the New Covenant Heavens and Earth and not the Old Covenant Heavens and earth!).


    Glad you could follow.


    If you become more CHRIST centered it will definitely help you to adopt the preterist view. Why? Because God's people are the people of His focus upon the earth. God's Church is Israel. God's Church is his Temple wherein he walks (2 Cor 6:16; Rev 3:21). The Church is his Holy Nation and the Royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). So, when we get our eyes off of the world and focus on what Christ and the Church are doing then we find peace and power in the Holy Spirit and Faith, Hope, and Love. It is the CHURCH that God uses to reveal His help and wisdom and judgments amongst the pagans (Eph 3:9-11). It is the Church that gives God glory throughout all generations world without end (Eph 3:21).

    God's focus has ALWAYS been upon HIS PEOPLE whom he called and loves and calls his own sons and daughters. And, God uses all things to work for his greater purposes, even the worst evils. ALL things work for good to those who love Jesus and are called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28). It is for His people that ALL things work for the good of. God's care and concern is focused on Christ and his Church. We must follow His lead and also focus on Christ and the Church, which is God's Holy Nation (1 Peter 2:9). We are the citizens of that Nation.
     
  19. heavens_tears

    heavens_tears Member

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    Catchup-
    I heard this right after our "wonderful" friends decided to kill so many people, I too wondered where God was?
    As far as some of the things you have pointed out this is my take on it.
    God is with each baby who suffers at the hands of a parent to take them home.
    He is with each leader of every country in hopes that they listen to His words.
    God is with each person that has been abused by the hands of a parent or spouse to give them strength and courage to go on.
    God is with the victims families to help them forgive and set their soul free.
    God is with the victims to give them peace.
    God is with each of us who question each night why? Why would you let this happen and to give us strength to get up each morning.

    I know that the world seems so sad, but for one moment I do not think that He has ever left me. He is my Rock, and to that I firmily hold. He gives me things that no one else can, He gives me breath each morning and a heart for loving. He gives me beautiful skys and gentle rain. He give me flowers to look at and cool days to refresh.
    And the best thing He gave me was the knowledge that know matter how much I dislike the people who do this, or feel like my anger will make a difference, I have nothing compared to His wrath when judgement day comes.
    Jesus lives within our hearts and souls right now, but we all know that man still has free will. A gift that some abuse.
    Peace be with you all.
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Wait, hold there. I said that those who feel a lot of anxiety over life and especially over the evening news would INDEED do well to turn of the television and focus instead on one's family life, Church service, and community involvement. THAT'S the range of influence and responsibility God has given to most of us and we MUST serve the planet by doing our best in the realms that we CAN influence. If you feel called to local or city politics then find support with your Church and other Christian political action groups and get involved! Faith, not fear. Action, not retreat. Hope, not dispair. Love, not hate and bitterness.


    Catchup, am I hearing disdain here?

    God's riches be in you.

    And I did vote at the poll, BTW. :)
     
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