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Fear of Preterism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Back To The Future, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    XXXIX.
    Christ,(4) who was called the Son of God before the ages, was manifested in the fulness of time, in order that He might cleanse us through His blood, who were under the power of sin, presenting us as pure sons to His Father, if we yield ourselves obediently to the chastisement of the Spirit. And in the end of time He shall come to do away with all evil, and to reconcile all things, in order that there may be an end of all impurities.
    http://www.ccel.org/fathers/ANF-01/iren/irenfrag.html

    ok I found these lost fragments of Ireneaus, and I pasted on part that I found quite interesting in the fact that he refers to the end of time!!

    what's your thought on this??

    ps gonna go look for some more (geez)
     
  2. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    You must admit...Just as I may be wrong (in your mind)...Irenaeus may be wrong....

    Let me guess, you say well He's a early church father, so I'll go with him over any low life message board punk...

    But wait...you quote Irenaeus...I quote Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, James, etc. etc. etc. which in turn means I quote God himself...
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    He was wrong.

    If indeed "Fullness of time" = "end of Time", and I do not believe it does.

    The bible teaches that the Kingdom, generations of man and the earth itself are all to continue forever. Time has no end.

    PS: if i'm not mistaken, Ireneaus also said Christ Lived to be 50 and was never crucified!
     
  4. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    this guy also thought Jesus lived till the age of 50 :rolleyes:

    to tell you the truth i don't understand bunk of what he's saying :scratch:

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/TOC.htm#TopOfPage


    ok check out this site, it gives his books and actually kinda breaks it up in chapters, but still hard to understand. :sleep: in the preface they say it's cause of the orginal language but i don't know,, check it out for yourselves and tell me what you think!
     
  5. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok where does it say time won't end, have never heard that before!!
     
  6. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok i was told to look to the early church fathers, are they not who came up with the theory that the second coming has already happened!!

    i was looking for the date revelation was written
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ephesians 3:21
    "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
     
  8. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok this is how the verse is in my NIV

    to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations for ever and ever Amen Eph 1:21(NIV)
    Far above all principality, and power,and might, and dominion adn every name that is named not only in this world, but also in that which is to come Eph 1:21 (KJV)

    and this was a prayer to God about the ephesians from Paul.

    and if you look at the corresponding verses give you will see that these are all praises given to our Saviour Jesus Christ and God

    examples

    NIV corresponding verse is
    For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen Romans 11:36

    the KJV corresponding verse is

    For I am persuaded, that niether death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers,nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 9:38,39

    so not only praise but maybe also to illustrate that nothing can ever separate us from God's Love.
     
  9. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

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    Brother Manifestation1*AD70 gave an outstanding summery of the reasons for a pre-AD70 dating of Revelation on another forum over at Yahoo. I don’t think he will mind me quoting him. Preterists, this one is a keeper!

    Manifestation wrote:

    "The dating of the book of Revelation is a kind of issue that needs to be studied (as a whole). The futurist approach that we have all been taught in the past has simply not communicated well. It is like a picture puzzle. If one studies the pieces separately, he will not see the whole picture.

    Those who oppose the early dating of the Book of Revelation are looking at a part of the puzzle without dealing with the whole. The "inner evidence" problem. John was witting within the historical setting "of his own time." The problem that many have in not understanding Revelation is because they try to interpret it through a futurists view.

    One important "literal part" of the puzzle that is over looked is that the temple and the city were apparently still standing in Revelation 11, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD. And if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is deafening!

    2- And John called himself their brother and companion in tribulation (Revelation 1:9). The problem with this [Domitian date] theory is that there is no evidence that during the last decade of the first century there occurred any open and systematic persecution of the
    church.

    3- According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD.

    4- There were "other apostles who were not of Christ" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the died before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time.

    5 - The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic.

    6 - The second century Syrian version of the book has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.

    7 - Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666. (You can find this stated in almost any Study Bible). What is shocking is that using gematria Caesar Nero's name would add up to 616 in those versions, but in Hebrew, 666. This is very strong evidence that Caesar Nero really was the one being referred to as the beast and that the change from 666 to 616 in some manuscripts was intentional for that very reason. It is nearly impossible to find another person's name in that time frame that would do this!

    8 - The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. Roman emperors are (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius,(4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero. Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only
    a little while . . Galba, 6 months. If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy.

    9 - Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.

    10 - What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? This would be completely ridiculous. This implies that the beast was living at the time of this writing, thus proving not necessarily the pre-70 AD writing, but definitely the "at hand" time statements of the book.

    11 - The 7th king of Revelation 17 is not yet here. If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD.

    12 - In Revelation there seems to be only 7 churches in Asia. Historically, there seems to be many more than that after 70 AD as Christianity began to grow very rapidly.

    13 - The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when . . . Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.

    12- There is no concrete and inescapable reference, in any of the New Testament books, to the destruction of Jerusalem, and that in itself is not, a pretty surprising fact? We do not expect to see John writing of these particular Jewish centered world ending events because they did not happen yet pre-70 AD.

    There is other evidence. There are spiritual considerations involved in the book as well. These points need to be taken into consideration to see the whole picture. Once a person catches a glimpse a light will turn on.

    1- Jesus speaking to the religious leader of that day who insisted they were the seed of Abraham "the true Jews" John 8:33. You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it (John 8:44).

    John witting of these Jews had this to say. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. insidious (Revelation 3:9).

    2-In the Old Testament, Israel is viewed as the wife of the Lord; (see Jer.3) The once faithful city became an harlot sleeping with anyone who came by (Isa. 1:21; Jer 2:20, 3:13). Israel enlisted the help of Nero to stop the Church and John describes her as a harlot riding the beast (Revelation 17).

    3- This harlot woman, or Babylon (city, claimed to be the true wife of the Lord (18:9), and the true holy city (11:2, 8). Such a claim could not be made after 70 A.D.

    4- John identifies the enemies of God as Gog and Magog whose number is as the sand of the sea. (Revelation 20:8). A clue is given to us by God in their numbers it was as the "sand of the sea." This too can only apply to a pre-70 AD date. The only people who ever received that promise was Abrahams descendants. No other people received that
    pomise.

    5-The blood flowing as high as the horses' bridles would portray the gravity of judgment (Revelation 14:20). The distance of 1600 stadia (about 180 miles) just happens to be the approximate length of the land of Palestine. The "inner evidence" for a early date into the book of Revelation goes on and on. I hope that has helped."
     
  10. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    gwynn...What? it's written in the Bible...

    parousia...is there anyway you could break that verse down in greek..?
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    here's a couple links you might find helpful:

    The dating of Revelation

    Link #1

    Link # 2

    and here is an exerpt from yet another:

    From David Curtis, bereanbiblechurch.org, introduction to Revelation:

    The most important issue that confronts the interpreter of Revelation is the date that it was written. Two views compete for validity: the late date view (AD 95-96) which is the current evangelical opinion and the early date view (AD 65-66). The early date view says that Revelation speaks of the birth pangs of the Kingdom, the beginning of Church history. The late date view allows for a wide variety of interpretations; it views the book as the end of the kingdom and of Church history. Does Revelation speak of a looming great tribulation which will bring worldwide chaos upon the scene of contemporary history? Or did it inform the first century Christians of grave and trying times that they would face which would demonstrate that Christianity could weather the storms? This is a very practical matter.

    The late date view comes exclusively from external evidence based on a statement made by Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202). Irenaeus is the only source for this late dating of Revelation; all other sources are based on him. There are other early writers whose statements indicate that John wrote Revelation much earlier. Our safest course, therefore, is to study the Revelation itself to see what internal evidence it presents regarding the date of its writing.

    The text of Revelation provides a self-witness for the date it was written.

    Revelation 11:1-2 (NKJV) Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

    These verses refers to a temple standing in a city called the `holy city'. Based upon Old Testament Scripture, we can surmise that a Christian Jew such as John would have had the historical Jerusalem in mind when he spoke of the holy city.

    Isaiah 52:1 (NKJV) "Awake, awake! Put on your strength, O Zion; Put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city! For the uncircumcised and the unclean Shall no longer come to you."

    Nehemiah 11:1 (NKJV) "Now the leaders of the people dwelt at Jerusalem; the rest of the people cast lots to bring one out of ten to dwell in Jerusalem, the holy city, and nine-tenths were to dwell in other cities."

    For further identification of this city, Revelation 11:8 tells us:

    Revelation 11:8 (NKJV) And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    This city is the site of our Lord's crucifixion; this can only be the historical Jerusalem. What temple stood in Jerusalem? Obviously the Jewish temple which was ordained of God, known as Herod's Temple. Herod the Great came to power in 37 B.C. and determined that he would please his Jewish subjects and impress the Romans with his kingly qualities by making the Jerusalem Temple bigger and better than it had ever been.

    This reference to the temple must be the historical structure for three reasons. First of all, it was located in Jerusalem. Secondly, according to Revelation 11:2 it was to be under attack for 42 months. Nero commissioned Flavian Vespasian, a Roman general, to engage Israel in war in February AD 67. He actually entered the Promised Land and engaged in battle that spring so that the Jewish war with Rome lasted from spring AD 67 until the temple fell in August AD 70, forty-two months later. Luke 21:20 contains Jesus' prophecy regarding the destruction of the temple: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." The time from Revelation 11 fits with what history tells us of the Jewish war. Finally, the structure of Revelation 11:1&2 parallels Jesus' statement in His Olivet discourse found in Luke 21:20-24. In Luke 21:5-7 the disciples point to the temple and ask about its future. Jesus tells them it will soon be destroyed, stone by stone. In Luke 21:24 He speaks in terms which are echoed in Revelation 11:2. These two passages speak of the same event, the destruction of Jerusalem.

    When was Revelation written? Is the late date view or the early date view correct? We know from historical and archaeological evidence that the temple was destroyed in August of 70 AD. If this temple was still standing when John wrote, he must have written before 70 AD.

    Revelation 17 is the second major piece of internal evidence for the early date view of Revelation. In Revelation 17 a vision of the seven-headed beast is recorded. This vision offers clear evidence that Revelation was recorded before the death of Nero Caesar. We know that Nero committed suicide on June 9, 68AD.

    Revelation 17:1-6 (NKJV) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 "with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." 3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

    Revelation 17:9 (NKJV) "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

    Verses 1, 3, and 6 of Revelation describe a vision and verse nine gives us clues to the meaning of the vision. Almost all scholars recognize that the seven mountains of Revelation 17:9 represent the seven hills of Rome. John points out that the wise one will understand; the recipients of this letter lived under the rule of Rome which was universally distinguished by its seven hills. How could the recipients of this letter who lived in the seven historical churches of Asia minor under Roman imperial rule understand anything else by this geological reference?

    Revelation 17:10 (NKJV) "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

    Revelation 17:10 says that the seven heads also represent a political situation: "There are also seven kings." Revelation 17:10 shows how the seven heads also correspond to the line of the Caesars. "Five have fallen", (past tense): The first five Caesars were Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. "One is", (present tense): Nero, the sixth Caesar, was on the throne as John was writing the Revelation. Nero reigned from October 54 AD until June 68 AD, when he committed suicide because his empire was in civil war. "And the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time," (Future tense): Galba, the seventh Caesar, reigned for less than 7 months (June, 68 AD to January, 69 AD).

    In Revelation 17:7 the angel says, "Don't wonder--I'll show you what it means"; in verses nine and ten the vision is explained. The seven heads refer to a historical place, Rome, and the political scene, Nero's reign. Revelation must have been written before Nero committed suicide in 68 AD. The internal evidence points clearly to the early date view.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    As far as eph 1:21 goes, you'll notice that in the Greek, the word for "world" is "Aion" which means Age or period of time. Aion never means physical planet earth. Never.

    The YLT, word for word rendering of the greek gives us a clear reading:
    Eph1:21
    far above all principality, and authority, and might, and lordship, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in the coming one;


    Nowhere does the Bible teach that the planet earth we live on today will come to an end. In fact scripture teaches the exact opposite:

    Psalms 78:69
    And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Right!
    So tell me, how do you reconcile your belief that the world will end when the above verse says "all generations for ever and ever"?


    Where does this verse indicate anything other than generations of humans on earth will come and go forever?
     
  14. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok and what about those that reigned after galba

    and also what of the ten horns/kingdoms
    also with explaining the above explain these verses from your viewpoint

    And the beast that was,and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have recieived no kingdom as yet; but recieive power as kings one hour with the beast Rev 17 11-12 KJV

    perdition 684 apoleia, ruin or loss
     
  15. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    i said that verse was in praise to God, in that his love for us was unending, did you not look at the corresponding verses, yet look at the ones given in your own bible
     
  16. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    Parousia...how bout Rev. 10:6...

    gwynn...whether it was a praise or not(which it is) it is truth or it would not be in the Bible...so if it does indicate the world(read age) without end...then it's age without end...

    gwynn...about revelations...the beast that was and is not is the land beast...which of course is Israel...it's in cahoots with Rome(symbolized as the sea beast, which had the seven emperor's as stated above) to destroy the early church for different reasons but the same end...the ten kings are governors of the ten provinces of Rome...
     
  17. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    Ok Isaiah 66:22, 2 Peter 3:13, and Rev. 21:1 all refer to a new earth and heaven.

    2 Peter 3:10
    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

    heaven's here to means the sky

    i looked up bare, in strongs and well unless you want me to list them all, we can all asume that it was 6209 to bare; to demolish
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    How do you figure Heavens in this passage means sky?
    And what do you propose the word "elements" refers to in this passage?

    What about the "heavens and earth" God created "After" he parted the sea and brought the hebrew people out of Egypt?
    (Isaiah 51:16.)

    Either God created a new Planet and sky after he brought the hebrews out of Egypt, or "Heavens and Earth" means something else here.

    What do you think?
     
  19. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok here's a verse from Jesus himself

    Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever i have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

    Mark28:20
     
  20. davo

    davo Member

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    Again in Matt 28:20 the word "world" in the Greek means "age" -a period of time, not "terra firma."

    davo
     
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