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Freewill?

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by anonymouswho, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. anonymouswho

    anonymouswho Active Member

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    I agree, although we must be careful with this. Deeper interpretations are fine, as long as they don't contradict other Scripture. If we find a contradiction, then we know that our own deeper interpretation is incorrect. Therefore there is either no deeper meaning, or we have not yet figured out the deeper meaning.

    Such as the story of Moses. I believe the author intended to show us how Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land because of disbelief.

    "And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them." Numbers 20:12

    What the author didn't intend is that Joshua (Hebrew: Yeshua), who did lead the Israelites into the Promised Land, would be a shadow of Yeshua the Messiah. I think the author was just recording what he needed to record at the time, but God meant it for something greater. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't found anything that contradicts this yet.

    Nice name. The KJV is my favorite bible to use also.

    Thank you friend and God bless.
     
  2. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    You too! :)
     
  3. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Your wife did the right thing. There's a pretty good reason why prophets tend to be eccentric and mad.



    Indeed, but how about reincarnation? Rebirth?

    Great thing to bring up.

    Based on my actual experiences, your past self that you saved from the poison will do exactly the same thing you did at the exact time you traveled back to the past.

    He will be "forced" by fate beyond his conscious control to do the same act that you did with 100% accuracy.

    If you can time travel, you will see for yourself in the most empowering way that you are absolutely not in control. There are forces out there that keep things in check that we are helpless in fighting against. Although those forces permit time travel, what you can do is very limited and you will see for yourself that you have strings and someone else is controlling you.....

    There is the possibility of alternate outcomes like the Schrodinger Cat hypothesis but the alternate outcomes would never exist in the first place. They were only part of the calculations at best but never manifested in the final outcome.





    In this case, God already knew that Jonah would disobey, be swallowed by a fish but eventually comply.

    But God simply cannot tell this to Jonah.

    If you have watched the film, "Terminator Genisys" the latest franchise in the Terminator series, they brought up some factual points. John Connor in the film while serving both as a prophet and a soldier, he did not tell reveal everything, "not without changing everything" as he said in the film.

    However, the film went very wrong about the notion that the "future is not set". The future is already set. And that "there is no fate than that which we make". We don't make fate, but fate makes us do things in its bidding.

    If a real AI does come out in the future, and decides to wipe out mankind, there's absolutely no way we can stop it, even if we have a time machine! ;)





    Maybe, I wasn't familiar with it until you mentioned it.


    I have also yet to see punishment actually change a person for good.

    You can start looking for Einstein's philosophical beliefs late in his life, his religious beliefs as well, and his opinion of God.


    I have actually succeeded in sending messages a few times in the past. As I've said earlier, if you received a message from yourself from the future, you will be compelled by "forces" to do the same act at the same point in time in the future - which is to send the same exact messages to your past self - even if the future was dramatically changed by it.

    It changed my circumstances in a huge way, than if I had not send the messages back. And even if my circumstances had already changed, I still had to send the same messages back to ensure the "alteration" is set permanently. Just like in the film "Terminator", they still have to travel to the past even if John Connor is apparently alive leading the resistance to set their victory permanently.

    I might be able to devise a process to dramatically improve the process which messages are sent, even be able to accurately pinpoint which time I must send the messages back. Still in the trial and error stage. Need to be extremely careful. The threat of malevolent spirits are also real.





    It's in our brain, I think. The reality of Quantum Mechanics which describe our Universe is also manifested in how our mind works in processing all kinds of information, including virtual/extrapolated information.

    This is quite fun indeed, you must be the first who became interested in my unique experiences, God bless to you too!
     
  4. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    no i had to google it ..haha .
    the i did not have to reply but i did so was i compelled to do so or was it my free will to do so .. it was both ;)
     
  5. anonymouswho

    anonymouswho Active Member

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    I understood, and that's pretty good. You were trying to prove that this contradiction could indeed be true, am I correct?
     
  6. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A dream is not a prophecy just because it involves the future. Often is is more of a warning of what is going to happen if you do not do something about it.
     
  7. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Can you dream the impossible dream?

    Can you fight the unbeatable foe?
     
  8. anonymouswho

    anonymouswho Active Member

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    As of right now, I do not believe in Reincarnation. I would not outright deny it though. I do believe in rebirth, but only after we are born of God, and not of man. I believe Yeshua is the son of Joseph, and He later became the son of God at his immersion. And now we can all become the children of God (and we will). I can see how reincarnation can be reconciled with this, but I'll have to study it more.

    I have no problem with this if I am understanding correctly. This seems to be the same thing I was saying, that you can see the past, but you have no control over it. Just as you can see the future, but you cannot change the ultimate reality of it. Do you believe in multi-verses? I do not. I believe this is the only universe and the only reality. There are things we cannot see, but they are not outside of the realm of reality, otherwise, they wouldn't be real.

    I have not watched this film yet, but I will check it out. It seems I do agree with it's overall premise. Note that I do not actually believe what I'm about to say because I believe Revelation is symbolic, but speaking of AI, and just for nerdy fun, have you ever considered that the "image" of the beast is Artificial Intellegence?

    "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Revelation 12:15

    Also in Daniel:

    "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns." Daniel 7:7

    You should look it up. It's pretty neat. Einstein called it "Spooky Action at a Distance". It is because of entanglement that some scientist do actually believe they can send "faster than light messages". This would enable them to send a message into the past. However, under the Pilot-Wave interpretation, this is not possible. The Pilot-Wave takes away all the cool science fiction that has infiltrated science, but it allows us to exist in a rational world, which I find much more important.

    I've read a lot about Einstein's opinion of God, but I haven't read about his prophecies. From what I understand, he believed in an impersonal god that didn't concern itself with human affairs. I feel like if somebody would have shown Einstein who YHVH really is, he would have understood.

    Punishment does nothing, because it is for the benefit of the one punishing. Chastisement teaches us righteousness.

    I agree that the threat is real. This is why I believe if you wish to hone your gift as a prophet, you must be sure you are not decieved. Here is a very good passage that I wish for everyone to consider:

    "For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
    And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
    And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Ezekiel 14:7

    I just cannot understand how, if you at some point drank poison, and then warned yourself in the past, you're past self (when they reach the future poison incident) would have any reason to go back to the past to warn yourself again. They avoided the situation, so what is the point of warning?

    It's like, there is one universe in which we do drink the poison (because we were not warned), go back and warn ourselves, and then return to die. There's another universe where we receive the warning and avoid the situation, so that we don't die. Since we don't drink the poison, we have no reason to go back and warn ourselves again. If we decide to warn ourselves anyways, then this would happen over and over again forever. So, when did we actually drink the poison?

    Yes of course! Trillions and trillions of tiny particles zipping through the universe, each one brought into order by the hand of God. One particle that is bouncing off of a galaxy billions of light years away is doing exactly what it needs to do in order that all of this should hold together. God did all of this for you, because you are the son of Adam. The entire universe was made for us!

    I'm glad you enjoy discussing this with me. I hope you do not take offense to anything I say. I know I've been critical towards your gift, but it's not because I don't believe you. You may have something very important to tell the world one day, but we have to make sure this gift is of God.

    God bless you my good friend.
     
  9. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As long as we fight for a Heavenly cause we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us.
     
  10. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    I hope you understand what I was saying.

    Think: Andy Williams ;)
     
  11. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am aware of Man of La Mancha

    This is my quest, to follow that star,
    No matter how hopeless, no matter how far
    To fight for the right without question or cause
    To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause
     
  12. anonymouswho

    anonymouswho Active Member

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    Hello Joshua. I'm not sure if you read all of what I wrote to timewerx, but I do not believe a dream is a warning of what "is going to happen", because if it can be changed, then it was never going to happen.

    Let's say timewerx has a dream that some people will be in a car wreck if they don't repent. If they listen, there will be no car wreck, because there was never supposed to be a car wreck. Everything since the beginning led to timewerx giving the warning, and the people listening.

    If they don't repent, and they die in the car wreck, then this situation is supposed to happen. Everything since the beginning led to timewerx giving the warning, and the people not listening.

    Whichever happens, God knows and he ordained it from the beginning.

    Timewerx, however, does not know what will happen, so he warns them anyways. The people also don't know what will happen, so they either listen, or they dont. Again, whichever happens, God knew and ordained for it to happen.

    So, if it does happen, the vision is of the future, which is confirmed when it happens. The people are killed because they did not repent.

    If it doesn't happen, the vision was simply a vision of what "should happen given the current circumstances". The people "should" get in the wreck, given their current state of unrepentance. Therefore, God sent timewerx to tell the people what "should" happen, and not the actual future.

    The actual future is set. Whatever happens is supposed to happen, and nothing can change it; especially petty mankind, which is a blade of grass that quickly whithers.

    I can see how this might be confusing, so let me try one more example.

    Let's say God promises Abraham that he will bless many nations through his son Issac. One day, God tells Abraham to sacrifice Issac. Abraham obeys and takes Issac on a mountain to sacrifice him. A messenger comes out and says "Stop, don't do it", and Abraham listens to the messenger so that Issac lives.

    Several years later, Abraham gets to thinking. He decides that he should have sacrificed Issac anyways, so before Issac has any children, Abraham (in super freewill mode) kills Issac. Does God stop Abraham from killing Issac? Because if He does, He has interfered with Abraham's freewill. Does He let Abraham kill Issac? Because if He does, then God's promise will not be fulfilled.

    I hope this makes sense to you and I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you my friend.
     
  13. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The dream then is really a call to repentance. A warning of what will happen if you do not repent.
     
  14. anonymouswho

    anonymouswho Active Member

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    Yes, the warning is a call to repentance. However, they are only going to answer the call if God chose them to.

    "For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 7:14

    So we are left with two options:

    A) If it does happen, then God ordained for it to happen. The people were never going to answer the call because they were not chosen. God knew this, and it happened exactly as He ordained.

    B) If it doesn't happen, then God ordained for it not to happen. Therefore, it was never a warning of what "will" happen to begin with. It was a vision of what "should happen given the current state of their unrepentance". God chose those people to answer the call, and they answered it because God had already ordained them to.

    Also, I was wondering what you thought about the Abraham scenario.

    I'm curious my friend, why is it that freewill is so important to you? What I mean is, do you just desire to believe you're free? Is there something about God's character that you believe contradicts this? Or is it just hell?

    Thank you and God bless.
     
  15. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nothing makes sense apart from free will. I tend more toward the teaching of John Wesley and not so much toward Calvin.
     
  16. anonymouswho

    anonymouswho Active Member

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    I don't understand. I haven't had anyone provide an explanation for my original post (except for those that thought I believed it to be true), so how can it be that anything makes sense with freewill? What is your biggest problem with this? Perhaps if we can make sense of that, we can make sense of everything.

    I'm not a Calvinist, nor have I ever cared to read a word from the man. I'll believe anything before I ever believe that the only true God has predetermined billions of people for eternal torture. That is nonsense.

    God bless you friend.
     
  17. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your first post is not logical. You say God knows your going to do something and then you do something else. That does not make any sense.
     
  18. anonymouswho

    anonymouswho Active Member

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    My friend, I know that it's not logical. That is the point. God knows I will choose (A). If I freely choose (B), then God was wrong. It is impossible that God can be wrong. So it is also impossible that I can choose (B).

    What I'm asking for is an explanation of how I can possibly freely choose (B), since God knows I will choose (A). If (A) is the only thing I can possibly choose (otherwise God would be wrong), then how is it logical that I have the free will to choose otherwise?

    If there is no logical way that I can choose (B), then free will is illogical.

    God bless you friend.
     
  19. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For us life is like a game of chess. There are different moves we can make and we try to find the best move to give us the best future. God if He so chooses can actually look to see what the future is. He is outside of time so past, present and the future are all open for Him. So what about a doctor or a surgeon. We hope that they make all the right choices and all the right decisions. They operate as a group for the most part so they agree with each other. Still some people seem to make good choices and some people repeatedly seem to make bad choices. A drug addict or alcoholic may quit a hundred times and still end up going back to their addiction when the going gets a bit difficult for them. God is trying to fix the problem with humans but He Himself is not a part of the problem, He is a part of the cure.

    Many times I wish God would make a choice or a decision for me. But He leaves it up to me to make my own choice and my own decision and I have to deal with the results and in some cases the consequences of the choices I make in life.
     
  20. anonymouswho

    anonymouswho Active Member

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    I agree that life is like a game of chess. However, we are not the ones playing. We are the pawns. God is the One playing, and He knows that He will win. When He wins, He will gather up all His chess pieces back to Himself. And God does not lose His chess pieces.

    "When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost." John 6:12

    I do not believe God is "outside of time". There are no verses in all of Scripture that say this. God is called the "first" and the "last". First and last denote time.

    A day to God is a thousands years. If God was outside of time, then a day would be eternal. That is what Augustine said, but that is not what the Scriptures say. Time is relative to God, but God is not outside of time.

    Either way, He knows what you'll do before you do it, so how does that give you free will to choose otherwise?

    A doctor is a man. When we put our hope in man, they can surely fail us. When we put our hope in God, it is impossible for Him to fail us, because it is impossible for Him to fail.

    This is correct. However, the people that make bad choices, do they really do so freely?

    Let's say a child is born in Afghanistan, and their entire lives consist of worshipping Allah and following Muhammad. Their parents and their entire country tell them "Do not listen to those pagan Christians! If you do, Allah will torture you forever and ever in Jahannam!". So this child is under the threat of death their entire childhood for accepting anything other than Islam, yet they are supposed to freely choose to serve God and believe in Yeshua?

    On top of this, God knows that they will ultimately choose not to follow Him. If God knows this (and He does), then there is absolutely nothing else this person can do. They will die not choosing God, because God has already ordained it.

    Let's say an immature child of 12 years old is introduced to heroin. The reason he is introduced is because his parents are addicted to heroin. The wicked parents give the immature 12 year old (that has lived with heroin addicts his whole life) some heroin. The child does the heroin and becomes neurologically and biologically dependant on this drug. The child does heroin until he is 23 years old, when he is found dead of an overdose. Was this child free? Should the child, after he passed some sort of "age of accountability", just suddenly choose God and give up his addiction?

    Also, God knows that he will do all of this before he does it, so he could not have done otherwise.

    I'm sorry friend, I can't believe this. God does not try to do anything. Whatever God wants to happen, it is going to happen, and absolutely NOTHING can stop it. Let's try another scenario.

    I know (with 100% certainty) that if John robs a bank, the following situation will happen:

    I know
    that when John runs away, he will accidentally drop the money in front of a children's hospital.

    I also know
    that the hospital will think it's a donation, and use the money to save thousands of children's lives.

    I also know
    that after the children are saved, John will be caught.

    I also know
    that John will have to repay every dime he stole.

    I also know
    that after his prison sentence, John will learn that robbery is wrong, so he will spend the rest of his life reaching out to criminals.

    I also know
    that his outreach will save many people from becoming criminals.

    I also know that after all of this, John will die a happy and righteous man.

    If John doesn't rob that bank, none of this will happen. The children will die; John will continue living a life of sin; the people that John reached out to will eventually become criminals; and John will die from a shootout with the police.

    So I coerce John to rob the bank.

    If I know, with 100% certainty, that all of this will happen, wouldn't it be wrong for me not to coerce John?

    Yes, you do have to deal with the consequences of your choices. This is because your heart is weak, so it desires to do wrong. You do wrong, and God chastises you for it. You then learn that you should not continue to do wrong. If there was no consequence (effect), then you would continue doing wrong.

    God caused you to sin (but God did not commit the sin), and He knows (with 100% certainty) that the consequence of your sin will teach you righteousness. It is the experience of evil that causes you to be humble.

    "YHVH, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear" Psalm 10:17

    Check out this verse that is slaughtered by all English translations:

    "And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (רָ֗ע H7451: evil) travail (Heb: occupation) hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (לַעֲנ֥וֹת H6031: brought low, humbled) therewith." Ecclesiastes 1:13

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/1-13.htm

    Free will is not the answer to the Problem of Evil. God Himself prepares evil:

    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (רָ֑ע: evil): I YHVH do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

    God is the answer. He is the answer to everything. And He will fix everything.

    Thank you and God bless you my friend.
     
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