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Featured Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by EternallyKeptByJesus, Apr 26, 2018.

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  1. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    I heard a sermon in church just yesterday where the pastor said that the holy Spirit convicts a believer of sin. It threw me off a little bit, to be honest.
     
  2. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    LOL
    What do you think the Holy Spirit's job is anyway???
     
  3. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    John 16:8-14 KJV.
    "8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

    The Biblical answer is to reprove of unbelief, righteousness, and judgement. And to guide into all truth.

    It doesn't seem to say anything about "convicting believers of their sins."
     
  4. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    There are so many like I said I could go through many books and show where God speaks to believers and warns them rebukes them, convicts them, God does this to believers and God himself works in every believer. When a believer is tempted to walk after the flesh and carnal mind. God also works in him to draw him away and to show what sin is. He has to yield to the Spirit and not the flesh. It is only through the work of the Spirit in believers that we can mortify the deeds of the body and crucify the flesh.

    here are a few verses that says this

    "13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

    Romans 6:16
    "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

    We have a war going on in us between the flesh and the Spirit. This is why we need the daily cross and to die daily.

    Galatians 5:17
    "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

    2 Corinthians 7:1
    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."


    And it is God that works in us to make us perfect unto every good work. he also works in us to show what is right and wrong and to reprove, convict and convince us of anything we do that is wrong. That is why our conscience is also there to bear witness. The Light shines in our hearts to manifest what we do and to reprove all things and our conscience also bears witness.

    But when we abide in Christ we sin not, as we walk in a clean conscience and do God's will from a heart of faith Christ is working in us and cleaning us from all unrighteousness. But if we yield to the flesh we die and if we do not walk in the word of God in our hearts and the light that shines in us then we will be reproved by the word and the light and the light REPROVES (convicts and convinces) all things, yes ALL things So we are exposed as a sinner when we walk away from God and we see God uses many ways to do this. Paul warned believers and told them to repent of their sins

    Also the Spirit of God speaks to believers of the danger of allowing sin in them and being hardened to God and then having an evil heart of unbelief.

    Hebrews 3:12
    "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

    So if God is working in believers and there is a danger of an evil heart of unbelief this shows the battle inward.
     
  5. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Psalms 69:28
     
  6. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    As far as the believer is concerned:
    Spirit convicts us of righteousness, not sin.
    He comforts us in our tribulation. After all He is the Comforter. John 14:26 The Greek word for comforter is the same word used in 1 John 2:1 for Advocate.
    He is our Guide. Isaiah 30:20-21
    Also, if you look at Psalm 139:23-24 you will see the Psalmist asking God to examine his heart and then to lead him.
    Note he does not ask that God would reveal his wickedness to him, he just wants to be led.
    So you think God shows you what is wrong? Is that so you can figure out the best way to deal with it? Proverbs 3:5-6 and 14:12 I think should sufficiently answer that.
     
  7. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Holy Spirit is our paraclete. He walks beside us and empowers us for the life given to us by Christ and for service to Christ and man.

    The Holy Spirit also sheds light on what sinners we truly are...
    Romans 7:24
    It is HIS work that brings us to the awareness of our need to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus and so that we can clearly see our sins.

    He makes us aware of our moral choice to follow Jesus and obey Him or not.
    Isaiah 35:8
    1 Peter 1:15-16

    So, yes, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and helps us to overcome.
    Acts 15:8-9

    The Holy Spirit is also our comforter, He helps us to understand God's word, He helps us to know God better and better, He makes us feel God's love.
     
  8. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can believe what you will DM.
    I can't take time to argue out everything with you.
    I studied theology and taught this stuff to kids.
    Not EVERYTHING about our faith is found in the bible.
    It took theologians to figure some things out.
    That's all I'll say.
     
  9. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    If you don’t feel conviction of sin then that is definitely something to worry about my friend.
     
  10. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    This is Romans 7:24
    Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
    How does this verse say what you say it does?
    These are the 2 verses you cited.
    And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but is shall be for [the redeemed]: the wayfaring men, yea fools, shall not err [therein].

    15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living; 16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.

    How do these 2 verses prove your point?
    Here is Acts 15:8-9
    15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
    15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    At this point I am just confused. How do these verses prove what you are saying?
    I gave verses that showed exactly what I was saying, no qualifying needed at all, and you disregard it and then when you want to prove your point you bring up verses totally unrelated.
     
  11. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Romans 7:24
    Did you know you were a wretched man before you were saved?
    I don't think so.
    The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin.
    In fact, the closer you get to God, the more you're aware of sin.

    No verse. Sorry.
     
  12. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    That was almost a good scripture to post for your argument, but when a person actually reads the Psalm in context, we realize that it doesn't support the loss of salvation one bit, even though you try and quote it in support of your argument.

    This Psalm is David speaking about his enemies, and is also a future prophecy of Jesus Christ being persecuted and hated by the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews of his day.

    Psalm 69:25-28 "Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

    So the context of the Psalm clearly proves that the people he wants blotted out of the book of life are not even saved to begin with, because they haven't come into the righteousness of the Lord based upon verse 27.

    This is more of a verse about David wanting those who are his enemies to become reprobates (meaning they're not save-able because their hearts are hardened), which means the Lord blots their name out of the book of life before they ever even die.

    Because we know that judgement happens to a person when we die (Hebrews 9:27) where we stand before the throne of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10). It is at that point in which a person who is unbelieving gets blotted out of the book of life and cast into hell. However, reprobates are even worse because they get blotted out before they're ever even dead, according to Romans 1.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  13. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    I agree with much of what you said, but there is some I do not.

    Acts 15:8-9 is not proof of the Holy Spirit convicting us of our sins (as in, making us aware of every sin we commit as believers), but instead is proof of the Holy Spirit reproving those talked about in the passage of their unbelief, which caused them to be purified by the faith they came to accept.

    I agree that the Holy Spirit reproves the world of unbelief; that's what the passage in John 16 says, which was my whole point. It doesn't, however, reprove of every little sin - the Word of God does, because the law was manifested that we should know sin (Romans 7:7).
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  14. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No, the verse can relate to those who once had eternal life as sheep of Jesus and were blotted out. We see that from this section as quoted below and from Acts 1 in connection to this to Judas who was one of Jesus sheep he sent to the lost sheep and gave them all power over unclean spirits and who had their names written in heaven. The 70 and the 12 as scripture strongly implies. here are a few verses. The verse you quoted in Psalms 69 does not say that they were never in His righteousness. In vs 28 it shows that the ones who are in the book of the living are the righteous, These ones are blotted out of that book (implying that they were once with the righteous in that book only the righteous in faith are in that book.) then they are blotted out. This whole section from vs 25-28 is speaking about Judas as well as other s who did not believe. They shall not come into (future tense) come into His righteousness. For only in the righteousness of Christ is their salvation through faith.

    "25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. 26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."(Psalms 69:25-28 King James Bible)

    and connecting this Psalm to Judas we read.

    "16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take...25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."(Acts 1:16-20,25 KJV)

    Notice in the NT the word "his" is used refering to Judas and in Psalms 69 "their" and "them is used, plural. So there may also be two groups refered to here. Judas was we also read that Moses asked God to blot his name out of the book and God said he would blot out those who have sinned

    "
    Exodus 32:33
    And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."


    we also see believers and all the churches are warned of the danger of being blotted out of the book here

    "2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
    3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
    4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
    5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
     
  15. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What if the word of God is not read?
    Are you saying the written word is more powerful than the Holy Spirit?
     
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    They aren't.

    But why are persons who believe in OSNAS so willing to not believe what Jesus said about eternal security?
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I asked, in reference to conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish:
    "Why didn't Jesus say that in John 10:28?"
    That's right. Asleep at the switch.

    I'll just tiptoe out so as not to disturb you.
     
  18. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No, never said that or implied that and that straw man fallacy argument won't work here.

    the old man who walks in darkness and flesh and sin is not abiding in the light of Christ and is not living as the new creation. In Christ I can do all things only as I yield to the Spirit not the flesh. We are told in scripture that we must guard our heart. The Spirit of God shows us all things and guides us into all truth. he also shows us what is not of the truth. How do you suppose Paul was able to expose heresies and false doctrine and John and Peter and others?

    The true Light, lighteth every man that cometh into the world. The first work of the light is to expose sin and reprove and rebukes and convinces of sin. As a person comes to Christ who is the Light, they are now enlightened and if they don't understand anything the Spirit of God will shine the light of God in their hearts and show all things. But if they are not yielding to the Spirit and instead to the flesh they light will reprove them of that sin as well. For as I have been showing , all things that are reproved ( convicted, convinced, rebuked etc) are made manifest ( revealed0 by the light

    Ephesians 5:13 KJV
    "But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light."

    and Paul, who walked in the light and was shown many things about his own life and what sin was in the camp among believers told others to walk in this light and to reprove, rebuke and exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

    2 Timothy 4:2
    Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine."


    As believers hear the word of reproof, and rebuke from the Spirit. The witness is in themselves and the light of the word shines and convicts and convinces them if they are in sin and error and if they are not in the truth . They don't need rebuke of sin if they abide in Christ. But they are warned of the dangers of sin and the many false doctrines and evils that come to test and try them. They also have a war in their members and between their flesh and Spirit and need to yield to the Spirit and die daily.

    If they hear the word of reproof and rebuke ( convincing and convicting) the believers don't hear it as the word of men but as the word of God which effectually worketh in those that believe, as scripture clearly teaches

    1 Thessalonians 2:13
    "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.:"

    and Jesus tells believers to continue in his word. The word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart..

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

    Psalm 51:6
    Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom."

    Proverbs 20:27
    The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly."

    "14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."(Romans 2:14-16 KJV)

    1 Chronicles 28:9
    And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."


     
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I believe that every person who believes that salvation can be lost does NOT believe what Jesus said in John 10:28, which is about eternal security.

    Please don't kid yourself. There's been many churches that always believed in eternal security.

    Through the centuries there's been many different groups of believers, not just one "Christian Church" as you seem to think.

    Many don't believe what Jesus taught, but many did.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Yeah, I'd say not believing what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28 is insane. Exactly.
     
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