Fear of Preterism

[franklin]

Originally posted by jenlu
RE: First Century eyes

I believe some of the time text full preterists use for the Judgement Day/Resurrection Day may be up for debate, although I've yet to hear a concise view on many of those verses...

Hi Jen, I have to say that the full preterist view is the most consistant answer to all prophecy fulfillment and that would include all judgements. Why do you feel the judgements are still up for debate? I think from reading your posts, you seem pretty convinced about the judgement on Jerusalem in AD70.... this is where all the judgements have taken place.... As far as the kingdom of God is concerned, it is a present reality.... Jesus said, 'the kingdom of God is within you'
Full Preterism teaches a world without end which means there are no future judgements.

 

[jenlu]

franklin, I hear what you're saying...

 

[Mike Beidler]

Originally posted by jenlu
Mike,
So you would consider yourself as a full preterist...That's fine, I just assumed you hadn't worked that stuff out just yet...wouldn't mind conversing on those time texts and inconcistencies...really trying to look for a reason to believe it and can't yet...

My "handle" on the www.planetpreterist.com website is "FuturePreterist." I liked the tension.

But concerning the things I haven't worked out yet, the list is getting smaller and smaller every day. I'm quickly shifting my paradigm, so to speak.

Zechariah 14 was a big hurdle. When I read the passage, I just couldn't reconcile it with the "bigger" truths of preterism. But when I asked for help from other preterists, I was pleasantly surprised with the answers.

The physicality of the "rapture" was a big hurdle. But digging a little deeper into the Greek text, I found the full preterist view of a non-physical rapture at death to work. Additionally, I discovered that the rapture of the "dead in Christ" and the rapture of those who "are alive and remain" need not be subsequent to each other as it appears in modern English translations.

Taking the Millennium down to 40 years was hard. But when I compared the events described in the Millennium to NT events and 70 AD, I was convinced I had to un-literalize the number 1000 (which is what partial preterists do) and view it as simply "a long time" per Mt 25:19.

But the more I study, the more I become convinced.

What would work best is if you give us a particular troublesome passage and we'll try our best to help you understand the full preterist take on it. (Just remember that not even all full preterists agree on some passages.)

 

[gwyyn]

Revalation was written in 95 AD, after Nero had destroyed Jerusalem! So why is it in the bible then, why cause it is prophesy that has not all yet taken place.l

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. Rev 1:3

I know this was written to the 7 churches, but maybe it was written to us too, since the rest of the bible is the written Word of God that we read and take to heart and know to be true!


Ok these are the verses that state the the Jesus still hasn't came!!! (IMHO)

"Behold I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book." Rev. 22:7

"Behold I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to evyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Rev 22:12

Notice on that last verse Jesus sais he is the Beginning and the END, so if your view was right, then wouldn't we be in the millenial reign and had already gone through judgement day, and eating freely from the tree of life!

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will ad to him the plagues described in this book, And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are describe in this book Rev. 22:18

Ok I just threw that last verse in to get some thinking.
My main reason due to the dates that you use to support that the 2nd coming as already happened. I still am trying to understand how someone can think this has already happened, cause if it had already happened in Nero's times, then why was John directed to write Revalation?????

I have gone to the preterist websites and read through some and found something quite disturbing! At the website planetpreterist, I clicked on preterist outline, and one thing on this page that stuck out at me was that preteristism (sp sorry) was created as a solution to a dilema. I may have read it wrong but it sure did stick out like a sore thumb to me! maybe someone could explain that to me!

 

[davo]

Some good thoughts there Mike

Originally posted by Mike Beidler
...and view it as simply "a long time" per Mt 25:19.

Have you ever noticed that in all the gospels where Jesus gives some account of the "Boss" going away and coming back at some later time, and then recompencing according to the situation of the story -that he always comes back to the very same people that he gives his charge to -i.e., to his [or should I say "this"] generation.

davo

 

[Mike Beidler]

Originally posted by davo
Some good thoughts there Mike

Have you ever noticed that in all the gospels where Jesus gives some account of the "Boss" going away and coming back at some later time, and then recompencing according to the situation of the story -that he always comes back to the very same people that he gives his charge to -i.e., to his [or should I say "this"] generation.

davo

BINGO.

 

[jenlu]

gwynn,

First of all...it's plain to me that Revelations was written before 70 A.D. Look at those verses you used...the word soon does not mean imminent...it means soon...Now as for the planet preterist site...from what I understand there are many differing opinions in preterism just like dispensationalism, so don't take what any person or people say and assume it for all preterists...

Now Mike...
talk to me about the millenium...what comparison's do you make with it and the period from 30-70AD...we'll deal with Zecharia later...

 

[gwyyn]

Umm no, John was exiled to the Island of Patmos in the year 90 AD by the Roman Emperor Dimitian!!
Which is where he was when he wrote the book of Revelation.

 

[Mike Beidler]

Originally posted by gwyyn
Umm no, John was exiled to the Island of Patmos in the year 90 AD by the Roman Emperor Dimitian!!
Which is where he was when he wrote the book of Revelation.

What is your evidence? Please provide patristic quotes to the effect.

 

[gwyyn]

I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom an dpatient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos becasue of the word of God and the testiomony of Jesus. Rev 1:9 NIV

ok this verse tells me he wrote it from the island of Patmos. My study bible provides a timeline as to when each book was written and unless those who translated my bible were totally wrong, they give the date as about 95 AD. Here's what's written under the title setting:
Most scholars believe that the seven churches of Asia to whom John writes were experiencing the persecution that took place under Emperor Domitian (AD 90-95). It seems that the Roman authorities had exiled John to the island of Patmos (off the coast of Asia). JOhn, who had been an eyewitness of the incarnate Christ, had a vision of the glorified Christ. God also revealed to him what would take place in the future-judgment and the ultimate triump of God over evil.

this is taken from my Life Application Bible, NIV

and I took so long replying cause I was doing searches on the internet of Biblical History and nearly all sites show the time of Revelation to be written is between 90-97 AD. I'm not sure which date is the absolute truth, but they all give the same time frame. I encourage you to do the same search, and if you come up with a different date, let me know.

I'm not totally sure how to put links on here or i would have ok!!!!

 

[Mike Beidler]

Originally posted by gwyyn
I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom an dpatient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos becasue of the word of God and the testiomony of Jesus. Rev 1:9 NIV

ok this verse tells me he wrote it from the island of Patmos.

I have no problem with this.

My study bible provides a timeline as to when each book was written and unless those who translated my bible were totally wrong, they give the date as about 95 AD. Here's what's written under the title setting:
Most scholars believe that the seven churches of Asia to whom John writes were experiencing the persecution that took place under Emperor Domitian (AD 90-95). It seems that the Roman authorities had exiled John to the island of Patmos (off the coast of Asia). JOhn, who had been an eyewitness of the incarnate Christ, had a vision of the glorified Christ. God also revealed to him what would take place in the future-judgment and the ultimate triump of God over evil.

this is taken from my Life Application Bible, NIV

Here's your first problem: you're using a secondary source. Go to the primary sources, i.e., quotes from early Church fathers regarding the date of writing of Revelation. Check them out and tell me what you find.

I was doing searches on the internet of Biblical History and nearly all sites show the time of Revelation to be written is between 90-97 AD. I'm not sure which date is the absolute truth, but they all give the same time frame. I encourage you to do the same search, and if you come up with a different date, let me know.

Here's a great example of scholarship being affected by a mass paradigm. Seeing as "most biblical scholars" believe the Second Coming of Jesus to be future, they have no problem setting the date of composition to AD 90-100, thus allowing their bias to affect their interpretation and/or ignoring of the evidence.

The only quote that I know of that *possibly* supports a post-AD 70 composition is one from Irenaeus, and even that's not a quote from the original Greek, which was lost. However, the reconstructed Greek text (I'll let you do a little digging to find the Latin quote) allows for a pre-AD 70 composition.

From what I've seen, the overwhelming evidence points to a pre-AD 70 composition. If Kenneth Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell" doesn't convince you of this, I don't know what will. His book is absolutely astounding.

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Mike Beidler

If Kenneth Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell" doesn't convince you of this, I don't know what will. His book is absolutely astounding.

Mike,

Your preterist brother's don't like Gentry at all. They gave me a ton of grief because I posted a quote from Gentry.


Auntie.

 

[Mike Beidler]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Mike,

Your preterist brother's don't like Gentry at all. They gave me a ton of grief because I posted a quote from Gentry.

That's because he's a partial preterist. But they can't discount his scholarship in the area of Revelation's date of composition. Just ask them.

 

[jenlu]

gwynn,

The reason why it's plain to me that it was written before 70 AD, is because it is about a period from 66-70AD...Most of the signs of that book were fulfilled in what occured in 70AD...The words used by John(God) about the urgency of the Coming of the Lord are not mistakable in my mind anymore...Jesus told people in the first century, He was "coming" soon..."the time is at hand"...you are living in the last days...He was not mistaken...

 

[gwyyn]

Jesus also said he did not know when he would return, that only his Father knew the hour!

is Jesus contradicting himself then!

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by gwyyn
Jesus also said he did not know when he would return, that only his Father knew the hour!
is Jesus contradicting himself then!

What a red herring if I ever saw one.

I could say that I plan to go to the grocery store sometime, but I'm not sure exactly when.

That doesn't mean I can never go to the grocery store. OF course I'll know when I went *after* the fact!

-A

 

[jenlu]

gwynn...
It's easy to see that Jesus knew what would lead up to His "Coming"...see Matthew 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13...He also knew He was "Coming" in the generation then living...see Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32, or Mark 13:30...that is in no contradiction to the exact time(day and hour) of His "Coming"...Many of his disciple's also figured he was "Coming" soon as you read the N.T., but they did not know the exact time...

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by gwyyn
Jesus also said he did not know when he would return, that only his Father knew the hour!

is Jesus contradicting himself then!

While Jesus didn't know before he left, when he would return, the Bible makes it clear that after he left, but before he returned, he knew, because the father told him:

Revelation 1:1-31
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God [The father] gave Him [The Son] to show His servants[1st century Christians]--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

It is crystal clear that at the time Revelation was written, Jesus knew when He would return, and He said it would be soon in human understanding. This is evidenced by the 100% consistant fact that when the Bible attaches a time limit to prophetic fulfillment, it is always given to be understood by how time relates to man, and not how time relates to God.

Every time, without fail, always.
When God says "soon" He really means "soon".

 

[NumberOneSon]

Jesus did not say "I don't know when I'll return", - the only thing He said was that He did not know the "day or hour". The Lord certainly knew that it would be within the apostles generation, and there is no contradiction in that.

I used this example before; if I told you that I would visit you within your generation (40 years), but at the moment I did not know the exact day or hour, how would that be contradictory? I can know that within 40 years I will visit you without knowing the day or hour. But when Christ ascended to the Father's right hand you better believe He was made aware of the time table. That's why He instructed His apostles so well over the next 40 years, and why Revelation is called the "The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, which the Father GAVE unto Him,to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass".

While in the flesh Jesus was unaware of the "day or hour". After He ascended He was made aware and guided His apostles with revelation (not just the book of Revelation) in order to lead the Church to that marvelous day.

Hope that helps.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[jenlu]

Parousia
I really like how you worded that last line...so true...