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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    The millennial is to be a period of time in which Jesus reigns with a rod of iron. By looking at the way the world is, I can't believe that we are in the Millennium.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well, for starters, the Bookends of Revelation indicate a God ordained time limit on when all the events in the Book must come to pass.

    I little history first on Time limits on prophesy.

    Every time God put a time limit on a prophesy, it was givin to be understood by how time relates to man and not how time realates to God.

    every one , without fail, always.

    70 years = 70 human years
    40 days&nights = 40 human days&nights
    7 days = 7 human days
    the 3rd day = the 3rd human day
    tomorrow = human tomorrow

    The Book of revelation begins and ends with the God ordained human time limit that all the events in the book were to come to pass "Shortly", in human time, after they were predicted.

    2000 years is way beyond this God ordained, human time frame expiration date.

    If the time is expired, we can be 100% confident that the events have transpired.

    The timing of the prophecy is just as important as the events of the prophecy. Think about that for a moment. What purpose would it serve if God gave a specific prophecy of judgment to a wicked nation, telling them that He would fulfill it within a specific time frame, and warned those people of the coming judgment, if the time passages (and the whole prophecy itself for that matter) were actually for some other generation of people? What purpose would the warnings serve the nation to whom it was originally given? To be quite honest, it wouldn’t serve any purpose at all. How would that nation interpret the character and nature of God? That is to say, how would those people view God if He swore that He would judge them at a certain time, and then He didn’t follow through with His judgment? What would they think of God? That He can’t be trusted? That He speaks empty words and threats? That He lied?

    God is true to his word, every part of it, including the "when" it was to happen.

    For a detailed examination of how 2 Peter 3:8 (1000 years is as a day) relates to this topic, click HERE

    I hope this helps!
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  3. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    Hi Messenger,

    Yeah I understand how chiasmus works. From my quote from your previous post I was wandering about your thoughts around how you see the lack of knowledge of "chiasmus" as impinging on how one understands in this instance -"prophetic passages."

    davo
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Why yes I am. 100% literal, however not at all physical.
    We know from scripture that the Temporal things are only temporary, but the spiritual things are eternal. That which is eternal is just as "literal" (and arguably even more so) than that which is temporal.

    The Heavenly city who's builder and maker is God is in fact the new covenant reality we now enjoy. The only ones inside the city are those who do His commandments, outside the city are murderers, dogs, sorcerors, adulterers, liars etc, but anyone who thirsts is welcome to enter the "always open" gates and drink freely of the water of life. How is that not an accurate picture of the Everlasting New Covenant?

    Our "great comission" today is summed up in Rev. 22:17
    And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

    Messenger Who are the Spirit and Bride calling to from inside the gates of the City if everyone who's gonna be there is already there? Who is thirsty? surly not those of us already inside the city, for Jesus said "one drink and you shall never thirst again"

    OK, then I'll rephrase.
    How do you explain the continued presense of evil people on the New earth in Rev. 22 if they were all disposed of in Rev. 20?
     
  5. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0

    well GW, the fact that Christians are suffering and dying everyday seems to be lost on you, in fact this never stopped since the 1st century. many more Christians have suffered and died in the 20th century than the 1st century.



    your exaggerating again GW..."millions" did not die; you yourself used to quote the figure 1.2-1.6 million and a great part of that number was not Jerusalem but Israel as a whole. the city itself was not totally "destroyed" in ad 70 in fact, not until ad 135 was Jersalem totally destoyed, when Hadrian leveled it, cast out Jews who had been living there and built a new city in it's place named Aeolia Capitolina



    because 30ad AND 70ad were not the second coming, for obvious reasons...



    i do not deny it, but it fails as the second coming "Day of the LORD" because scripture has him returning physically and not leaving. you can say he is here spiritually, but he has been here that way since pentecost in 30ad. and did not leave. the second coming is IT...Fini...end of story..harvest time(matthew 13) 70ad does not qualify for that.




    as a spirit He is the Holy Spirit, as Christ the physical manifestation of God he is/was/will be a physical being that will come here and STAY as ruler of the nations, this did not occur in 70ad also there is a definite end and judgment for the world after that(Rev20)



    as we both agree on there have been other what you call "day of the Lord events" this is just another it is not the greatest day of the lord" because one is coming that will far overshadow it.

    as far as when they expected Him to Return, he made it plain to them He would come back when they DID NOT expect Him

    Matthew 24:44
    Therefore you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect


    so why would God take 200 years? i do not know, but i do know Peter said this:

    2 Peter 3:7-9
    But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance .

    so what if he takes 2, 3 or even 4 thousand years! Peter is stressing that God looks at time differently than we do, and God does things on His timetable, not ours.


    from the way you word things you seem to thing you know All God's motivations and thought's, if so your fooling yourself:

    Isaiah 55:9
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    and as far as how the word "you" is used, God in His wisdom wrote the bible to us as well as anyone living in any particular time i know there have been many times when i was reading the Word and the word "you" would appear i knew by the spirit it in fact meant "me" personally. the bible is more than a history book.
     
  6. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    Amen!
     
  7. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    because when things written in chiatic style there is not one point being discussed, but many. so when people say a certain book or chapter of scripture is discussing one issue or subject, they miss out on alot.
     
  8. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Of course Israel has been saved, redeemed out from under the Law by Christ (read Galatians 4:4-5).

    You and I are citizens of True Israel of the Covenant. True Israel is made up of the following citizens:

    (1) Jesus and his first century Jewish followers and converts (Gal 6:15-16; Phil 3:3; 1 Peter 2:9)

    (2) The Old Testament believing jews and converts to the covenant (Eph 2:19-22)

    (3) The gentile converts who were added in during Paul's ministry and made partakers of Israel (Eph 2:11-3:11; Col 2:24-27; Romans 11:17-23)


    That is who Israel is according to the scriptures.
     
  9. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    So I guess not all prophetic passages being chiastic means your original statement was somewhat elastic i.e., more for effect?? -fair enough.
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Of course we are different than the Church as it was during its 40 years of trying to make a break away from the Law of Moses (which existed until AD 70 -- Gal 4:24-25; Heb 8:13; Gal 4:9).

    Eternal life came at the "age to come." (Luke 18:30), and was something they were merely in hope of -- it was a PROMISE but lacking any fulfillment (as in: Luke 18:30, Titus 1:2, 1 Titus 3:7, Tim 6:19, Jude 1:21, 1 John 2:25). After AD70 the Church has not a mere promise or hope, but HAS ETERNAL LIFE ITSELF. It has been granted to ALL the saints as a possession. The dead O.T. saints received eternal life at the close of the O.T. period and were raised in the blink of an eye out of Hades and into their eternal inheritance of Heaven.

    The position of the Church today is different than it was during the last days of the Old Testament era when they had not yet made the switch out of keeping the Law for righteousness. The earliest followers of Jesus were abiding in the Mosaic system as was Jesus. It wasn't until years later that Paul got his revelation and worked with James and Peter to dismiss gentile conversion into the Mosaic Law system. Paul shows us that his earliest converts were going back UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES (Gal 4:1-5:5) at the time the firstfruits generation was groaning to get out from under the curse and bondage of the Law which existed over all who were abiding by the Laws of Moses for righteousness -- until AD 70. The Law of Moses system for righteousness was REMOVED from the planet at AD 70 just like it was given to the planet at approximately 1500 B.C.
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    well, you know whay they say, laughter is the best medicine! I'm glad I am able to contribute to your well being!

    Context.
    When God said He would send the Medes to destroy the "earth" as a Judgement against OT Babyoln, and history shows the Medes infact removed the Bablonain empire from the face of the earth forever, I must assume that either God referred to Babylon as the earth, or God failed to follow through with His promise to use the Medes to destroy the earth.

    which are you more comfortable with?

    If there is a 3rd option, I'd love to hear it as well ;)
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    BODY. SINGULAR. Meaning, the BODY made up of the firstfruits saints with the Holy Spirit and the rest of the creation who lived prior to the Holy Spirit's indwelling. This BODY of all the saints was also looking to come out of bondage and stay out of it in Galatians 4:1-5:5 and Roman 8:14-17.
     
  13. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    hiya P70,

    i view New Jerusalem" as heaven itself. and in reference to those "outside" it means they are..."outside" meaning not in heaven, but in a different place...the lake of fire, they will not be milling about the outside walls of NJ, but in torment, eternally seperated from God physically and spiritually.


    as far as physicalness, a spiritual body is still a "body" right now we are made in the image of God, we are a mix of spiritual and physical, the physical portion of us is tainted by it's sin nature, but after the resurrection that will be Gone we will still be a mix of spirt and flesh, but perfect instead of imperfect..imperishable instead of perishable.

    in a way, it could be said we will be "more human than human" in that the image of God we will exist will be a pefected image. as compared to the imperfect one we are now.

    being made in the image of God, we are trinitarian in nature just as he is. God is eternal, physical, and spiritual..so are we, for example an unbeliever is spiritually dead, doomed to physical death, and continued unbelief will bring about eternal death...they are temporarily 1 for 3 and will end up 0 for 3.(this almost sounds like an annhilationist argument)

    a believer still in his mortal body is temporarily 2 for 3 he is spiritually alive, with a live physical body doomed to death but destined for glorification, after which he will be 3 for 3 eternally

    i beleive the kingdom is the same way, spiritual, physical, eternal, but that is for a different thread :D
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Messenger,
    But who are the Spirit and the Bride calling to, beckoning to enter the city freely, if everyone who's gonna be there is already there?
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Matthew 24:9-13 is not about all the saints who have died for their faith for 2000 years now. Matthew 24:9-13 is PRECISELY parallel to Matthew 10:16-23. Neither you nor I would say that WE are spoken of in Matthew 10:16-23! No scholar says that Matthew 10:16-23 pertains to us. Since it is the same as Matt 24:9-13 then neither does THAT passage pertain to us.

    There is only ONE endtimes generation -- it was the apostles' generation (Matt 24:33-34).



    That number pertainst to the siege under Titus, which was at AD 70. However, many of the jews died in 66-69 since they were all trapped in the city together and were dying of famines, civil war, plagues, and murders. And remember, these were jews from ALL OVER THE EMPIRE who had come down to Jerusalem to observe the spring Passover feasts which was MANDATORY.


    But wait a minute... you have already agreed with me that AD 70 was The Day of the Lord, and the greatest one in Israel's history.

    Therefore Phil 1:6, 1:10, 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Thess 2:2; 1 Cor 1:7-8 ALL PERTAIN to that Day of the Lord that was yet only 2 decades off at the time those passages were written!!! AND, all these passages show clearly that Paul's audience would LIVE until that time and not die before it. Therefore it was indeed the second coming. Christ came at the Day of Jesus Christ "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27) which He had returned to as stated clearly in John 17:5!

    The second coming of Jesus CHrist happened.


    Did I just hear you agree that Jesus Christ came in the Glory of the Father at AD 70?


    Interesting to see you have a BODILY JESUS and now also a SPIRITUAL JESUS. Interesting.

    Now if only I could get you to confess a JESUS IN THE GLORY OF YAHWEH AS SEEN IN THE DAY OF YAHWEH at AD 70. Then you'd REALLY have the Holy Trinity.

    We'll keep working on ya.



    But it HAD to be the Day of the Lord that they were talking about in Phil 1:6, 1:10, 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Thess 2:2; 1 Cor 1:7-8. These were spoken just within 2 decades of Israel's greatest Day of the Lord in its history. AD66-70 was just on the horizon and they all knew it. They were jews and Israelites. It is IMPOSSIBLE that those passages were NOT talking about AD 66-70 and we can tell from reading those passages that they would live until that time! That's what the texts say. We cannot say that it was falsely spoken. Paul said they would live until that event and THEY DID -- it was within 20 years or so of them.

    They did not know the day or the hour.



    Peter says that a thousand of God's years are as one day to us and that one of God's days is as a thousand of our years. The time is fully reversable because time is nothing to God but is something to men on earth. Psalm 90:4 even says that a thousand years are as a watch in the night, which means 3-6 hours.
     
  16. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    LOL GW! i know! this escape from the bondage of the sin nature we all share until we are glorified, which happens at the resurrection... :D

    plural..singular..it's all about the resurrection which is a "singular" event baby!! :) *giggle*

    the spirit has already been redeemed during mortal life, the only thing left needing "redeeming" is the body(ies) of believer(s) and if the body(ies) is(are) left to rot and disappear that is not really a "redemption" is it?
     
  17. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    You are stuck:

    Since Romans 8:21-25 = Romans 8:14=17

    AND since Romans 8:14-17 = Galatians 4:1-11

    THEREFORE Romans 8:21-25 = Galatians 4:1-11

    Brother you cannot escape this fact. Romans 8:21-25 IS Galatians 4:1-11 and speaks of bondage to the Law of Moses and being redeemed OUT from that. Sorry. There is no way around logic provided to us in the scriptures themselves. Let scripture interpret scripture.
     
  18. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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  19. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
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    Hi,

    In light of 4 major end times views, I noticed there are 3 major millennial views:

    premillenialism
    postmillenialism
    amillenialism

    So this is geared towards everyone:

    What are these three views? What do they teach? And which one do you hold on to? I personally don't know all the details about these three. Anyone with answers care to share?

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  20. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
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    Romans 8:23
    and not only the creation, but we ourselves , who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons , the redemption of our bodies.


    ------------------------------------------------------------
    "Soma" Strong's # 4983 noun neuter


    1.the body both of men or animals
    A. a dead body or corpse
    B. the living body
    1. of animals

    2. the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)

    3. is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
    A. so in the NT of the church

    4.that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself


    GW you seem to be using definition 3A while i use defintion 1A either of which does not disqualify the "redemption" spoken of here as meaning the resurrection, in fact since the spirit had been redeemed in mortal life, as i have repeatedly pointed out; the only thing left to need "redeeming" is the Body(ies) and the only way that is done is the resurrection.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
     
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