Freewill?

[katerinah1947]

I meant that Catholics are famous for getting their theology from Church tradition, and paying relatively little heed to the Bible. Admittedly things have improved a bit since Vatican II.

However, God's omniscience has been a given of Christian theology since the beginning of time.

Hi,

Yes. I have the same problem that you mentioned with Catholics.

To be all inclusive, each group that I work with has a problem with God, in one area or another one.

At least, so far that is true.

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

I meant that Catholics are famous for getting their theology from Church tradition, and paying relatively little heed to the Bible. Admittedly things have improved a bit since Vatican II.

However, God's omniscience has been a given of Christian theology since the beginning of time.

Hi,

Yes. I have the same problem that you mentioned with Catholics.

To be all inclusive, each group that I work with has a problem with God, in one area or another one.

At least, so far that is true.

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

Great! Four identical posts.

LOVE,

 

[lesliedellow]

Hi,

My first reference provided no proof, rather it provided an interpretation of Omniscence. A personal one.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/omniscience-of-god.htm


Yes, I will keep looking.

LOVE,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm#IID1

Scroll down to "Divine Knowledge".

 

[katerinah1947]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm#IID1

Scroll down to "Divine Knowledge".

Hi,

There is an 'or' statement there. That 'or' statement takes their description, from absolute, to a maybe statement.

That God is omniscient or possesses the most perfectknowledge of all things, follows from His infiniteperfection.


Further, in that same reference, www.newadvent.org, there is no reference for the word omniscient.

Thanks, and I will keep looking also, to try and find proof of omniscience.

LOVE,

 

[lesliedellow]

Hi,

There is an 'or' statement there. That 'or' statement takes their description, from absolute, to a maybe statement.

That God is omniscient or possesses the most perfectknowledge of all things, follows from His infiniteperfection.


Further, in that same reference, www.newadvent.org, there is no reference for the word omniscient.

Thanks, and I will keep looking also, to try and find proof of omniscience.

LOVE,

The right hand side of the or statement is Catholic type lingo for the left hand side.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

In the sense that, started this thread, after four references, still I see nothing, supporting God, knows what ours answers will be.

Instead, I see the concept of being able to know all that is going on.

I also see the concept of Him knowing more than anyone else, as all knowledge comes from Him in the first place.

I will keep looking.

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

The right hand side of the or statement is Catholic type lingo for the left hand side.

Hi,

Really? I'll look again.

LOVE,

 

[lesliedellow]

Hi,

Really? I'll look again.

LOVE,

From the New Advent article:
"That God knows infallibly and from eternity what, for example, a certain man, in the exercise of free will, will do or actually does in any given circumstances, and what he might or would actually have done in different circumstances is beyond doubt — being a corollary from the eternal actuality of Divine knowledge. So to speak, God has not to wait on the contingent and temporal event of the man's free choice to know what the latter's action will be; He knows it from eternity. But the difficulty is: how, from our finite point of view, to interpret and explain the mysterious manner of God's knowledge of such events without at the same time sacrificing the free will of the creature."

 

[katerinah1947]

The right hand side of the or statement is Catholic type lingo for the left hand side.

Hi,

Yes I am getting further now. Only, 20,000 or 30,000 more words to go.

Thanks Leslie......

Actually, for real, Thanks.

(Just when did I get remedial again? Argh, and Oh Well! )

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

From the New Advent article:
"That God knows infallibly and from eternity what, for example, a certain man, in the exercise of free will, will do or actually does in any given circumstances, and what he might or would actually have done in different circumstances is beyond doubt — being a corollary from the eternal actuality of Divine knowledge. So to speak, God has not to wait on the contingent and temporal event of the man's free choice to know what the latter's action will be; He knows it from eternity. But the difficulty is: how, from our finite point of view, to interpret and explain the mysterious manner of God's knowledge of such events without at the same time sacrificing the free will of the creature."

Hi,

Yes that part got me. I will look up free will again, as God Knowing seems to eliminate free will, or does it?

If I were to take The Adam and Eve situation in this context, then why is that merely not a growth experience, with all hands on deck, including Satan, in Making us grow?

LOVE,

 

[[serious]]

Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

The freewill question is troubling, but I think this is not a well built scenario to address it. It conflates knowledge of events with control of such events.

Here's an analogy. Say I hate fish, but love chicken. Seriously, fish is just the worst thing ever to me. I just find it gross. Not only that, but I'm allergic to boot. I'm invited to a wedding and they ask me if I would like the chicken or the fish. The choice is still mine. I have free will and could check the box next to fish. Now, if my wife sees the invite before me, she will certainly know what I will choose even though she is not in any way abridging my ability to chose.

One could argue that the architect of those choices may be functionally removing those choices and subverting my ability to exercise free will. The bride to be might know about my fish allergy and be aware that by going with chicken and fish as options I can really only choose chicken. That is where the free will argument gets interesting to me. It means that if God has perfect foreknowledge of future events and intercedes to shape those events, by extension he is choosing the precise outcomes to include those choices we think are our own.

 

[lesliedellow]

The freewill question is troubling, but I think this is not a well built scenario to address it. It conflates knowledge of events with control of such events.

Here's an analogy. Say I hate fish, but love chicken. Seriously, fish is just the worst thing ever to me. I just find it gross. Not only that, but I'm allergic to boot. I'm invited to a wedding and they ask me if I would like the chicken or the fish. The choice is still mine. I have free will and could check the box next to fish. Now, if my wife sees the invite before me, she will certainly know what I will choose even though she is not in any way abridging my ability to chose.

One could argue that the architect of those choices may be functionally removing those choices and subverting my ability to exercise free will. The bride to be might know about my fish allergy and be aware that by going with chicken and fish as options I can really only choose chicken. That is where the free will argument gets interesting to me. It means that if God has perfect foreknowledge of future events and intercedes to shape those events, by extension he is choosing the precise outcomes to include those choices we think are our own.

Without rereading it, to make sure there is nothing I disagree with, I could hardly have put it better myself.

 

[katerinah1947]

From the New Advent article:
"That God knows infallibly and from eternity what, for example, a certain man, in the exercise of free will, will do or actually does in any given circumstances, and what he might or would actually have done in different circumstances is beyond doubt — being a corollary from the eternal actuality of Divine knowledge. So to speak, God has not to wait on the contingent and temporal event of the man's free choice to know what the latter's action will be; He knows it from eternity. But the difficulty is: how, from our finite point of view, to interpret and explain the mysterious manner of God's knowledge of such events without at the same time sacrificing the free will of the creature."

Hi,

Am I missing something, or is there a great deal of uncertainty, in those articles on God and free will

Those articles are complex, and there is some internal opposition.

If I combine both free will there, and God's Knowledge, then there is no chance for anyone, including Satan to be Condemned for eternity, as all of us only strive for what is good, and what we call sin now is merely an immature state on our chosen path to perfect goodness.

LOVE,

 

[lesliedellow]

Hi,

Am I missing something, or is there a great deal of uncertainty, in those articles on God and free will

Those articles are complex, and there is some internal opposition.

If I combine both free will there, and God's Knowledge, then there is no chance for anyone, including Satan to be Condemned for eternity, as all of us only strive for what is good, and what we call sin now is merely an immature state on our chosen path to perfect goodness.

LOVE,

That which is implied by the divine attributes of omnipotence and omniscience seems to me clear. What is more, the Bible seems to be of the same opinion - i.e. that God preordains all things. However, there are many people in both Protestantism and Catholicism who don't like what seems to be implied, so it has been an ongoing debate at least since the time of Augustine.

 

[46AND2]

The problem with free will is that it goes beyond just God being an omniscient observer. He is also alleged to be the omnipotent creator. Therefore, if your definition of God includes those attributes, then God necessarily made all choices for everyone, the moment he chose to create this universe.

 

[anonymouswho]

Hi,

Why is: God knows I will choose A, a true and proven true statement?

LOVE,

Hello and thank you for replying. I'm sorry I haven't written you sooner. I work third shift and I accidentally dozed off.

I find this to be a very legitimate question. Never should we claim something as truth, if the Scriptures do not explicitly say it is truth. Hopefully I can clarify why I believe this:

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:9

God does not "hope" or "wish" that His purpose will stand. He swears it on Himself, because there is no higher name for Him to swear on. YHVH is His name.

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." Isaiah 45:23

Brown-Driver-Briggs concordance says of YHVH:

"on literature of interpretations see NesEg.67 Drl.c. — Many recent scholars explain יַהְוֶה as Hiph`il of היה (=היה) the one bringing into being, life-giver(compare חַוָּה Genesis 3:20) Schr HSch; giver of existence, creator, Kue Tiele; he who brings to pass (so already Le Clerc), performer of his promises, Lag, NesEg.88 (but NesEg.91 inclines to Qal asRSBrit. & For. Ev. Rev see below); or fromהיה he who causes to fall, rain or lightning RSOTJC.ed.1, 423; om.ed.2, 245, compare WeSkizzen iii.175; 'Fäller,' destroying foes, StaG.i.429 (dubiously). "

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3068.htm

YHVH does not mean "I am what I am". It means "he causes to become" because יַהְוֶה is in the causative form. God is the Cause of all things. This article explains in greater detail why this is God's name:

http://www.theopedia.com/yahweh

Imagine that you have absolute knowledge of the Law of Physics. You place domino's in a very complex configuration, so that the final domino will hit a button that stops an apocalyptic nuclear attack. If one domino does not fall as you planned, the entire world is blown to smithereens. This happens to man often.

God does have absolute knowledge of the Laws of Physics. He knows all things, and He told us the end result. As lesliedellow says, this implies something that the church does not like. This implication is True, and it is the only truth that could come from the only true God, because He is Love. Therefore, literally believe in His name, and the name of His son, Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ).

Yeshua means "YHVH saves", which actually means "He causes to become safe". And He will my friend, because God is perfect. I just found this all very interesting and wanted to share it with you.

Thank you and God bless you.

 

[anonymouswho]

The way I see it, God has a plan for all of us and has set up a long list of blessing to enrich our lives if we are receptive of him. He speaks through many outlets, sometimes people he's put in our path or incidents to jolt us back to what's important. The one way i think he talks to us is through our own conscience.

The Path one might be the one he hopes we will choose and he will send us twinges to give us a second thought about what direction we will take, but many time we want something so much that we ignore them. I that case God doesn't turn his back on us, but I can visualize him taking a seat and grabbing the popcorn.

Hello friend and thanks for the reply. I have one issue with what you have written, the implication of the word "hope" to describe God's foreknowledge. Human's hope, wish, cross their fingers, and doubt. God is absolutely, 1,000,000,000% sure that whatever He plans, purposes, wants, wills, desires, or whatever other word we might include, it will surely come to pass. He is willing, He is able, and He will do it. Look at the story of Joseph and his brothers. I will try to post something about it tomorrow, but there's one thing in particular I really want you to think about:

"And Joseph dwelt in Egypt, he, and his father's house: and Joseph lived an hundred and ten years." Genesis 50:22

If all the events which happened to Joseph (and we will go over them) did not happen, there would have been no reason for him to dwell and be buried in Egypt. Read that chapter to the end, and then turn the page in your bible. Besides saving people from the famine, what would have happened if Joseph didn't go to Egypt?

Thank you friend and God bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

I have a choice between A or B.

And God knows what choice you will make, before you do.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10b Declaring the end from the beginning,

 

[[serious]]

The problem with free will is that it goes beyond just God being an omniscient observer. He is also alleged to be the omnipotent creator. Therefore, if your definition of God includes those attributes, then God necessarily made all choices for everyone, the moment he chose to create this universe.

In the most extreme interpretations, yes. However, this would not be an issue if God were omniscient of present and past events but was as subject as anyone to the nondeterminate nature of the future. Should natural forces be truly random at their lowest level as they appear to be due to the uncertainty principle, God would not have strict responsibility for all events.

I would agree that the current trendy view of God as existing outside of time and thus seeing all of time as a fixed event would not be compatible with free will, and would thus invalidate the concepts of right and wrong as all events and decisions would likewise be fixed.

 

[anonymouswho]

1) if you believe god's omniscience is not a factor, can you choose something he's not expecting (which would release dependence upon omniscience)?

2) adam & eve made choices already known (made) and only made from the available options. all options provided by the omniscient god who planned that they would make such choices. can you point to the free will in that scenario? In other words, if god planned everything that would ever happen (which is what many theists claim), he not only planned what choice they'd make, he provided the conditions and materials needed to 'force' them into that choice.

3) I believe that in the case of an Omni-everything god, we have merely the appearance of free will. Unless anyone is prepared to demonstrate how an omniscient, who planned everything that would ever happen, can be surprised.

Hello my friend and thank you for joining us. This is one of my favorite topics, because I believe it is very important for us to understand that our God is not like the other gods; weak, ignorant, nonexistent nonsense. He is the only true God, and there is none like him! I had never even heard of determinism or anything related until I read about the Sovereignty of God. I was amazed to find that the Scriptures are not True "just because everyone said they are", but because they are absolutely the most rational words ever written.

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Ecclesiastes 1:2

What "religion" would ever tell their members that their lives are individually meaningless? The Scriptures tell us the truth, and then they tell us why. And when we learn why, what else can we do but praise the Most High?

Thank you friend and God bless you.