Faith: How does a person get it

[ChristServant]

Alright man,thanks for the friendly input throughout this thread.

Peace be with you brother always, in doing work to bring Honor and Glory to GOD.

 

[ChristServant]

Could you quote us scripture where it states a sacrament is needed to obtain faith in Christ?

Do let yourself get bogged down with doctrines because you will spent all you time chasing your tail(unfruitful) when you could be doing important work for GOD.

 

[All Glory To God]

I believe in a Merciful and Compassionate God, that those who die in the womb go to be with Him who created them.
i believe we are accountable for what we know in a sense, and for what we have and have not done. God knows each one of us and when we become aware of Him in creations testimony and how we respond to what we hear about Him as we grow and go through life.
Proverbs tells us even a child is known by the fruit of his life how he behaves.
I believe there is a time where a child does become accountable, and only God knows when that is for each of us. A baby in the womb I do not believe would have reached that point.

See that is an appeal to saving grace when you say ''those who die in the womb go to be with Him who created them'' so what happened to gospel principle?

You admit some people go to heaven without needing to hear the Gospel?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Could you quote us scripture where it states a sacrament is needed to obtain faith in Christ?

I don't know what "a sacrament is needed to obtain faith in Christ" means. So no, I can't provide that Scripture.

The term "sacrament" is the historic word used by the Western Church to describe the means of grace instituted by Christ for our benefit. The term merely indicates material actions of God, such as Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

Now, if you want Scripture to point out the meaning, significance, and purpose of the Sacraments, such as Baptism and the Lord's Supper, I can do that.

I think what is tripping you up here is the concept of a sacrament.

The definition Lutherans use goes back to St. Augustine, who says that a sacrament is God's word attached to a material or visible element. So, for example, Baptism is God's word attached to, connected to, water. The Eucharist is God's word attached to, connected to, bread and wine. It is God's word, comprehended in and with the material element that makes a Sacrament a Sacrament.

It is always God's word that is what matters. In the same way that the preaching of the Gospel is God's word being preached; Baptism is God's word with the water, which is why Paul says in Ephesians 5:26 that Christ has cleansed us by "the washing of water with the word". And so on.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Glory To God]

Peace be with you brother always, in doing work to bring Honor and Glory to GOD.

Amen to that.

 

[fhansen]

Well you are saying faith comes by knowledge, then go onto quote a part of the famous new covenant in Jeremiah

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will be their G0od, n; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


Gods law is written on the believers heart, why do they need to accumulate knowledge?

It's quite simple, they need to know God, the true God-or else they have nothing to believe in. That knowledge constitutes or forms the basis of a relationship or communion within which God now indwells us, and can be our God and "put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts." It's not some accumulation of head-knowledge; it's the knowing of God as per John 17:3

Anyway, faith doesn't exist in a vacuum; it has content, a real object, which is Jesus Christ, the express image of the God whom He personifies.

 

[GraceBro]

The Bible says unless a person believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour they are separated from God.

How exactly does this faith in Christ come about, from scripture. "Soul winners" will knock on people's door or go out street preaching the message "believe in Jesus" and I agree faith is needed. The question is: How do we do that? Specifically how can a lost person get faith in Jesus?

Faith is your response to the truth that God reveals to you. If you see a chair and have faith it will support your weight, your exercise of faith is to sit in the chair. When it comes to Jesus Christ, when you are presented with the idea that you are separated from God because you are spiritually dead in sin, you respond to His offer of the life of God, the Holy Spirit, by believing in Him.

 

[All Glory To God]

I don't know what "a sacrament is needed to obtain faith in Christ" means. So no, I can't provide that Scripture.

The term "sacrament" is the historic word used by the Western Church to describe the means of grace instituted by Christ for our benefit. The term merely indicates material actions of God, such as Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

Now, if you want Scripture to point out the meaning, significance, and purpose of the Sacraments, such as Baptism and the Lord's Supper, I can do that.

I think what is tripping you up here is the concept of a sacrament.

The definition Lutherans use goes back to St. Augustine, who says that a sacrament is God's word attached to a material or visible element. So, for example, Baptism is God's word attached to, connected to, water. The Eucharist is God's word attached to, connected to, bread and wine. It is God's word, comprehended in and with the material element that makes a Sacrament a Sacrament.

It is always God's word that is what matters. In the same way that the preaching of the Gospel is God's word being preached; Baptism is God's word with the water, which is why Paul says in Ephesians 5:26 that Christ has cleansed us by "the washing of water with the word". And so on.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not being tripped up by the meaning of a sacrament. Everyone in this thread has had no problem communicating with me.....apart from you. So if you say you can't understand me when I type '' Could you quote us scripture where it states a sacrament is needed to obtain faith in Christ?'' I'm going with the law of averages and say the communication problem is you.


I don't care what Lutheranism says, the OP is asking how (generally) do we believe in Christ,from the Bible. Going from that state of being lost and in darkness to light and saved. How does that happen?

 

[All Glory To God]

It's quite simple, they need to know God, the true God-or else they have nothing to believe in. That knowledge constitutes or forms the basis of a relationship or communion within which God now indwells us, and can be our God and "put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts." It's not some accumulation of head-knowledge; it's the knowing of God as per John 17:3

Anyway, faith doesn't exist in a vacuum; it has content, a real object, which is Jesus Christ, the express image of the God whom He personifies.

John 17 Is the High priests prayer. Jesus only prayers for his elect,he does not pray for the world. This can only mean not all people will be given the saving grace of God. Therefore,how can the non-elect have faith?


John 17:6-10
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

 

[fhansen]

John 17 Is the High priests prayer. Jesus only prayers for his elect,he does not pray for the world. This can only mean not all people will be given the saving grace of God. Therefore,how can the non-elect have faith?


John 17:6-10
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

However you want to put it and whoever you believe receives the gift of faith, that gift is necessarily directed towards revelation, knowledge that has been revealed. Without knowledge we perish; we know nothing apart from God.

 

[All Glory To God]

Faith is your response to the truth that God reveals to you. If you see a chair and have faith it will support your weight, your exercise of faith is to sit in the chair. When it comes to Jesus Christ, when you are presented with the idea that you are separated from God because you are spiritually dead in sin, you respond to His offer of the life of God, the Holy Spirit, by believing in Him.

So the state of an unsaved person is spiritually dead and yet they have life enough to choose almighty God?

 

[All Glory To God]

However you want to put it and whoever you believe receives the gift of faith, that gift is necessarily directed towards revelation, knowledge that has been revealed. Without knowledge we perish; we know nothing apart from God.

Well that's a pretty big step away from catholic teaching to concede that some people will not receive grace from God. Maybe you should consult your priest about this.

 

[fhansen]

Well that's a pretty big step away from catholic teaching to concede that some people will not receive grace from God. Maybe you should consult your priest about this.

I didn't concede that. I said that however one looks at it the point stands; faith is based on knowledge received.

 

[All Glory To God]

I didn't concede that. I said that however one looks at it the point stands; faith is based on knowledge received.

Faith is not based on knowledge. The Jeremiah scripture did not make sense because Gods laws are hardwired in us and the John scripture does not make sense because not everyone receive the benefit of this prayer.

As a side note,we are given a common knowledge of God though creation but it doesn't say it leads to faith.

 

[GraceBro]

So the state of an unsaved person is spiritually dead and yet they have life enough to choose almighty God?

Physical life and spiritual life are separate things.

 

[All Glory To God]

Physical life and spiritual life are separate things.

I agree.

 

[d taylor]

I am beginning to see why Catholics think protestants are stupid.

Many people are contributing and interested about faith in God and you need to pick on my words rather than accept he is the lord and saviour? Stupid protestant.

I have heard this used many times, just wanted to see your support from the Bible for this statement since you used it. Because if we are speaking of faith our faith must have the correct object. Jesus is Lord but is believing Jesus is Lord what gives eternal life.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

What is the will of the Father.
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Because i see in the Bible many times, that it is the name (The Christ/ The Messiah) of Jesus that He states, gives a person Eternal Life (salvation).

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ).

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not being tripped up by the meaning of a sacrament. Everyone in this thread has had no problem communicating with me.....apart from you. So if you say you can't understand me when I type '' Could you quote us scripture where it states a sacrament is needed to obtain faith in Christ?'' I'm going with the law of averages and say the communication problem is you.

The question presumed that the Sacraments are obstacles, things that need to be done in order to attain something--such as faith. The point is that this just isn't the case. The Sacraments aren't works done in order to attain something. They are simply means through which God works.

I don't care what Lutheranism says,

You are going to get a Lutheran answer from Lutherans. The same as you are going to get Baptist answers from Baptists, Methodist answers from Methodists, Catholic answers from Catholics, etc.

the OP is asking how (generally) do we believe in Christ,from the Bible. Going from that state of being lost and in darkness to light and saved. How does that happen?

Which has already been addressed: Faith is God's free gift, the means through which God gives us faith, works faith in us to believe in Christ, is exactly as Scripture says: by the word. God's word creates faith, that's what it does. St. Paul says that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ", that the passive sinner hears the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit through that very Gospel being preached, converts us, works faith in us, gives us faith, makes us believers, as grace, as a free and pure gift.

God's word is given through preaching, it is also found there in the Sacraments. That's why I am trying to communicate what it means to speak of "Sacraments". These are not performances, works, things we do for God; they are means through which God works, they are His works, His operation. The Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ broken and shed for me, I'm not doing anything here, I am merely receiving what Christ gives: His flesh and blood. In the same way that when the preacher preaches, and Christ gives His word here, I am merely the passive recipient--God speaks, God acts, God works. God takes me, a sinner, helpless and totally unable in the sinfulness of my flesh to do anything of merit to God, and gives me faith, takes the perfect work of Jesus Christ and applies it to me. So that, as a baptized person, I have been born again (John 3:5), crucified, buried, and raised with Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-12), have been clothed with Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27), having been cleansed by Christ by the washing of water with the word (Ephesians 5:26). So that, through Baptism, I have faith, I have can therefore point to outside of myself, to Christ, and to Christ alone, to God's grace. And the faith itself is from outside of myself, it is from God, as pure gift (Ephesians 2:8).

I can not point to myself, to anything I have said, done, thought, felt, or even believed--I can only point outside of myself, to Jesus Christ and what He has done. And I am merely the unworthy recipient of these good things by the grace of God who accomplishes and gives me all of this as pure and unfettered grace, through His own ordered and established means: Word and Sacrament.

I am therefore the possession of Jesus Christ for Christ has taken possession of me by His own word and work. And if I belong to Christ, then I belong to God, and the Spirit Himself lives in me by which I can confess Christ the Lord, and cry out to God the Father in faith: "Abba! Father!" for I am adopted by grace, born again by grace, made a new creation by grace. All apart from myself, from outside of myself, by the work of God alone, by the grace of God alone. By Christ alone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fhansen]

Faith is not based on knowledge. The Jeremiah scripture did not make sense because Gods laws are hardwired in us and the John scripture does not make sense because not everyone receive the benefit of this prayer.

As a side note,we are given a common knowledge of God though creation but it doesn't say it leads to faith.

I already affirmed that I'm not talking about common knowledge, or head knowledge, even though knowledge of creation does, in fact, support our faith by the use of reason, giving "motives of credibility" as they're sometimes called. Either way faith is absolutely based on knowledge. And you only prove my point that knowledge is critical since your theology is novel and confused.

The knowledge I'm speaking of is direct, immediate, spiritual, and in seedling form to begin with.

 

[bling]

Half right there Bling.

The saving gift of God is not assisted,it works by itself without any effort or cooperation from the person receiving the gift. A one party transaction,which is God bestowing a love gift of salvation to his chosen creation.

Accepting the gift as pure undeserved charity is not “assisting” in any way, the providing of the gift, all the glory goes to God. A person refuses the charity takes nothing away from God who is offering the charity, but if you say: “God does not offer the charity to everyone”, then you do take glory away from God, because His glory is in His great Love which is now belittled.