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Fear of Preterism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Back To The Future, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    The Bible says it's His Temple...not only that...you're gonna have to find the same exact stone's of the temple standing at the time of the indictment...
     
  2. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok let me ask this question first before i go on here

    The preterist view is that the antichrist has already reigned, am i correct?
     
  3. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    gwynn...
    It's not just a preterist view first of all...The Anitchrist is a sticky subject...antichrist is defined in 1John as anyone(that's right anyone) who denies the Son(Jesus Christ) as the Christ is in fact antichrist...

    Now if you are talking about the character(by this I mean actual person) discussed in Revelation as the Beast...(which is always mistaken as THE ANTICHRIST, while anyone from Hindu's to Moorman's to Jews today are antichrist)...then yes he did reign...Nero...
     
  4. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    i don't mean to ask tons of questions here, i'm just having a hard time with understanding that the prophesy has been fullfilled? I just don't understand where you stand on the tribulation, ect. basicly the rest of revolation?
     
  5. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    gwynn

    I love the question's, just so long as you show that your understanding what I'm saying...I'll try to make it clearer if you reask about whatever I didn't make clear...The Beast was a roman emperor named Nero...that's what I think you were asking, even though he is not the antichrist since antichrist can mean anyone who deny's the son...
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    ...uhhhh, the apostle Paul says, and he wasn't wrong.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    There is not now, nor ever shall be again a brick and mortar building that is the "temple of God" for we are now the "more perfect tabernacle", His temple made without hands, The temple of God today.

    Since it is impossible for this prophesy to be fulfilled in our future, This prophesy must have been fulfilled while Herods temple still stood.
     
  7. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok so let me ask this, who is the beast of the earth, and the beast of the sea? From what I read and understand the beast of the sea is the false prophet who will make people worship the beast of the earth. I think the beast of the earth is the "ultimate antichrist", but I can understand when you say anyone who deny's christ is an antichrist (wasn't hitler considered one). So to your understanding and the point of view who is the beast of the earth? do believe it was Nero?
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Another, and I believe fatal, flaw in the "multiple fulfillment" theory is that there can be no terminus. There can be no point when "Final fulfillment" can be declared for any particular prophesy, for something could always come along that could fulfill it in an even greater way than the time previous.

    Jesus, in contrast, places an absolute terminus on the fulfillment of every prophesy about Him.


    Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."


    And ealrlier, Jesus places the time of that terminus at the time of Jerusalems destriction:


    Luke 21:20-28
    20 "But when you
    [the apostles to whom Jesus was speaking] see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    The "all things written" of Luke 21 cannot be divorced from the "all things written" of Luke 24. They are the same.

    The way I see it, Either they were indeed fulfilled as and when Christ said they would be, or our faith is in vain.
     
  9. davo

    davo Member

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    If you're talking bricks and mortar, then that temple is long gone -if one is rebuilt, it has NOTHING to do with any bible prophecy.

    Scripture is CLEAR -WE now in the New Covenant ARE the Temple of God, we ARE His dwelling place. Paul says so on a number of occasions -and what did Jesus say:

    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

    How can we be God's Temple? By being Christ's Body, which Scripture says we are. Christ returned as He promised -believers ARE His Body in this world -it's all there in the NT, as prophesied in the OT. Jesus was only to return once, and that He did -no multiple fulfilments.

    davo
     
  10. davo

    davo Member

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    Exactly P70, it begs the question: How many times is a prophecy fulfilled before it is fulfilled -it becomes an endless loop [or should I say noose]. Not only that, but what criteria is put in place to determine this -it certainly isn't the scriptures. As Paul wrote: "do not go beyond what is written" and elsewhere "what saith the Scripture?"

    davo
     
  11. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    Honestly, Jenlu, up until a few months ago, I thought the full preterist view was heretical. But remaining time-reference inconsistencies in the partial preterist view forced me to take another close look at full preterism.

    I highly recommend David Curtis' online sermons at www.bereanbiblechurch.org. He's got a real irenic spirit and a lot of what he teaches makes sense. The problems I had with the Second Coming/Judgment Day/Resurrection Day all began to make sense, without resorting to hermenuetical gymnastics like Kenneth Gentry and others need to do. (Don't get me wrong, Gentry's a great scholar, but I believe he's mistaken on this point.) Notice that R. C. Sproul still has not taken a stand on full preterism ... he says he's still working out some issues, but I fully expect him to "come around." Even David Chilton, who was a die-hard partial preterist, converted to full preterism just before he died.

    I am the last person I ever thought would become a preterist. For a long time, I preached against it. It's been an interesting journey ...
     
  12. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Mike :wave: -that's one thing it definitely is, a journey :)

    davo
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    The first question is Who is The Prince?
    A big argument is over who this prince is. In the 1769 KJV, the first prince is capitalized - Prince and the second is not. Unfortunately, not knowing the Hebrew, folks err and make a doctrine based on the translators' take. What they may not know is that the 1611 KJV had both of them as "Prince." It was changed later. The YLT (a really good word-for-word translation of the Textus Receptus/Masoretic) has this:


    Daniel 9:25-26
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
    And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

    Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.


    Clearly, in the word for word, he equates Messiah the Prince with the Prince that shall come.

    In the KJV, we find that "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city." Does the prince destroy the city? No, the people of the prince. In 70 AD, the people of the prince rebelled and went against the Romans. What happened? The city was destroyed. Did they do it directly? Well, no one knows exactly who torched the temple. But, either way, the actions of the Jewish people in Jerusalem brought down the fury of the Roman armies. Whether the Jews burned it or the Romans did is rather a moot point.

    Look at this from Dan 9:26.
    "...and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    Desolations are determined to the end of the war. At the end, when Jerusalem was destroyed is when the desolation ended

    And now from the YLT....

    Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

    now from the KJV...

    Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.
    Jesus' ministry to the Jews alone was seven years...one week. the first 3.5 years through his 'in the flesh' earthly ministry, the 2nd 3.5 years through his apostles exclusive ministry to the Jews."Confirm" as shown by the YLT, means "strengthen." This says "Covenant." Not treaty. Covenant. What covenant?

    Look at Daniel 9 again...
    Daniel 9:3-4

    Daniel 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

    Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;


    Note that Daniel does not say to all Israel. He says to them that love him and that keep his commandments. So again, what covenant? It's a covenant that Jesus merely strengthened. It is the covenant that He gave to Abraham.

    Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


    How would all nations be blessed through Abraham's seed? Through Jesus the Christ.


    Jesus Strengthened the Covenant.
    Jesus strengthened the covenant that God had already made. Those believers in the Old Testament believed that God would do as He promised and provide His salvation, though they knew not the name of Jesus. Those who have believed since Jesus cmbelieved that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection paid the price for their (our) sins. It has always been the same. God has not changed. His mercy and grace has been extended in the same way, most folks, however, saw the physical or fleshly side and not the spiritual side and I must admit that I find it difficult somedays to see the spiritual too. I know we all do. The flesh wars against the Spirit all the time. Jesus confirmed the covenant that God had made with Abraham. In thee shall all nations be blessed. See also Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, and Luke 22:20.

    He shall cause the sacrifice to cease...
    In Daniel 9, we find that "he shall cause the sacrifice to cease." If this were the antichrist, as is taught by dispensationalists, then he has already been here because there has been no sacrifice in the temple for a long time. Not since 70 AD. Instead look at what Jesus' death meant. It meant that the covering of sins that the sacrifices did was no longer needed. He took all our sins upon Himself and once we accept that free gift, then ours sins are removed as far as east is from west.

    The sacrifice ceased literally in 70 AD, but the need ended at Calvary.

    And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Indeed, the city was made desolate. The Romans overran the city, destroying all that was in their wake. This has been done. History proves it.
     
  14. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    Ok you mentioned verses 3 and 4 of Daniel chapter 9, where Daniel is praying to God about he disturbing vision he had. Then the angel Gabriel comes to explain the vision cause Daniel had asked. So my question is about Daniel chap 9:24
    "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish trangession, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy."

    what does this verse mean to you?

    and also Daniel Chap 9:25
    Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens' and sixty-two 'sevens'. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

    And how does this verse apply? From this verse I think Jerusalem would have to be rebuilt, so was it destroyed before Nero destroyed it? And if so when?
    I think it refers to the rebuilding after Nero destroys it?


    oh and locating where the orginal temples were is easy since it is believed to be where the Muslim holy site of the Dome rock is at. Or atleast that is where it's percieved to be at.
     
  15. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    good questions...

    Well let's start with the beast from the sea...it was the Roman Empire personified by the emperor which at that time was Nero(Neron Kesar)...Let's look at some of the symbols of the beast from the sea..."ten horns and seven heads...in the image of the dragon(who we know is satan himself) who give this beast from the sea it's "power and his throne and great authority"...the 10 horns are described as governors of the ten provinces of the empire...the seven heads are the seven mountains and there are seven kings; five have fallen (Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius)...one is (Nero) one other has not yet come(Galba...reigned for 7 months)

    The beast from the land is the false prophet...I believe this to the Jewish religious leaders at the time...which you lead you back to what Jesus foretold about false prophets that would come and do miraculous signs and wonders(Act records instance of this during the first century)...the reason I think this is because the religious leaders tried to make their people submit to the emperor of Rome(the sea Beast)...How many times in the N.T. do you read of Jewish persecution of Christians...many in the book of Acts...Read how Paul describe's "those of the circumcision" in Titus 1:10-16
     
  16. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    Mike,
    So you would consider yourself as a full preterist...That's fine, I just assumed you hadn't worked that stuff out just yet...wouldn't mind conversing on those time texts and inconcistencies...really trying to look for a reason to believe it and can't yet...
     
  17. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    BTW, Mike...let me know if you get my PM...can't tell if it's working right...
     
  18. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hi Jen, I would have to ask you, what is holding back? Someone recently told me they used to read the Bible through a filter.... a futurist filter.... that's exactly how I used to read my Bible Jen.... now I read it through a past fulfilled filter! A preterist filter.... we need to read the scriptures through first century eyes.... not 21st century eyes.... we need to let the scripture speak for itself! Scripture interpret scripture! I've seen your posts and guess what? You don't sound like a futurist at all! By the way I like your posts!

    Cheers
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Why are 70 weeks determined? To do these things:
    1. to finish the transgression
    2. to make an end of sins
    3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
    4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
    5. to seal up the vision and prophecy
    6. to anoint the most Holy

    1. Finish the Transgression.
    Recall that to begin with, the Jews were in captivity for 490 years because of not honoring the Sabbath - they didn't give the land rest every seven years. The 70 years of capitivity in Babylon gave the land its rest. This is in 2 Chronicles 36- it's a whole lot of verses. Then God gives them another 490 years - maybe this time is their last chance.

    2. Make an End of Sins.
    Though we still sin, our sins no longer have power to prevent us from salvation. Jesus, by fulfilling the Law, ended sins strength. Sin is now utterly powerless.

    3. Make Reconciliation for Iniquity.
    Only Jesus could do this. He came to make reconciliation for us.

    4. Bring in Everlasting Righteousness
    Jesus Himself said that He fulfilled all righteousness.

    5. Seal up the Vision and Prophecy
    Contrary to what most teach about this passage, "seal up" doesn't mean to hide it from men's understanding until the last days. From Strong's, seal is [2856] chatham: meaning to close up, make an end of, stop. So Jesus made the end of this vision and prophecy. It doesn't say "all visions and prophecies" for you naysayers. It says "the vision..."

    6. Anoint the Most Holy
    Again, Jesus was anointed at His baptism in Mark 1. He is the Most Holy.

    Yes it was destroyed before Nero destroyed it. The temple destroyed in 70Ad was actually the 3rd temple built in Jerusalem. It is called the 2nd temple because it was a renovation of the 2nd temple, but the renovation was so vast that it really constituted a unique structure itself, 3rd in succession.

    Daniel prophesied in verse 25 that from the commandment to restore and rebuild Israel to the coming of the Messiah is 483 years. The question comes to "which decree is it?"

    Here are the decrees:

    The Decree of Cyrus - about 536 BC
    * Ezra 1:2-4 Cyrus sends folks out to build the temple.
    * The math: 536 - 483 = 53 BC.
    * Guess what? No Messiah in 53BC.

    The Decree of Artaxerxes - about 534 BC
    * Ezra 4:17-22 Artaxerxes' decree here is actually to stop building and wait, not to start.
    * Scratch that one.

    Haggai and Zechariah Prophesy
    * Ezra 5:1-3 Here Zerubbabel and Jeshua build, but no decree is mentioned.
    * Scratch that.

    Darius quotes Cyrus - about 520 BC
    * Ezra 6:1-5 Darius simply quotes Cyrus, but in vv. 6-12, Darius sends out a decree.
    * The math: 520 - 483 = 37 BC (some say 33BC...it's close enough I reckon).
    * Maybe this was when Theudas popped up?
    * Scratch this one, no Messiah.

    Ezra 6:14
    * "According to the commandment of God, of Cyrus, of Darius, and of Artaxerxes they builded and finished it."
    * But look carefully at the decree above of Artaxerxes. His decree was to stop building and wait.
    * So they couldn't have been talking about his decree.

    Decree of Artaxerxes - 458 BC
    * Ezra 7:12 - 26 Artaxerxes makes the decree.
    * The math: 483-458 = 25, but there was no 0 AD nor 0 BC, so that makes 26 AD.
    * What happened in 26 AD?

    Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

    Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


    Messiah the Prince came and the Spirit, like a dove, descended upon Him. So began the ministry of Jesus Christ.
    What is 483 + 7? 490 years. Simple.

    Jesus' first coming and ministry on this earth, through to His death, burial and resurrection and subsequent 3.5 year ministry to the Jews exclusively by the apostles, fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel completely.
     
  20. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    RE: First Century eyes

    I definitely try to read the Bible that way...I used to read it wholy futuristically, but now totally (I try) with first century eyes...Like I say, I believe some of the time text full preterists use for the Judgement Day/Resurrection Day may be up for debate, although I've yet to hear a concise view on many of those verses...
     
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