Five have fallen, one is...........

[In Christ Forever]

You made a point that just stood out to me. You are correct when you say that the beast will astonish many. That's they key in interpretation! Domitian didn't astonish many and they didn't wonder at how great he was, they were offended at him and wanted him dead!

The people in this passage may have been astonished when he came upon them:

reve 9:3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given [authority] to kill them, but to torment them [for] five months. Their torment [was] like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. 7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces [were] like the faces of men.

 

[Justme]

Hi Forum,

I would like to look into this beast thing some more. Somewhere in there is some key information and I want to dig it out.

Rev 20:10
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the devil or Satan, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur where the BEAST already was!! So the beast can not be SATAN? !!Hold on maybe it can, there is a trinity in the bible can there be a two-ity as well for the evil side? Beast of the sea and beast of the earth? What could it all mean or symbolize?

Can there be a physical Satan and the spirit of evil? Well, there can be, but is there?

Rev 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

It makes it clear here that the false prophet and the beast are two different entities, but the TWO beasts are a bit more classified.

Rev 19:19
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

Imagine, if you will, in WWIII there is an army led by a rider on a white horse facing off against this other group who has a guy on their side in a black cape with little horns sticking out of his head! Somehow this quickly loses it's authenticity doesn't it, it seems remote as a possibility. However, the bible says what it says.

Rev 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

All the inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast...well, not really all, just the wicked. Those who are not written in the Book of Life. BUt how does that work? There was some nasty wicked in Matthew 23 that even Jesus called a brood of vipers. How will they SEE this beast or worship this beast? That brood of vipers from Matthew 23 has been pushing daisies in a dirt nap for a quite a while now. How does this work? Yet they will worship the beast as Osama Bin Hidin' must.

Rev 13:3

One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

Fatal wound? Fatal wound healed? Is there something that fits this from scripture? Is it symbolic and must be deciphered from scripture?

Any comments to start to cement this all together into something meaningful? This beast thing seems to be an intregal part of the five have fallen, one is....story.

Justme

 

[A4C]

Justme
Perhaps everything about the beast represents Satan's opposition to God and His creation

 

[Justme]

Hi A4C,

Perhaps everything about the beast represents Satan's opposition to God and His creation

I think you're right. How far do we take it after that? Paul turned Hymeneas over to Satan in the first century.

1 Tim 1:20
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Did Satan have a workshop on center street that Paul could take these guys to, or did Paul simply call up some type of curse? Where is Satan now, we know it is not in heaven? Is it in that underworld pit? Is it nopw only a spiritual 'evil' or yes, was it always a spiritual 'evil' which was displayed and symbolized in two ways in Revelation?

Justme

 

[A4C]

I think you're right. How far do we take it after that?

Well consider God's interaction with man on earth since the beginning and then how He completes that interaction then consider how God's enemy would try to claim authority

 

[In Christ Forever]

Hi A4C,


I think you're right. How far do we take it after that? Paul turned Hymeneas over to Satan in the first century.

1 Tim 1:20
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Did Satan have a workshop on center street that Paul could take these guys to, or did Paul simply call up some type of curse? Where is Satan now, we know it is not in heaven? Is it in that underworld pit? Is it nopw only a spiritual 'evil' or yes, was it always a spiritual 'evil' which was displayed and symbolized in two ways in Revelation?

Justme

Read Deuteronomy 28, blessings and curses. The House of Judah/Levi came under the curses [note Malachi also]. Both beasts represent godless nations. But one of the beast is being destroyed by another godbless beast because they have turned their back on God even though they knew God. This can only be referreing to the corrupt jewish rulers and priests as they did believe in God but worshipped "foreign gods and idols". Satan is called an "accuser". Christ also was an "accuser". God bless.

 

[Justme]

Hi ICF,

I know you are working on this beast is nations thing, but I think the beasts encompass much more than that. I tend to think that somehow the beasts , Satan, just symbolize evil period, somehow in two different manifestations. That could include evil nations as well as evil rulers of those nations plus things right down to greed, hate and things that would be antichrist.

How does this nation idea fit in the once was, now is, will come up out of the abyss to destruction/perdition as you prefer.

I remember Dueteronomy for predicting the killing and cannibalism of peoples own children when God get's even with the people for goofing up the first covenant.. You will notice Ernie made note that that happened at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. I think it is Duet where it is said brother will kill brother etc as well. All that came to pass at the destruction of Jerusalem.

Justme

 

[In Christ Forever]

Hi ICF,

I know you are working on this beast is nations thing, but I think the beasts encompass much more than that. I tend to think that somehow the beasts , Satan, just symbolize evil period, somehow in two different manifestations. That could include evil nations as well as evil rulers of those nations plus things right down to greed, hate and things that would be antichrist.

How does this nation idea fit in the once was, now is, will come up out of the abyss to destruction/perdition as you prefer.

I remember Dueteronomy for predicting the killing and cannibalism of peoples own children when God get's even with the people for goofing up the first covenant.. You will notice Ernie made note that that happened at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. I think it is Duet where it is said brother will kill brother etc as well. All that came to pass at the destruction of Jerusalem.

Justme

We know revelation is symbolic and we must use scripture to help us with it. What I was saying is the 2 beasts are "symbolically" 2 nations and it is just ironic that there are 10 horns on one of them, and 2 horns on the other, exactly equalling the 2 nations of the House of Israel.
And lo and behold, the one with 2 horns turns out to be the House of Judah/Harlot/Jerusalem and I believe that is symbolically representing Levi and Joseph. [dan and ephraim of the north replace these 2 tribes in the land division of ezekiel, but I haven't studied no that too much]
Judah is the first tribe in revelations and I feel that Judah represents both a "false messiah" and True messiah
It just appears to be the NC against the OC, with the OC being destroyed. The 2 horns on the beast of the earth would have to be the devil and false prophet I believe, as all 3 of them symbolize those of apostate Jerusalem.
It just made me understand revelation better, the gentile nation coming against the jewish OC nation. Does that make sense?

Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up; Now they are among the Gentiles Like a vessel in which [is] no pleasure.

Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern scattered tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.

Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

 

[Justme]

HI ICF,

It just made me understand revelation better, the gentile nation coming against the jewish OC nation. Does that make sense?

Well, yes, I guess it does. I think that is what I am saying is that these beasts are many things. It seems to me that they are fitting together quite nicely for you. I'm still looking for something further yet.
Tricky subject maybe! I've never spent much time on these things before.

Justme

 

[In Christ Forever]

How does this nation idea fit in the once was, now is, will come up out of the abyss to destruction/perdition as you prefer.

This is the beast that comes up and kills the 2 witnesses and saints and has to be the roman empire, as they are the ones who actually crucified Jesus and who the jews handed over christians and saints to. One also would have to be Christ or God leading them as stated in chapt 17. Perhaps symbolically the king of babylon, don't know.
I don't know about the 7 heads/kings, but awhile back I viewed them symbolically as the 7 churches, 5 have sinned and fallen, One is Jezebel[Thyatira/doomed for destruction], the other is Christ/saints[Philadelphia] but you may know history better than I do and that is why I don't study Daniel that much as you have to know historical happenings from that time to revelation.
I need to get back to studying again, but my dad has only a few weeks to live because of cancer and have been taking care of him, so I may not be on much though I do read the bible constantly. God bless.

reve 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

reve 17:17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

 

[Justme]

Hi ICF,

I'm just kinda following along here and going thru these things as we post so I haven't done a bunch of searching here. I am more or less jotting down first reactions that come to me as I read.

This is the beast that comes up and kills the 2 witnesses and saints and has to be the roman empire, as they are the ones who actually crucified Jesus and who the jews handed over christians and saints to

The first thing that comes to mind is that if this beast is a nation, a tribee, a group of people, why would this verse not apply?

Rev 11
5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.

Would it have to be some spiritual thing which could stand agaisnt the powers of these two witnesses?

One also would have to be Christ or God leading them as stated in chapt 17.

I would definately agree with that.

I don't know about the 7 heads/kings, but awhile back I viewed them symbolically as the 7 churches, 5 have sinned and fallen, One is Jezebel[Thyatira], the other is Christ/saints[Philadelphia]

That was the exercise of this thread. If there is such a thing as 'end times' showing up at present these five 'kings' that have fallen , one is, would be one of the most obvious 'signs' there would be. No one came up with anything concrete. If this was the 'end times' that fit those verses you and I would both know who 666 was and nobody would have to add it up for us.

Conclusion:

Concerning this verse Rev 17:10
If there is any end times they are at least 50 to 100 years away, which to me is a 'who cares' situation. Knowing that we know how false the end times senario was when it started.

Justme

 

[Ben07]

One sec Justme. maybe I am crazy , or loosing my mind, so in all respect, pls forgive if I am wrong here, as i am not being cynical,, I just think you are talking about something in revalation that I thought there was a lot of common knowledge and or opinion on. so with the risk of me being totally off base.

Here goes I believe the five kings were the five world empires that fell (sry cannot name them all, but like Babalonian, Mead and persions, egyptian, greek,syrian, ) then the one that is at that time was the sixth one and it never fell. that is the roman empire, as I said never fell or should I say never got conquered etc. and the future one is suppose to be the revision of the old roman empire of which there is a lot of thought that it is the modern day european union .. this is also symbolized in one of Daniel's visions as a statue, with like the head of gold etc down to legs of iron which is symbolic of roman empire and feet of iron and clay, which is a rekindling of the roman empire which actually never fell so it could be brought back by clay people i think is the symbolizm here. the different parts of the statue equate to a primary metalof the time of the empire, like brass bronz era etc.

like I said before, I must be totally wrong here, and must have your thread out of context. let me know good luck

 

[Justme]

Hi Ben07,

The idea of world empires was mentioned yes. However, there has already been more than seven empires. Like you, I can't name them either, but I have been assured there is more than seven. The future world empire is a severe stretch as well. America is the most powerful country in the world and it will never dominate and annex other coutries to become an empire. The European situation is nothing like the empires of old. The British empire is in there somewhere as well. I wouldn't consider it a fit at all, but of course, to each as they please.

Justme

 

[A4C]

Why is it that people try to give natural answers to spiritual questions?

 

[Southern Cross]

There are 6 major worldwide kingdoms (or recognized empires that ruled the known world) that have existed. Those were:
1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon/Babylonia 4. Persia . 5. Greece. The sixth empire was Rome, in power at the time of John's recording of Revelation.

The 7th kingdom/empire, decribed as "other is not yet come that must continue a little while" can easily be interpreted as the world wide ruling governement represented by the 10 horns, or 10 kings in power during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation prior to the antichrist taking over completely (see vs 12). Verse 11 seems to indicate the antichrist is the 8th kingdom but still a part of the 7th kingdom (I think this means he assumes the evil characteristics of all the kings of the 7th kingdom as he comes into his full power).

Now I don't know about you folks, but this is NOT history twisted to fit the requirements of a Biblical prophecy. there really have been only 6 empires that have ruled the known world to date. I strongly believe in literal interpretation of end times prophecy, and there are just too many similarities between the UN (or possibly it's successor) for me to ignore them.

There are a lot of views out there on the literal vs. representative translations of prophecy presented in Revelation, Danial, Isaiah, and others. I sincerely do not believe we've seen the antichrist arrive on the scene but we are fast approaching that time and he is probably alive today. There is a clock that started ticking when Israel reformed as a nation (we just don't know when the first of a series of alarms is going to go off).

Sorry to jump in here, but I have a strong interest - almost addiction - to end times prophecy and wanted to present a view that hopefully sparks some thought and conversation among all of you. I know I'd certainly like to learn more.

 

[Southern Cross]

Gosh, can't sleep tonight, so I'll post one more comment...

About the 6 kingdoms. This is supported by Daniel 2:39-41. Daniel was responsible for interpreting King Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue made of various materials. Daniel mentioned Nebudchadnezzar's kingdom (Babylon - Gold), then Persia (Silver), Greece (bronze) and then Rome (Irona/clay). That' only four kingdoms. However, before Babylon, there was Egypt and Assyria, for a total of 6 kingdoms.

Someone asked about the kingdoms vs. empires question...

Daniel 2:37 indicates that Nebudchadnezzar is a king above kings, so other kingdoms existed under Nebudchadnezzar's rule. Archaeology has proven that there were multiple kingdoms in existance regardless of the time period throughout history. But in this case, Daniel is referring to major empires. For me, this settles the argument that we should look at the "6 kingdoms" as empires, so as not to confuse them with lesser kingdoms that were undoubtedly in existance around the world.

And the European Union is not an Empire? Do we expect today's empires to wield the same conquering military might that Rome did? Or is it more of a question of economic power - which has a far greater reach in today's world of shared economies, sanctions and diplomacy? Let's see, there are how many nations currently in the European Union? 16? And how many appling for entry? 11 more? The Euro has climbed markedly in value against the US dollar. And if you look at a map, the European Union is beginning to look a lot like the core of the old Roman Empire, and even moreso when you add states that are applying for entry into the EU. It's only a matter of time before the EU is going to hold more worldwide economic policy setting power than the US. And with that comes tremendous power and worldwide influence. We've never seen a financial powerhouse like this before - correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not saying the EU is the rebirthed Roman Empire, but I don't think we can say it's not, either. Give it more time. And keep in mind that the EU looks to the UN as a valid organization and will undoubtedly support it's expansion of powers. So let's stay focused on the EU and the UN for a while.

Too many "coincidences" out there are pointing toward a literal end times translation of scripture.

 

[Justme]

Hi Southern Cross,

Too many "coincidences" out there are pointing toward a literal end times translation of scripture.

We could have a great discussion because I hold that there are zero signs of any end here and now.

The 7th kingdom/empire, decribed as "other is not yet come that must continue a little while" can easily be interpreted as the world wide ruling governement

I guess this is my first concern... there is no ruling world govenment and there is a lot of bombs between now and when there is one. The UN is not a world govenment.

The last guy that wanted to rule the world was a severe mental case and he was killed by allies who quickly returned to countries of their own allowed others to do the same. The world empoire thing is as I said a stretch too big for me.

I would like to see some indication of the five have fallen and one is example a bit mor e solid.

For instance the Roman empire fizzled what 14oo yars ago???? I don't get the impression from Rev 17:10 that ewe are looking at a 100,000 year operation here.

John said "and now is...the Roman empire..........But then John said about the beast...now is not. If one is at that time they both are in my mind. Now what?

The seven kings are also seven hills and the seven hills are where that city sits. Rome sits on seven hills, can the final empire be the Vatican? No, because it has to be part of the seven and it wasn't plus it didn't just stay for a little while.


I'm looking into these ancient empires again because I'm curious too.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi Forum,

It all boils down to this.

At the timeframe of Rev chapter 17 this is one thing that should be clear.

18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

What city is ruling over kings, plural' today? Nobody will answer that, but if they did we would get a multitude of answers and Rome probably wouldn't even be one of them. New York maybe or Washington, some might guess Bagdad, but all that would indicate is that there really isn't any city ruling over 'kings' today. What that means is that we are not in any last days and not in any connection with the Book of Revelation at this time. Anybody can climb up on a box and beller out that it is 35 years from now, but it would be as meaningless as those who said the same about 35 years ago.

Last days............hogwash. Now we can move on to the trampling of some city because that don't fit the present times either.

Justme

 

[In Christ Forever]

Hi Forum,

It all boils down to this.

At the timeframe of Rev chapter 17 this is one thing that should be clear.

18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

What city is ruling over kings, plural' today? Nobody will answer that, but if they did we would get a multitude of answers and Rome probably wouldn't even be one of them. New York maybe or Washington, some might guess Bagdad, but all that would indicate is that there really isn't any city ruling over 'kings' today. What that means is that we are not in any last days and not in any connection with the Book of Revelation at this time. Anybody can climb up on a box and beller out that it is 35 years from now, but it would be as meaningless as those who said the same about 35 years ago.

Last days............hogwash. Now we can move on to the trampling of some city because that don't fit the present times either.

Justme

Solomon comes to mind as reigning over the kings of the "earth" because of his massive wealth that he used to buy all things for the temple and palace to be built. Did he literally REIGN over the "kings"?
Since the whole bible is about Israel and Jerusalem, it would appear "logical" that the book of revelation is also about Jerusalem and Israel.
Jerusalem reigning over the kings simply implies her wealth and status and the "kings" became rich through her "luxuries", at least this appears to be what revelation is saying.I am sure I can come up with more verses, but why bother.

2 chron 9:25 Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king at Jerusalem. 26 So he reigned over all the kings from the River to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. 27 The king made silver [as common] in Jerusalem as stones, and he made cedar trees as abundant as the sycamores which [are] in the lowland.

reve 18:9 " The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 "standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.' 14 "The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all. 15 "The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,