Freewill?

AsPatat

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Hello friend. I'm sorry if this is new to you, but please understand that I believe freewill is impossible because the Scriptures tell me:

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:9

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." Proverbs 16:9

"There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand." Proverbs 19:21

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

These are just a few, but I believe every word of them. The Scriptures never tell us we have a free will, so I have no use for it.

Everything else we may talk about, such as determinism, compatibilism, the uncertainty principle, or any other nonsense is utterly meaningless.

Believe the Scriptures, ask God, and He will teach you all things.

God bless you my friend.

So how do you align the following verses with predestination?
  • "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth," (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
  • "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance," (2 Pet. 3:9).
 
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anonymouswho

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If I offered the child a choice between two things he liked equally, I would have a 50/50 chance of knowing. If I offered the child a choice between a cabbage and a candy I could probably be 100% certain what the child would choose. (Although there could also be an exception I guess.) The point is that my knowing or not knowing does not determine what the child chooses. But you are right that the choice could be determined by a belly full of snickers, that he chose to eat. :)

May God bless you also!

Sorry my friend I didn't realize this was yours also. I will try to address everything.

I believe if you offer a child something they like equally, you have a 50/50 guess. It may be your best educated guess, but it is a guess nonetheless. If you give a child a choice between cabbage or candy, then based on your limited understanding of all things, the best we could ever do is 99.9% surety (although such a thing is incoherent to clay such as us).

And this small percentage is why we don't know one thing that will happen in the future. James tells us:

"Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away." James 4:14

I just saw your new message. I'm not sure what the rules are here, so I will only quote Scripture when answering questions like this.

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." Isaiah 45:3

Thank you friend and God bless.
 
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AlexDTX

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Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.
This is an excellent question. I do not pretend to know the answer, either. I talked to a Calvinst once who said there was no free will, only a will. This distinction was not clear to me. I don't think God's omniscience is a factor in our free will. Just because God knows the choices we make before we make them doesn't mean the choice has been made by God. It is still us that makes the choices.

Likewise just because there are factors of environment, prior experiences, etc., that channel our possible choices, doesn't mean we don't have a free will. Consider Adam and Eve. They had a perfect environment, no worries or cares because they did not need clothing or shelter, and all the food they needed was already there for them to eat. They were only forbidden one thing, that is not to eat from the tree of knowledge. The tree of life was not forbidden and they could have eaten from that first, but they did not, presumably because they did not see a need for it. They had a choice to trust God and believe his warning or trust the serpent and believe its lies. God foreknew that they could choose to believe the serpent, which is why Christ was foreordained to die on the cross before the foundation of the Earth. However, the reality still had to play out. What would they choose? So, evidently, what God knows is still not the same as the what actually occurs.

I believe we all have free will, including the animals. But I don't think I can prove it, only speculate.

I find everyone's answer very interesting. Thank you for posing the question.
 
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anonymouswho

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According to that, I have deduced that in order to demonstrate free will, your actions become completely undetermined by the current situation.

Thus, you become quite unpredictable.

But people will look at you as insane or even mad, don't you think??

Christ has been accused of madness, Vincent Van Gogh too.... Madness seems to be the stuff legends are made of.... But that is also what makes them truly free.... Vincent Van Gogh, thinks so, and he may be right.

Hey timewerx, I was hoping you'd join us. I've read some of your stuff and I can tell you're not afraid to ask questions.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. You said that in order to demonstrate freewill, our actions become completely undetermined. I might be way off track, but are you saying that if you wave your arms and shout "blah blah blah" to demonstrate freewill, these actions are undetermined?

If I we're to ask you why you did that, would you not say "because I was demonstrating freewill"? Had the issue of freewill not come up, you would have no cause to wave your arms in the air. Maybe you mean something else, but I see this a lot. By see this, I mean people literally wave their arms around and tell me it was random. It seems to be the universal way of demonstrating freewill, and is actually pretty funny.

People do consider Van Gogh as a crazy man. Perhaps he was. If he really was crazy, he had a mental illness that caused his craziness. If he was driven crazy, then something caused this as well. Yeshua was not crazy, but He was without sin. God caused this also.

Thank you friend and God bless you.
 
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anonymouswho

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No, God knows you can choose either A or B and the outcomes of both choices. A is the proper choice but if He forced you to choose A instead of B, then you would have no free will. You are free to choose B, even if He told you A is the right choice.

Free will means you can choose B even if told A is the best choice. If forced to choose A you would be nothing but a robot with no free will. He see the outcomes of all possible choices. Free will means you can choose any you want - even if it's not the best choice in the long run. But since you can't see the end from the beginning you might wrongly assume B is the correct choice over A.

Hello friend, thanks for the reply. It seems you are saying God knows infinite possibilities. This is how I used to reconcile freewill with God's Sovereignty. However, if God knows every possibility that could happen from both A and B, but doesn't know which one you will ultimately choose, then He essentially knows nothing. How can He be sure of anything, if His plan is merely one possibility out of an infinite amount? He says His purpose will stand, and He swears on Himself that this is true. There are no "possibilities" with God, because for God "nothing is impossible" (Matthew 19:26).

Thank you friend and God bless.
 
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anonymouswho

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This is an excellent question. I do not pretend to know the answer, either. I talked to a Calvinst once who said there was no free will, only a will. This distinction was not clear to me. I don't think God's omniscience is a factor in our free will. Just because God knows the choices we make before we make them doesn't mean the choice has been made by God. It is still us that makes the choices.

Likewise just because there are factors of environment, prior experiences, etc., that channel our possible choices, doesn't mean we don't have a free will. Consider Adam and Eve. They had a perfect environment, no worries or cares because they did not need clothing or shelter, and all the food they needed was already there for them to eat. They were only forbidden one thing, that is not to eat from the tree of knowledge. The tree of life was not forbidden and they could have eaten from that first, but they did not, presumably because they did not see a need for it. They had a choice to trust God and believe his warning or trust the serpent and believe its lies. God foreknew that they could choose to believe the serpent, which is why Christ was foreordained to die on the cross before the foundation of the Earth. However, the reality still had to play out. What would they choose? So, evidently, what God knows is still not the same as the what actually occurs.

I believe we all have free will, including the animals. But I don't think I can prove it, only speculate.

I find everyone's answer very interesting. Thank you for posing the questio

Hey Alex, thank you for replying. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to copy something that I wrote on a different forum because it's pretty long. It's about how I've come to interpret Genesis, because I cannot believe that God's will was thwarted right from the very beginning.

"And God said, Let us make (H6213 עָשָׂה asah: accomplish) man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God tells us right in the first chapter what His purpose is for mankind. He is making us in His Image, after His Likeness. This required something that Adam and Eve did not possess when He made them: the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I believe this next verse is where the true confusion lies:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Heb. dying thou die)." Genesis 2:16-17

Here, we see that God tells Adam he may eat of every tree in the Garden. Then God warns man that when (because it was gonna happen) He eats of the Tree of Knowledge, he will die.

The problem with the translation is the word "shalt" in "thou shalt not eat of it". The word shalt is not in the original Hebrew. The original says:

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ (of the tree) הַדַּ֙עַת֙ (of the knowledge) ט֣וֹב (of good) וָרָ֔ע (and evil) לֹ֥א (not) תֹאכַ֖ל (eat) תֹאכַ֖ל (of)

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-17.htm

God did not "command" them regarding whether they could eat of the Tree, He warned them of the consequences when they did eat. With this in mind, let's see if we can make sense of this all.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

So now we are introduced to the Serpent, whom God had made more subtile than any other beast. Right from the beginning he lies to to Eve. God never said they may "not" eat of every tree, He said they "may" eat of every tree. This confuses Eve, but she responds with what God had told her:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye [shall] not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2-3

Then the Serpent lies again, but deceives Eve by mixing his lie with truth:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as (like) gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

Eve did not know any better when she ate the Fruit. She had no knowledge of either Good or Evil. How could she have made a rational decision? This was all in perfect alignment of God's original and only plan. God verifies that everything is going according to His plan next:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as (like) one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

You see my friend, this was not a huge mishap on God's part by which He had to resort to plan B. There is no plan B.

God desired to make man in His Image, and this required the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God Himself planted the Tree and made the Serpent to tempt Adam and Eve. Everything went perfectly.

And now we see Yeshua, the man that is the express Image of God.

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" Hebrews 1:3

I hope this all makes sense to you. Thank you friend and God bless.
 
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Mister_Al

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Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

Your premise is flawed. If God knows that you will choose A and you choose B then God didn't really know which one you were going to choose after all. Furthermore, if God knows you will choose A and you choose B doesn't that mean you were able to fool God, and wouldn't that mean you are smarter than God in order to be able to trick Him?

Free will doesn't have anything to do with God knowing what choice you are going to make. But it does mean that God won't force you to make a different choice than the one you've decided to make even if He knows the choice you're making, and knows that it is the wrong one.

Alan
 
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timewerx

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I'm not quite sure what you mean. You said that in order to demonstrate freewill, our actions become completely undetermined. I might be way off track, but are you saying that if you wave your arms and shout "blah blah blah" to demonstrate freewill, these actions are undetermined?

I think I might have done that, can't remember though....

What I mean when everyone is sad and afraid, you are just happy for no reason. You're not doing it to keep the moral up, you're simply being happy.

It's being like children.



People do consider Van Gogh as a crazy man. Perhaps he was. If he really was crazy, he had a mental illness that caused his craziness. If he was driven crazy, then something caused this as well. Yeshua was not crazy, but He was without sin. God caused this also.

Vincent Van Gogh is aware of everything that's happening to him including his mental illness.

He is a Christian who had strong aspirations for serving in the church as a preacher some day. He did some missions but the way he did it annoyed the church elders. So he left the church and did art.

To keep it short, the art Vincent did was the expression of his love for God. This is why his paintings became priceless because you really can't put a price tag on true love. And things you do for God are never forgotten.
 
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anonymouswho

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Your premise is flawed. If God knows that you will choose A and you choose B then God didn't really know which one you were going to choose after all. Furthermore, if God knows you will choose A and you choose B doesn't that mean you were able to fool God, and wouldn't that mean you are smarter than God in order to be able to trick Him?

Hello and thank you for the reply. I don't believe in freewill. I was asking for an explanation as to how my premise is possible. I don't believe it is possible because freewill is impossible.

However, I do agree with pretty much everything you've said. Thank you friend and God bless.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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The way I see it, God has a plan for all of us and has set up a long list of blessing to enrich our lives if we are receptive of him. He speaks through many outlets, sometimes people he's put in our path or incidents to jolt us back to what's important. The one way i think he talks to us is through our own conscience.

The Path one might be the one he hopes we will choose and he will send us twinges to give us a second thought about what direction we will take, but many time we want something so much that we ignore them. I that case God doesn't turn his back on us, but I can visualize him taking a seat and grabbing the popcorn.
 
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Locutus

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In my opinion you are over-thinking this. I offer my child a choice between two candies. He chooses one. The child made a choice. I knew which one he would choose as I know what he likes. You could argue that there were external influences. That does not change the fact that the child was free to choose. If I provided no candy, only apples, that would be no free will.

In my own opinion, you are under-thinking this. That's not a slight, ftr. Few theists have thought through the implications of the free will claim, so you're in good company :)
 
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Locutus

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The point is that my knowing or not knowing does not determine what the child chooses

But you knowing is not the same as an Omniscient being knowing. In which case, can the child choose something an omniscient being isn't expecting?
 
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Locutus

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I don't think God's omniscience is a factor in our free will. Just because God knows the choices we make before we make them doesn't mean the choice has been made by God. It is still us that makes the choices.

Likewise just because there are factors of environment, prior experiences, etc., that channel our possible choices, doesn't mean we don't have a free will. Consider Adam and Eve. They had a perfect environment, no worries or cares because they did not need clothing or shelter, and all the food they needed was already there for them to eat. They were only forbidden one thing, that is not to eat from the tree of knowledge. The tree of life was not forbidden and they could have eaten from that first, but they did not, presumably because they did not see a need for it. They had a choice to trust God and believe his warning or trust the serpent and believe its lies. God foreknew that they could choose to believe the serpent, which is why Christ was foreordained to die on the cross before the foundation of the Earth. However, the reality still had to play out. What would they choose? So, evidently, what God knows is still not the same as the what actually occurs.

I believe we all have free will, including the animals. But I don't think I can prove it, only speculate.

.

1) if you believe god's omniscience is not a factor, can you choose something he's not expecting (which would release dependence upon omniscience)?

2) adam & eve made choices already known (made) and only made from the available options. all options provided by the omniscient god who planned that they would make such choices. can you point to the free will in that scenario? In other words, if god planned everything that would ever happen (which is what many theists claim), he not only planned what choice they'd make, he provided the conditions and materials needed to 'force' them into that choice.

3) I believe that in the case of an Omni-everything god, we have merely the appearance of free will. Unless anyone is prepared to demonstrate how an omniscient, who planned everything that would ever happen, can be surprised.
 
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anonymouswho

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I think I might have done that, can't remember though....

What I mean when everyone is sad and afraid, you are just happy for no reason. You're not doing it to keep the moral up, you're simply being happy.

It's being like children.

I've definitely done it before. Actually, I remember doing it for myself, while I was all alone, to try and prove to myself I was doing something random. It was pretty silly.

If you are happy, there is a reason. When everyone is sad, I trust God, and because of this, I remain happy.

Vincent Van Gogh is aware of everything that's happening to him including his mental illness.

He is a Christian who had strong aspirations for serving in the church as a preacher some day. He did some missions but the way he did it annoyed the church elders. So he left the church and did art.

To keep it short, the art Vincent did was the expression of his love for God. This is why his paintings became priceless because you really can't put a price tag on true love. And things you do for God are never forgotten.

True love. That is what the Father feels toward all of us, because He is Love. Without Him, there would be no love. We love God, but it is not because we just randomly decided to love Him one day. Why do you love God my friend?
 
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Locutus

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Your premise is flawed. If God knows that you will choose A and you choose B then God didn't really know which one you were going to choose after all. Furthermore, if God knows you will choose A and you choose B doesn't that mean you were able to fool God, and wouldn't that mean you are smarter than God in order to be able to trick Him?

Free will doesn't have anything to do with God knowing what choice you are going to make. But it does mean that God won't force you to make a different choice than the one you've decided to make even if He knows the choice you're making, and knows that it is the wrong one.

Alan

your first para demonstrates well the problem with the claim of free will (as perceived/believed by theists).

your second appears to be an assertion designed to insert some breathing space. space to avoid for the inescapable link between an Omni-everything god who planning all that would ever happen, and the free will claim.
 
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katerinah1947

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Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

Hi,

Why is: God knows I will choose A, a true and proven true statement?

LOVE,
 
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lesliedellow

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Hi,

Why is: God knows I will choose A, a true and proven true statement?

LOVE,

Because the Bible is choc full of passages which imply God's omniscience. Not even Catholics sit that light to the Bible.
 
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katerinah1947

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Because the Bible is choc full of passages which imply God's omniscience. Not even Catholics sit that light to the Bible.

Hi,

We all specialize., and I am now looking up your statement.

Did you mean that even Catholics, meaning me, can't be that clueless about the concept of Omniscience being an Absolutely true statement?

I actually don't know that, yet.

LOVE,
 
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lesliedellow

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Did you mean that even Catholics, meaning me, can't be that clueless about the concept of Omniscience being an Absolutely true statement?

I meant that Catholics are famous for getting their theology from Church tradition, and paying relatively little heed to the Bible. Admittedly things have improved a bit since Vatican II.

However, God's omniscience has been a given of Christian theology since the beginning of time.
 
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