Freewill?

[anonymouswho]

In the most extreme interpretations, yes. However, this would not be an issue if God were omniscient of present and past events but was as subject as anyone to the nondeterminate nature of the future. Should natural forces be truly random at their lowest level as they appear to be due to the uncertainty principle, God would not have strict responsibility for all events.

I would agree that the current trendy view of God as existing outside of time and thus seeing all of time as a fixed event would not be compatible with free will, and would thus invalidate the concepts of right and wrong as all events and decisions would likewise be fixed.

Hello friend and thank you for joining us. I was hoping someone would bring up the Uncertainty Principle, because I have found it to be the excuse for almost any nonsense one wishes to portray. I don't have time to discuss this in length tonight, but I will write you back tomorrow.

I did want to say that I do not believe God is "outside of time", because it is nonsensical. I do believe that He is the Cause of all things, and He has knowledge of all things. Therefore, whatever the Determiner has determined, it is sure to pass. I will elaborate tomorrow, but I have to lay down now. Thank you friend and God bless.

 

[katerinah1947]

That which is implied by the divine attributes of omnipotence and omniscience seems to me clear. What is more, the Bible seems to be of the same opinion - i.e. that God preordains all things. However, there are many people in both Protestantism and Catholicism who don't like what seems to be implied, so it has been an ongoing debate at least since the time of Augustine.

Hi,

I see.

Once, God dealt with me in an unexpected way, which today I know by a method, that He indeed did not know, what my response would be.

Sure, that is probably self limiting. Meaning He chose not to know.

I cannot imagine, really why, but indeed, when the question came to me, He did not know what my answer would be, and neither did I.

On the third day, on the final day, that I would have a chance to answer that question, I even surprised myself.

The Catholic Church, through a spiritual director has affirmed all of this, as being so.

Maybe, on all things God asks questions of us. Maybe no one but theorizes and Philosophizes on the unknowns.

Saint Augustine, for example is said to have never met God. Jung, for certain never did. Faustina and others have. The difference is in their words. Mother Theresa is said to have met God in some way and she has all the characteristics of that.

God, did not know what my answer would be. He did not. And, even though I have dealt with every member of The Trinity, and Mary, it was God the Father.

It was He that came on that day. On that day, unlike before, He spoke no personal words. Instead, after awhile, someone else appeared. He delivered the question, even though that detail is not needed, except for accuracy.

As upset as I was by that other one, when I finally became calm and listened, because he should not be talking, after he finished, I was beyond any sane or calm thoughts.

He, left eventually and way before I wanted Him to. I was hurt. I did not want Him to go away. He leaves. He has said to me: "I would not have asked you the question if you were not up to it." What? Up to what? He left. I felt Him. I saw Him leave.

I was stuck with, Up to what? What? I was clueless.

Day two, same time same place. This repeats. The words are the same. My reaction is the same. He leaves. Even those words are the same that are said to me. I am still clueless. Up to what? Humility? What?

Day three comes. Never will I be asked this question again. The time approaches. I am ready. He comes. I AM COMPLETELY LOST AGAIN. Whatever I was going to say was lost and gone.

Gabriel, who I didn't know yet starts. As he is talking, the word no is heard in my head.

No?

I don't know what I am going to say. Just a few more words. this will be over, and I don't know what I am going to say.

Gabriel: ....me?YES!

I said YES! That surprised me. I had no idea that I would say that. I had no idea I would practically trounce on his words.

There was no delay between his last word to me, from God The Father, and my rather loud and firm YES!

And, my fate, was fixed for......

Later, I found out much, and that YES! makes sense. I was totally frightened and scared. Not of God The Father, but of the choice I had made.

I trusted in Him though. Finally it clicked, if I wanted this, I could have this. It would work out somehow.

"I would not have asked you if you were not up to it" Maybe that was what it meant. I am still not certain.

What finally swayed me, is I knew so much about Him by then. One thing I knew is that I could Trust Him, as that had been proven to me already, over the years or months.

I asked His Son many times: "Was this planned? " The answer is No. The courtship was. The falling in love was not.

I did fall in love with God The Father. I never let on. He also never let on.

I would rather have died than ever let on. My feelings were buried deep.

A month and a half, before I will be asked. Jesus and I are in a conversation, is how deeply I buried any thoughts. I asked Jesus to please allow me to cease to exist, after I died on this earth.

Jesus, is pleased with me telling Him this. He actually knew, that I did not want eternal life in any form, for three and a half years. I don't know why or how.

I just know how He felt, and that told me that He knew for all those years. He was glad, I finally told Him.

A month and a half later, with a set life till I died, blissfully awaiting my cessation, but hopefully being allowed my present life, far off at 2:30 PM, something is approaching me from afar. I feel it. I am afraid. It gets a little closer. It is God The Father.

Instantly I am no longer afraid. He comes. The rest you know almost.

Never, in all the years I have worked with Him, has He ever come to me like this. He is in all his colors. He is Regal.

I am in my everyday clothes. He stops eventually. He is above a thinner layer of clouds. All His colors show through. Two thirds of the thick layer of the clouds are rolled up. They are piled up on the edges, from the underside.

Sounds all stopped, as He came closer. I can FEEL HIM. There is no other presence anywhere.

Time passes. I stare.

Someone pops up in the burm on the left..........

The rest you know.

I would be a raving lunatic, a liar, or a heretic, only each one of those things have been checked and corroborated.

As much as that sounds totally ridiculous, does that sound like He knew what I was going to say?

I didn't know, and I was given the choice. My choice was yes or no for eternity, and I could not answer Him, at first because...........

Well, ask any female. It's all about feelings. I had to say no, if I did not have the correct feelings for Him.

Otherwise, it would not be right. I would ruin His life, and I would ruin mine also, in misery, over ruining His life, or indeed any man who might ever ask me.

If, a woman cannot love a man, the way a wife needs to, she has to say no.

That is what took me so long to answer. I had to know.

I still took a slight risk.

I did want to marry him, not Him. I did not know it. I knew I could trust him by then. I said YES! , trusting in him, that this would all work out somehow. A human. Married to God The Father, but him to me.

We have been together since the fall of 2007.

I hope you do not find this too weird. It is my reality.

LOVE,

 

[46AND2]

In the most extreme interpretations, yes. However, this would not be an issue if God were omniscient of present and past events but was as subject as anyone to the nondeterminate nature of the future. Should natural forces be truly random at their lowest level as they appear to be due to the uncertainty principle, God would not have strict responsibility for all events.

This, then, would render prophecy irrelevant at best, impossible at worst.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Hello friend and thanks for the reply. I have one issue with what you have written, the implication of the word "hope" to describe God's foreknowledge. Human's hope, wish, cross their fingers, and doubt. God is absolutely, 1,000,000,000% sure that whatever He plans, purposes, wants, wills, desires, or whatever other word we might include, it will surely come to pass. He is willing, He is able, and He will do it. Look at the story of Joseph and his brothers. I will try to post something about it tomorrow, but there's one thing in particular I really want you to think about:

"And Joseph dwelt in Egypt, he, and his father's house: and Joseph lived an hundred and ten years." Genesis 50:22

If all the events which happened to Joseph (and we will go over them) did not happen, there would have been no reason for him to dwell and be buried in Egypt. Read that chapter to the end, and then turn the page in your bible. Besides saving people from the famine, what would have happened if Joseph didn't go to Egypt?

Thank you friend and God bless.

I think you completely misunderstood the way i used hope in that response.

 

[timewerx]

I did want to say that I do not believe gduty is "outside of time", because it is nonsensical. I do believe that He is the Cause of all things, and He has knowledge of all things. Therefore, whatever the Determiner has determined, it is sure to pass. I will elaborate tomorrow, but I have to lay down now. Thank you friend and gduty bless.

At certain "levels of reality", our notion of time becomes meaningless and becomes completely disconnected between this reality and "that" level of reality.

It's like a video or song that is stored in your computer's memory.

Although they progress in real time if played, every sequence of the video or song from the beginning to the end exists simultaneously in the computer's memory at the same time.

It can be said the computer file exists in "virtual time" which we can manipulate while we exist in "real time" which is completely unaffected by the computer's virtual time. Therefore, it can be said we are outside of the computer's "virtual time".

In much the same way, God exists outside of what we call "our time" dimension because of the fact our reality's past, present, and future can exist at the same time.

 

[xpower]

There's always molinism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

 

[lesliedellow]

I would agree that the current trendy view of God as existing outside of time and thus seeing all of time as a fixed event....

What makes that the "trendy" view? It has been the accepted view for most of the last 2,000 years. The trendy view is probably that of open theists who, in my opinion, come close to heresy. They want to deprive God of his omniscience, because they can see the obvious implications it has for human autonomy. If that view became the accepted one, the near collapse of Christian theology would follow shortly afterwards.

 

[quatona]

On the face of it, an event either has a cause, or it is random. Neither option seems overly friendly to the notion of free will.

I am not sure that "random" and "uncaused" are the same concepts. That a result is (resp. appears to be) random doesn´t mean it isn´t produced through cause and effect chains.

 

[quatona]

Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

We are presupposing the existence of God for discussing "freewill" on a logical basis?

 

[[serious]]

This, then, would render prophecy irrelevant at best, impossible at worst.

Not necessarily. If God was still omnipotent, or even sufficiently powerful, he could reasonably steer events towards any given proximal result.

 

[[serious]]

What makes that the "trendy" view? It has been the accepted view for most of the last 2,000 years. The trendy view is probably that of open theists who, in my opinion, come close to heresy. They want to deprive God of his omniscience, because they can see the obvious implications it has for human autonomy. If that view became the accepted one, the near collapse of Christian theology would follow shortly afterwards.

Out of curiosity, do you have any source for someone proposing God is "outside time" earlier than say, 100 years ago? I'm certainly willing to revisit my assumptions on the origin of the concept if you do.

 

[stevevw]

There is a saying in AA that an alcoholic has a self will that runs riot. So they want to control everything so that they can manipulate everything towards what they want. That could mean avoiding the responsibilities of their life, avoiding situations that will force them to face up to themselves, maneuvering people and circumstances to get their own way. One of the key points to recovery is to admit that you cant do it on your own or through your own will power and that you need help. So you are surrendering your will to others and becoming humble enough to allow someone or something else to help you sort out your life. Many people choose to submit to a higher power often being God. So its like Gods will be done rather than their own.

The paradox is they have to give in to win. They have to let go of controlling their lives to gain some control of their lives. But by making this choice allows them to make many other choices in their lives. So an alcoholic is a typical example of someone who has lost the choice or free will to stop drinking. But in recovery they can gain the opportunity to be able to make choices and freely choose to stop drinking and recover. They will have to make many choices when they may feel like picking up a drink. Often it is the choices before picking up the drink that do the damage. So it may mean making good choices well before a drink is involved. It may mean choosing to ring a friend when feeling tempted or stressed. To me these are free choices because if anything they are acting against the lure to drink and freely choosing not to.

 

[anonymouswho]

What finally swayed me, is I knew so much about Him by then. One thing I knew is that I could Trust Him, as that had been proven to me already, over the years or months.

Hello friend. I believe your story, and I believe this is reality to you. Although my experience has not been like yours, God has also revealed Himself to me.

After He revealed Himself, I knew He was True. As you said, what finally "swayed" (caused) me to accept Him, was that I knew I could trust Him. This was likewise something He had been revealing to me over several years and months (actually, my whole life). It was because I knew I could trust Him, that ultimately caused me to love Him. I never let on, but He definitely let on. And finally, after many years, I knew that I love Him also.

This love was from Him. I did not make a random, ultimate decision to love God. He won me over. To go with your marriage analogy, would you marry a man that just showed up one day and ask you "marry me or I will torture you forever"? Of course not. God showed His love to us first, and we couldn't resist His charm.

This was several years ago. I knew that the God I loved was the God of Scripture, but I didn't necessarily "know" Him. It was like a young puppy love in which I wanted to learn everything about Him, but lacked in knowledge about who He really is. However, unlike a human relationship (where I must accept the other despite their faults that I learn about over a lifetime), I found that God has absolutely none. He is perfect.

Learning about God is like learning about a potential spouse. You want to know everything about them. However, the more questions you ask them (over the span of several years), the more you learn of their faults. All humans have faults. But when we ask God questions, He tells us the truth everytime.

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matthew 7:7

Yeshua does not tell us that as soon as we believe, God will just pour His knowledge on us. He says we must "ask" and we must "seek". And when we sincerely do this, when we trust God and nobody else, He will always answer.

Thank you friend and God bless you.

 

[anonymouswho]

I think you completely misunderstood the way i used hope in that response

Hello friend. I'm sorry if I misunderstand, but I don't know any other way to define hope. Words are very important to me. One single word can change the entire course of a conversation. I live next to a Baptist church, and the pastor gave me a book that teaches Greek to try and convince me that aionios means eternal. The book is called The Life Beyond by Ray Summers, and on page 196, he says:

"Man has made his own choice. God has done all that he could, consistent with his righteous character, to win man from rebellion and save him from that awful destiny"

That is all I needed to read. To say God has done all that he could, and yet our All Powerful God has still failed to achieve what He desires, is blasphemy. By this one statement, the author can now dish out whatever nonsense he wishes to. A false conclusion based on a false premises.

I meant no disrespect. I hope you understand why I must deny that God "hopes" for anything. If I was to say God "hopes", then I have rendered the word "hope" as ineffective. If God hopes, God gets, everytime, with absolutely no exceptions.

Thank you friend and God bless you.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

That is all I needed to read. To say God has done all that he could, and yet our All Powerful God has still failed to achieve what He desires, is blasphemy.

Thank you friend and God bless you.

No it is not blaspheme. That's absolutely ridiculous. God wants the best for us and sets us up to be victors, if we believe in him and if we follow the path he sets. If we don't listen to him or fail to follow the path he sets than we walk without his guidance. I heard that one time God told Moses to strike a rock with his staff and he would get water out of it, but the second time God told him to speak to the rock. He didn't listen to God and went ahead and struck the rock with his staff as he did the first time. Did he get water, no because he didn't follow God's instructions. He didn't get any water out of it until he followed Gods instruction.

If he hadn't have spoken to the rock, he would have never gotten water from it and God would never have completed his intent to give the Israelite's water. This is what free will is about. If we don't work with God God won't work with us on an individual basis.

 

[anonymouswho]

At certain "levels of reality", our notion of time becomes meaningless and becomes completely disconnected between this reality and "that" level of reality.

It's like a video or song that is stored in your computer's memory.

Although they progress in real time if played, every sequence of the video or song from the beginning to the end exists simultaneously in the computer's memory at the same time.

It can be said the computer file exists in "virtual time" which we can manipulate while we exist in "real time" which is completely unaffected by the computer's virtual time. Therefore, it can be said we are outside of the computer's "virtual time".

In much the same way, God exists outside of what we call "our time" dimension because of the fact our reality's past, present, and future can exist at the same time.

Yes! I knew that a conversation with you would give me an opportunity to talk about nerdy science stuff. I love Science, but I believe the Scriptures. The Scriptures have shown me that the Science of this day is utter nonsense. I'm not talking about the whole "Creationist" issue. I'm talking about explicit contradictions in Science that cannot be ignored.

I believe in Reality. Virtual reality is interesting, but I would not base Reality on something that does not actually exist. The reason it is called "virtual" is because it's not real. We, however, live in Reality.

It is like basing our Reality on Negative Numbers. Negative Numbers do not physically exist. That is why the square root of a Negative Number is "imaginary". It doesn't actually exist, because the foundational concept of Negative Numbers do not exist.

Do you have any interest in Quantum Mechanics, Particle-Wave Duality, and the Uncertainty Principle? I would love to discuss these things with you. That is why I posted this in the Science forum. I think we can have some interesting conversations.

Thank you my friend and God bless.

 

[lesliedellow]

Out of curiosity, do you have any source for someone proposing God is "outside time" earlier than say, 100 years ago? I'm certainly willing to revisit my assumptions on the origin of the concept if you do.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/eternity/#EteVie

 

[anonymouswho]

No it is not blaspheme. That's absolutely ridiculous. God wants the best for us and sets us up to be victors, if we believe in him and if we follow the path he sets. If we don't listen to him or fail to follow the path he sets than we walk without his guidance. I heard that one time God told Moses to strike a rock with his staff and he would get water out of it, but the second time God told him to speak to the rock. He didn't listen to God and went ahead and struck the rock with his staff as he did the first time. Did he get water, no because he didn't follow God's instructions. He didn't get any water out of it until he followed Gods instruction.

If he hadn't have spoken to the rock, he would have never gotten water from it and God would never have completed his intent to give the Israelite's water. This is what free will is about. If we don't work with God God won't work with us on an individual basis.

I'm sorry if I've offended you. I hope you know that I was not saying that you spoke blasphemy. I was saying that the Greek "scholar" (the modern day scribe), who should know better, spoke blasphemy when he said that God would fail. You used the word "hope", because you understand it to mean something other than "crossing His fingers". I don't, but I do understand why you feel this way. However, the scholar said that God has done "all that he could". He is saying that the God that can do all things, has done all that He could, and failed. I do not believe you have said this.

Yes, God told Moses to speak to the rock, and Moses disobeyed. However, the Israelites did receive the water:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. Numbers 20:7

Moses disobeyed, and it was this particular event that kept him out of the land that God promised. This is important, because it teaches us something. Moses (the old covenant-not the Law) could not enter the Promised Land because he did not believe. Instead, Joshua (Yeshua in Hebrew) brought the children into the Promised Land. Do you see this amazing prophecy? Yeshua our Messiah has brought us into the Promised Land! This was all I'm accordance with God's plan.

I really am sorry for the blasphemy comment. I never mean to offend anyone. Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[AlexDTX]

Hey Alex, thank you for replying. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to copy something that I wrote on a different forum because it's pretty long. It's about how I've come to interpret Genesis, because I cannot believe that God's will was thwarted right from the very beginning.

"And God said, Let us make (H6213 עָשָׂה asah: accomplish) man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God tells us right in the first chapter what His purpose is for mankind. He is making us in His Image, after His Likeness. This required something that Adam and Eve did not possess when He made them: the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I believe this next verse is where the true confusion lies:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Heb. dying thou die)." Genesis 2:16-17

Here, we see that God tells Adam he may eat of every tree in the Garden. Then God warns man that when (because it was gonna happen) He eats of the Tree of Knowledge, he will die.

The problem with the translation is the word "shalt" in "thou shalt not eat of it". The word shalt is not in the original Hebrew. The original says:

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ (of the tree) הַדַּ֙עַת֙ (of the knowledge) ט֣וֹב (of good) וָרָ֔ע (and evil) לֹ֥א (not) תֹאכַ֖ל (eat) תֹאכַ֖ל (of)

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-17.htm

God did not "command" them regarding whether they could eat of the Tree, He warned them of the consequences when they did eat. With this in mind, let's see if we can make sense of this all.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

So now we are introduced to the Serpent, whom God had made more subtile than any other beast. Right from the beginning he lies to to Eve. God never said they may "not" eat of every tree, He said they "may" eat of every tree. This confuses Eve, but she responds with what God had told her:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye [shall] not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2-3

Then the Serpent lies again, but deceives Eve by mixing his lie with truth:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as (like) gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

Eve did not know any better when she ate the Fruit. She had no knowledge of either Good or Evil. How could she have made a rational decision? This was all in perfect alignment of God's original and only plan. God verifies that everything is going according to His plan next:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as (like) one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

You see my friend, this was not a huge mishap on God's part by which He had to resort to plan B. There is no plan B.

God desired to make man in His Image, and this required the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God Himself planted the Tree and made the Serpent to tempt Adam and Eve. Everything went perfectly.

And now we see Yeshua, the man that is the express Image of God.

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" Hebrews 1:3

I hope this all makes sense to you. Thank you friend and God bless.

I don't see this as thwarting God's will. What was God's will? It seems to me his will was for them to freely choose and he was ready for either choice.

 

[AlexDTX]

1) if you believe god's omniscience is not a factor, can you choose something he's not expecting (which would release dependence upon omniscience)?

2) adam & eve made choices already known (made) and only made from the available options. all options provided by the omniscient god who planned that they would make such choices. can you point to the free will in that scenario? In other words, if god planned everything that would ever happen (which is what many theists claim), he not only planned what choice they'd make, he provided the conditions and materials needed to 'force' them into that choice.

3) I believe that in the case of an Omni-everything god, we have merely the appearance of free will. Unless anyone is prepared to demonstrate how an omniscient, who planned everything that would ever happen, can be surprised.

It sounds like you view the term "free will" in the same way as my Calvinist friend who said there is no free will, only will. How are you defining "free will"? As I said earlier, I don't see a difference in meaning. But, as I also said earlier, I do not pretend to know the answer, I am only speculating with the rest of the forum, therefore I will not argue the point. I can not defend that which I do not understand myself, even though I believe it to be true. Our conscious understanding is not the only understanding the exists. We also understand in the heart. If my heart says it true and my conscious mind can not understand why, that does not mean my heart is wrong. Secular humanism has influenced believers as much as the pagan world. Not everything needs to be proven by rational thought.