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Fear of Preterism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Back To The Future, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    Not knowing who closed this thread, I will re-open the thread, with a final warning:

    I am not taking any sides on the issues in this thread, what I will be doing is watching for anyone mistreating another. Differences of opinions, different interpretations of scripture, and strong belief in one's own belief system is one thing, but I have no more patience with personal attacks, by anyone!

    The next person who resorts to personal attacks in this thread, will be banned for 48 hours.


    John
     
  2. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi Josephus! Excellent question; would preterists concede to the precedent of God using prophecy in double-fulfillments? I think GW or someone else has gone into depth about this in the past, but I'll see what I can add. We recognize that God has used Old Testament shadows to speak of New Testament realities. In that sense there is a "double-fulfillment" of sorts (and I use that term hestitantly). In some prophecies (certainly not all of them) there was an application in OT times and an application in NT times. An example of this would be Psalm 16, in which David spoke of himself and Christ.

    So "double-fulfillment", in a sense, can be applied to certain passages from the OT (and I still hesitate to use that term). But the NT times were to be the fulfillment of those OT shadows, not the beginning of a new era of types and shadows. Preterists do not believe in triple or quadruple fulfillments. We believe in an OT shadow and a NT reality for certain prophecies. There is no biblical precident, for example, in taking Isaiah 13 concerning the destruction of ancient Bablyon by the Medes and applying a "future fulfillment" to America, Russia, and the end of the universe. There is no biblical principle in which there was to be an Old Testament Anti-Christ (Antiochus), and then two or three NT Anti-Christs (Nero, and some yet-to-be-known future guy).

    Preterists do not believe that when Jesus warned His disciples "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh (Luke 21:20)" that there is any room for multiple fulfillments, as if every time Jerusalem is surrounded by armies over the next 2000 years Christ's disciples are supposed "flee to the mountians". If Luke 21 was not meant specifically for the 1st Century Discples Jesus spoke to, and if it was meant to have one or two or three fulfillments before the final, real fulfillment, then how can this passage truly be understood and obeyed? For an example of this, on the Eschatology forum I read a post in which someone stated that Jerusalem could be "surrounded by armies" now simply because Palestinians and other Arab neighbors are enemies of Israel, and they have countries that border Israel. Do you see the problem with this? "Armies surrounding Jerusalem" can now mean sporadic attacks by suicide bombers and neighboring enemy countries who are not even invading Israel at this point.

    So who has the authority or the ability to discern for the entire Christian world if the final fulfillment has come rather then some multiple fulfillment? I would be very interested in finding out how many Christians today would actually be willing to abandon their homes, forever leaving their former lives behind them, and fleeing to the mountains to live the remainder of their lives the very next time Israel is invaded or Jerusalem is attacked.

    I personally have a problem with this kind of futurist exegesis because other Christian offshoots (like Mormonism) apply this interprative process to justify their own existance. Isaiah 29:1-13 speaks of apostate Jerusalem (Israel) in the OT, but the LDS Church declares a "double fulfillment" of the passages, saying they also speak of an ancient civilization of Israelites in the Americas some 400 years after Christ, and of the coming of the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith. Christians are aghast at this kind of interpretive process used by Mormons, and yet these very same Christians use the exact same interpretive principle to find Russia, apache helicopters, and nuclear war in various biblical passages. Something's wrong here.

    I've recently bought a book called Biblical Exegesis in the Apostolic Period by Richard Longenecker that investigates the hermenuetical principles Jesus and the Disciples used when applying OT passages to the NT times. It should shed a great deal of light on the subject of "double fulfillments" and such. I'll try to remember to get back to you when I'm done reading it and give you my impressions.

    If some other preterists would like to add to this, please feel free.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  3. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    Mike Beidler,

    Hey...about 4 or 5 years ago, I started my journey into (though I didn't know at the time it was called preterism) this eye-opening way of reading the Bible...For years I was a mind blowing dispensationalist...I once even had the audacity to tell one of my brothers that his son(4 at the time) would never see age 20...I've apologized since...towards the last 2 or 3 years of my dispensationalist leanings I started seeing things that didn't quite add up in scripture for dispensationalist viewpoint...time texts were a big one...I'd always sluff it off in my own mind and not really deal with it...it took a couple of years, but I finally started reading the Bible correctly...Well anyway...I've just heard of the full preterist view just a couple weeks ago and I don't buy the 2nd coming/Judgement Day/Resurrection Day has already past yet...What about you?...anyway, welcome to the journey...it's long and tough, but so worth it...
     
  4. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    Acts 6:5
    Very nice response ;)
     
  5. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Thanks, Bro. :)
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Josephus,
    Thanks for joining the discussion.

    Acts5 did a great job of addressing you question, and I find myself in agreement with him.

    I'd like to add a question to you that I have posed to everyone I have come across who champions the "double fulfillment" theory. I have yet to get an answer Perhaps my wait is over!:

    Should we be expecting another Virgin Birth? Another Crusifixion? another ascention?

    Why not?

    If, as you say, double fulfillment is the rule, then we should absolutely expect to see these events fulfilled again.

    If not, could you show which prophesies the Bible tells you to take as single fulfillment and which to take as multiple?

    Is the crusifixion a mere "type" of some future greater redemption from sin?
    No?

    Then why is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a mere "type" of some future destruction of Jerusalem?

    Where does the Bible tell you to make such a distinction?

    Thanks in Christ,
    P70
     
  7. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Good stuff, Parousia.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  8. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    OK, does the destruction of the temple occur during the futurist view of the tribulation?
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hey Par, I have no doubt within my military mind that most futurists will be able to answer your questions and try to prove a double fulfillment! For them to use the scriptures as the final authority to back up their claims is yet to be seen and proven! Their premise doesn't have much merit!
     
  10. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    Those are some good questions parousia...I especially am interested in the distinction between a dual fulfillment prophecy and a singular one...

    gwynn...who are you asking this question to...my belief... the temple destroyed in the tribulation was the temple Jesus was looking at when describing the tribulation...That's why after the disciple's made a fuss over the majesty of the temple they were actually looking at...He said (don't have my bible, but)... as for the the temple which you are looking at, days are coming that there will be not one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down...

    Those days came and could have only come in 70 AD...the temple was utterly destroyed just as Jesus said...that also fits right in with what Jesus said towards the end of this prophecy...this generation shall not pass till all these things take place...so Jesus (to me at least) wants to make it very clear, so much so, that He bookends the tribulation discussed with time texts...
     
  11. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ty jenlu for answering my question, without degrading me. I really appreciate it.


    ps there's not supposed me any sarcasm here either, just being nice :D
     
  12. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    No, that occurred in 70AD.
    The futurist view is that during the tribulation the anti-christ will set himself up as God in the temple. It is referred to as the abomination of desolation.
     
  13. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    Mandy...
    Since the futurist view is that there has to be a rebuilt temple, doesn't it seem to you that a rebuilt temple would be and offense to God, who in the person of Jesus Christ, already laid down his life as THE SACRIFICE...Rebuilding of a temple by jews in these days would be nothing more than another afront to Jesus being the true sacrifice and the REAL high priest as described in Hebrews...Besides those points no Jewish Temple built today inhabited by any anti-christ would be able to claim Godhood very easily...and people buying it...
     
  14. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    We as Christian see Jesus as The Sacrifice, but the Jews do not. There are many during the tribulation that will be deceived by the anti-christ.


    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    From Chuck Smith's commentary:
    v.27 The seventieth seven will begin when the Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel for a 7-year period (Isaiah 28:14-17). There are several hints in the Bible that tie Caesar Nero to the Antichrist. It appears that the same demon that controlled Nero will enter the European leader who will arise from the ten nations, and he will be the Antichrist (Revelation 17:8-11, 13:17-18).

    Some Bible teachers believe that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation. They feel that God is through with the nation Israel and all the prophetic references that deal with Israel actually refer to the Church. This misinterpretation of Scriptures has led to confusion over prophecies that are actually quite clear and simple (Matthew 24:15-22, Romans 11:1).

    This 7-year period will not start while God is still working in the Church to bring forth a Bride for Christ. Once the Church is complete, God will take it up to heaven. Then He'll turn to Israel and make the Jews His special people once again.

    After three and one-half years the Antichrist will put a stop to the daily sacrifices and prayers in the rebuilt temple. 1,290 days from this day Jesus will come to earth with His Church to establish His Kingdom and to fulfill the other prophecies concerning the Messiah that haven't yet been fulfilled (Matthew 24:15-22, II Thessalonians 2:4, Revelation 12:14, Isaiah 16:1-4).
     
  15. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    I agree with Mandy, it's the Jews who do not see Jesus as the messiah who will rebuild the temple.
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    ...but scripture clearly states that the "Man of Sin" sits in God's Temple and proclaim himself to be God.

    Please explain how a brick and mortar building built today by Christ rejecting, Gospel denying people can possibly be considered by God to be "His Temple"?

    The way I see it, a future to us rebuilt Jewish Temple can be no more "Gods Temple" in Gods eyes than the Mosque that stands there now.
     
  17. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Great point, parousia! I never really thought of that before; how could the temple possibly be God's now that His abode is within the hearts of His people? Why would God chose to return to the house of the Old Covenant?
     
  18. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok then what about daniels vision of the week and the covenant and the covenant being broken??
     
  19. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    gwynn,

    Let me fist state...there is no where in the Bible a call for a rebuilt temple...the temple to be destroyed during the tribulation, with the abomination of desolation and everything else involved, was standing or already built at the time of it's foretold destruction by Jesus...

    But to go along with this line of thinking...How, if a rebuilt temple, built by jews that do not believe Jesus was/is the Messiah, could that be a temple where the LIVING GOD actually dwells...It would actually be anti-GOD to even build something like that...so He of course would certainly not dwell there, like HE did in the past...and How could an unholy anti-GOD temple be defiled anymore by any anti-christ...there is also no need to split the 69th week with the 70th...it flows very nicely with the 70 AD fulfillment...

    Also the Jews will never be God's "special people" again...that is entirely against the scripture in the N.T. ...there will be a grafting back in of the natural vine, but solely through the blood of Jesus, which means ALL that come to God through Jesus Christ are joint-heirs(read as equal in the sight of God) with Jesus Christ...It would go against His word to reclaim the Jews alone as His "special people"...
     
  20. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    Who says that God will consider it "His" temple? It is a fact that the Jews are anticipating a new temple as they are preparing tools, etc and have even gone so far as to start checking into who is from the line of the tribe of Levi.
     
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