Freewill?

anonymouswho

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We are presupposing the existence of God for discussing "freewill" on a logical basis?

Yes, of course my friend. Mankind has consciousness. We are (for the most part) rational beings. You may not believe God is rational, but surely you see that our universe is governed by Laws. One set of these Laws is the Laws of Motion. By this Law, we understand that all things are bound by Cause and Effect. Cause and Effect have taken their course since the "Big-Bang". This is because nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. Check this out:

"And the earth was without form (H8414 תּהוּ tohu: confusion, place of chaos):, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

Thus, God brought order to the universe. Cause and Effect took their course, and the Determiner has determined all things. The deterministic way in which our universe works shows that the world is working it's way towards something. You can call this something the "final effect", but because I believe in a ratonal, conscious being, I would call this effect the Reason. That is why John tells us:

"In beginning (no definite article; same as b'reshit in Hebrew) was the Reason...".

I'm discussing this on another forum if you are interested. Thank you friend and God bless you.
 
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anonymouswho

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I don't see this as thwarting God's will. What was God's will? It seems to me his will was for them to freely choose and he was ready for either choice.

Hey thanks for continuing to discuss this with me. God's will was stated in Genesis 1:26

"And God said, Let us make (accomplish) man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

Then, when we skip to chapter two, we see:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

You see? His original purpose played out exactly as He wanted it to.

It sounds like you view the term "free will" in the same way as my Calvinist friend who said there is no free will, only will. How are you defining "free will"? As I said earlier, I don't see a difference in meaning. But, as I also said earlier, I do not pretend to know the answer, I am only speculating with the rest of the forum, therefore I will not argue the point. I can not defend that which I do not understand myself, even though I believe it to be true. Our conscious understanding is not the only understanding the exists. We also understand in the heart. If my heart says it true and my conscious mind can not understand why, that does not mean my heart is wrong. Secular humanism has influenced believers as much as the pagan world. Not everything needs to be proven by rational thought.

Yes, I do believe that we have a "will", but I do not believe it is free. If I "will" to have chocolate, it means that at the time, I want some chocolate. However, I do not desire chocolate just out of the depths of my will. I desire chocolate because I know it tastes good. I know it tastes good because my parents gave it to me as a child. The biological functioning of my body first made (against my will) me hungry, which caused me to desire food to begin with. Then, my remembrance of chocolate from past events caused me to desire it. Everything has a cause, and that which causes you to do something is a direct influence on your will. If something influences your will, then your will is not free from this influence. Yeshua tells us:

"...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:34

Yeshua is not saying that you once had a will that was unfree, and now He has set your will free. He says that we were slaves to sin (against our will), but that He has freed us from this enslavement. We are now servants of God (and more than that, He calls us sons!)

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Luke 17:10

In "heaven", where everything is supposed to be perfect and time does not end, will you have the "freewill" to sin and destroy everything? If you won't have freewill for "eternity", then of what use is it now?

Thank you my friend and God bless.
 
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joshua 1 9

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when you go to a supermarke and choose a product; how sure are you that you did so without your choice being influenced by the marketing forces behind the product?
Now as far as an Omniscient Deity is concerned; it matters not what you choose as the Deity will know what you will choose due to the Omniscient nature of its being.
In short; free will is just a carrot on a stick.
If He is Omniscient then He is also Omnipotent and has unlimited power to do anything. That means He has the power NOT to know what your decision will be if He chooses NOT to know. He has the power not to interfere with your decision so that it is truly your choice.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Yes, of course my friend. Mankind has consciousness. We are (for the most part) rational beings. You may not believe God is rational, but surely you see that our universe is governed by Laws. One set of these Laws is the Laws of Motion. By this Law, we understand that all things are bound by Cause and Effect. Cause and Effect have taken their course since the "Big-Bang". This is because nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. Check this out:

"And the earth was without form (H8414 תּהוּ tohu: confusion, place of chaos):, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

Thus, God brought order to the universe. Cause and Effect took their course, and the Determiner has determined all things. The deterministic way in which our universe works shows that the world is working it's way towards something. You can call this something the "final effect", but because I believe in a ratonal, conscious being, I would call this effect the Reason. That is why John tells us:

"In beginning (no definite article; same as b'reshit in Hebrew) was the Reason...".

I'm discussing this on another forum if you are interested. Thank you friend and God bless you.
Everything has consciousness, just not on the same level as man.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Hello friend, thanks for the reply. It seems you are saying God knows infinite possibilities. This is how I used to reconcile freewill with God's Sovereignty. However, if God knows every possibility that could happen from both A and B, but doesn't know which one you will ultimately choose, then He essentially knows nothing. How can He be sure of anything, if His plan is merely one possibility out of an infinite amount? He says His purpose will stand, and He swears on Himself that this is true. There are no "possibilities" with God, because for God "nothing is impossible" (Matthew 19:26).

Thank you friend and God bless.

It is your flawed assumption he doesn't know which one you will choose. Your assumption was flawed from the beginning when you wrongly thought God said you would choose A and you chose B. He knew from the start you would choose B. If you choose A instead he knows you would choose A.

It is you, and you alone which put the flawed assumption into your statement.

If God knows which one you will choose then He will not think you are choosing A when you choose B, but will have known you will choose B. You can't fool God, only yourself into thinking you can fool God.
 
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anonymouswho

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If He is Omniscient then He is also Omnipotent and has unlimited power to do anything. That means He has the power NOT to know what your decision will be if He chooses NOT to know. He has the power not to interfere with your decision so that it is truly your choice.

Hello friend and thank you for joining us. I'm having trouble understanding what you are saying here. If God knows something, how does He go about "not knowing" it? And if He chose to "not know" what we will do, then how did He know Jeremiah's parents would eventually conceive him?

"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
Be not afraid of their faces: for I amwith thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 1:4

Even before Jeremiah was born, God knew him. It was not Jeremiah's will to speak, but God said he was going to do it anyways. Jeremiah did not have a free choice.

Was it only Jeremiah? Was it only Pharaoh? Did they all make their own "freewill" decisions about what they would do with their lives? Or did God choose them specifically to inflict His will over theirs?

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons" Acts 10:34

Everything has consciousness, just not on the same level as man.

I'm not so sure about this. Do rocks have a conscious? Does water? Or do they just move and flow wherever the wind and earth cause them to go? Likewise with man, except we have the ability to think about it.

Thank you and God bless you friend.
 
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anonymouswho

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It is your flawed assumption he doesn't know which one you will choose. Your assumption was flawed from the beginning when you wrongly thought God said you would choose A and you chose B. He knew from the start you would choose B. If you choose A instead he knows you would choose A.

It is you, and you alone which put the flawed assumption into your statement.

If God knows which one you will choose then He will not think you are choosing A when you choose B, but will have known you will choose B. You can't fool God, only yourself into thinking you can fool God.

I'm sorry friend, I think you misunderstand. My whole argument is that God does know what we will choose. That is why I said "please explain" in my opening. I was asking for an explanation of how my question is possible, because I do not believe it to be possible. I agree with everything you've said here, because I believe God does know absolutely everything we will ever do.

You had stated before that God knows what will happen if we choose A, as well as what would happen if we choose B. I thought this implied "infinite possibilities", and that you were saying God doesn't know which option we will choose, but he knows everything that will happen concerning each option. Like I said, perhaps I was misunderstanding. But as for me, I believe God knows it all, without any exceptions whatsoever. My opening was only to show a contradiction, and then discuss with others how they believe this contradiction can be true. Does that make sense?

Thank you and God bless my friend.
 
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timewerx

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I believe in Reality. Virtual reality is interesting, but I would not base Reality on something that does not actually exist. The reason it is called "virtual" is because it's not real. We, however, live in Reality.

Actually, the "time" most people can perceive at most is the "virtual time".

If you can get to the the real "real time", then you can see the past, present, and the future taking place simultaneously, not everything at the same time though.... Our brain could only process limited information at a time.




It is like basing our Reality on Negative Numbers. Negative Numbers do not physically exist. That is why the square root of a Negative Number is "imaginary". It doesn't actually exist, because the foundational concept of Negative Numbers do not exist.

Do you have any interest in Quantum Mechanics, Particle-Wave Duality, and the Uncertainty Principle? I would love to discuss these things with you. That is why I posted this in the Science forum. I think we can have some interesting conversations.

Thank you my friend and God bless.

Your Welcome and God Bless to you too!

I am interested in Quantum Mechanics....but I never really got to it. I have to get back to my calculus and differential equations from scratch to get deep understanding of it in math. It's been so many years since I was in engineering in college and used anything other than Algebra for the last 13 years in the jobs I held.

If somehow you find my opinion interesting is because I was speaking based on experience. I have the gift to partially see the future. It does not manifest all the time and often it is not a pleasant experience. It is very spooky.

I have attempted a few times to alter the future but I was never successful. Not even a single piece was altered, the "hand of fate" must be too strong.
 
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anonymouswho

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To me these are free choices because if anything they are acting against the lure to drink and freely choosing not to.

Hello friend and thank you. This is a very popular refutation against determinism. Rather than argue that we have the power to "choose", the argument is that we have the power to "not choose". However, just as we are not free from internal and external influence when we choose, we are likewise not free when we "choose" to refrain.

You use the analogy of an alcoholic choosing to refrain from alcohol. It does appear that against all things working against this man's will, he still chooses to refrain. He is indeed free from the clutches of his addiction, but he is not free from the clutches of God. There is a reason the man chooses to refrain. Perhaps it has destroyed his family. He remembers these things, and this rememberance causes him to refrain. The memories and shame (past causes) act stronger on his will than the desire for alcohol. The man is not merely choosing to refrain from alcohol "just cuz". If he could continue drinking and still have a wonderful life, then there was no reason for him to stop. He is refraining because he sees the consequences of his actions. Does that make sense?

Thank you and God bless.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I'm sorry friend, I think you misunderstand. My whole argument is that God does know what we will choose. That is why I said "please explain" in my opening. I was asking for an explanation of how my question is possible, because I do not believe it to be possible. I agree with everything you've said here, because I believe God does know absolutely everything we will ever do.

You had stated before that God knows what will happen if we choose A, as well as what would happen if we choose B. I thought this implied "infinite possibilities", and that you were saying God doesn't know which option we will choose, but he knows everything that will happen concerning each option. Like I said, perhaps I was misunderstanding. But as for me, I believe God knows it all, without any exceptions whatsoever. My opening was only to show a contradiction, and then discuss with others how they believe this contradiction can be true. Does that make sense?

Thank you and God bless my friend.

Then you should not make statements such as : "However, if God knows every possibility that could happen from both A and B, but doesn't know which one you will ultimately choose, then He essentially knows nothing."

This to me is an argument against the very thing you say you support, so to me you were arguing against the very thing you say you support???? Perhaps we were both misunderstanding, but your original assumption was still flawed. One can not choose B if God knows you are going to choose A because you will choose A, and vice versa.
 
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46AND2

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Not necessarily. If God was still omnipotent, or even sufficiently powerful, he could reasonably steer events towards any given proximal result.

This is no different than being omniscient about the future.
 
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Tree of Life

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Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

As for the example you've provided it's totally incoherent. If God knows that you will choose A then you will choose A otherwise the first half of the sentence is hogwash.

In terms of freewill I think it's fairly obvious that we mostly have it. Having freewill means that I am able to do what I want to do. It means that my choices are mine and I made them wanting to make them. It means I am not otherwise coerced or restrained by forces outside of myself when I make choices. So unless you're in prison, have a gun to your head, or some other bizarre scenario you have freewill.
 
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lesliedellow

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As for the example you've provided it's totally incoherent. If God knows that you will choose A then you will choose A otherwise the first half of the sentence is hogwash.

In terms of freewill I think it's fairly obvious that we mostly have it. Having freewill means that I am able to do what I want to do. It means that my choices are mine and I made them wanting to make them. It means I am not otherwise coerced or restrained by forces outside of myself when I make choices. So unless you're in prison, have a gun to your head, or some other bizarre scenario you have freewill.

Except that is not what an Arminian or open theist would mean by free will.
 
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expos4ever

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Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.
A very interesting question (Freewill), of course. With respect to your A,B question: I believe your scenario is not possible - if God knows you will choose A, you will indeed choose A, but can still do so perfectly "freely". I used to think that if God knows that I will choose A, this robs me of my freedom to choose B. But I have since been convinced this is not so, although I forget the relevant argument (which is relatively subtle, if I recall). Also, your A, B question can be completely generalized away from a religious setting. In other words, if we imagine that there is any agent who perfectly knows the future, you get the same fundamental question.
 
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lesliedellow

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What other sense of freewill is anyone really interested in?

Probably none in practice, but they still don't like the idea of their ultimate destiny being exclusively in God's hands, rather than in their hands.
 
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expos4ever

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Logically, our choices are dependent on what God knows we will do.
Just so we all realize this is a lot more complicated than it might seem, consider the following treatment from the respected Stanford Encyclopdia of Philosophy:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

I confess I have not read it, but the point is that it is certainly not obvious that if God know the future perfectly, this robs us of our free will. I believe this is actually not the case, but I forget how I came to that conclusion. But I do remember, it was a complicated argument that convinced me that God can know the future without robbing us of free will.
 
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expos4ever

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On the face of it, an event either has a cause, or it is random. Neither option seems overly friendly to the notion of free will.
Agree. But I have always been suspicious of the concept of "randomness". I politely suggest that if you try to think of any event that you think has a random outcome you will find that your mind will be inclined to reject that possibility as you analyze the event in detail.

Obvious example is a coin flip. It may seem to produce a random outcome, but it does not take much thought to be convinced this is not the case.

Other examples are not so obvious but I speculate you will always end up in the same place: finding the notion of "randomness" to be not sensible.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Hello friend and thank you for joining us. I'm having trouble understanding what you are saying here. If God knows something, how does He go about "not knowing" it? And if He chose to "not know" what we will do, then how did He know Jeremiah's parents would eventually conceive him?

"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
Be not afraid of their faces: for I amwith thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 1:4

Even before Jeremiah was born, God knew him. It was not Jeremiah's will to speak, but God said he was going to do it anyways. Jeremiah did not have a free choice.

Was it only Jeremiah? Was it only Pharaoh? Did they all make their own "freewill" decisions about what they would do with their lives? Or did God choose them specifically to inflict His will over theirs?

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons" Acts 10:34



I'm not so sure about this. Do rocks have a conscious? Does water? Or do they just move and flow wherever the wind and earth cause them to go? Likewise with man, except we have the ability to think about it.

Thank you and God bless you friend.
Jer 19:5 "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:" If God knows everything then how did He not know this?
 
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lesliedellow

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Jer 19:5 "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:" If God knows everything then how did He not know this?

He did know. "Neither came it into my mind," means that it never came into his mind to command it as an appropriate way of worshipping him.
 
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