Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[BNR32FAN]

Even LUTHER didn't believe in OSAS.
Here's something I posted in a different thread...


Luther:

Luther believed that regeneration occurred through the waters of baptism. "But," noted the Reformer, "all of us do not remain with our baptism. Many fall away from Christ and become false Christians." [21] In his commentary on 2 Pet 2:22 he writes as follows on apostates in the Church: "Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief and their own works, and they soil themselves again in filth." [22]

One who has experienced the justifying grace of God through faith can lose that justification through unbelief or false confidence in works. "Indeed,
even the righteous man," writes Luther in his comments on Gal 5:4, "if he presumes to be justified by those works, loses the righteousness he has and falls from the grace by which he had been justified, since he has been removed from a good land to one that is barren." [23]

Source: The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine by John Jefferson Davis (1991 JETS)

Actually I was referring to faith alone but eternal security which was John Calvin’s idea is also false. John 10:27-28 and John 3:36 deal with both these teachings.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I care nothing for what Martin Luther thought. He continued to believe in baptismal regeneration and baptized babies, thinking they were saved by doing that.

What he did get right is that justification is by grace through faith. Not by works.

Your comment indicates that you don't believe what Jesus taught in John 10:28.

Let’s just get this straight I believe everything that is written in the Bible. You just refuse to admit what verse 27 implies because that would prove you wrong. There’s no way this is about not understanding this is about you refusing to admit your mistake.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus taught that if you don't obey Him, you will see the wrath of God.
John 3:36
John 3:18-21 JESUS speaking

Absolutely true. But you haven't proven that "wrath" means a lot of things, not just ending up in hell.

John 10:28 must be taken in context.
What is the context?
"and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand".

To whom does Jesus give eternal life? Who are THEY and who are THEM?

Really simple. The "they" and "them" are His sheep, from the description in v.27.

And way back in v.9 Jesus explained how to be saved (be one of His sheep); by "entering through Him", meaning faith in Him, obviously. Do you disagree?

Verse 27 tells us:

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

Verse 27 sets the CONDITIONS for who are Jesus' sheep.

Wrong. 10:9 did that. v.27 is a description of them, not a condition for being one.

Maybe your native Italian language is getting in the way of your understanding.

It DOES require conditions to be His sheep:

1. His sheep HEAR his voice.
They pray, they worship Jesus, they learn from His teachings, etc. They HEAR and they LISTEN.

2. His sheep KNOW Him. They know Him just as Joseph KNEW Mary --- in an intimate way. There exists an intimacy between Jesus and His sheep. They don't only know ABOUT Him, they actually know Him, as you would know anyone intimately.

3. His sheep FOLLOW Him.
Jesus' sheep follow Him, they are disciples. (John 6:68)
Disciples learn from Him and they believe in Him and thus obey Him. I don't need any Greek lexicon to know that if I believe in someone I will also obey them. Believe in the Greek means much more than believe in the English -- I think you know this.

So show the exact language in v.27 that means "condition". Such as "if..." or "as long as...". That's how a condition is stated, in case you just didn't know all that.

So, the above explains who Jesus' sheep are.

If you STOP HEARING, KNOWING and FOLLOWING Him, you are no longer one of His sheep.

And which verse makes this claim? Oh, right. No verse makes this claim.

You'll notice that HEAR, KNOW and FOLLOW are all in the present tense. We must be hearing, knowing and following Jesus at the end of our life. We must have endured to the end.

Your desperation leads you to conflate several verses from different contexts in order to defend your claim.

Jesus gives eternal life to HIS SHEEP...those LIVING, present tense, a life of faith. Nothing can snatch us out of His hand as in John 10:29 EXCEPT for ourselves...WE can stop having faith, we can stop hearing, knowing and following Him --- we can stop having the conditions that save us.

And which verse gives us this "except" routine? Oh right. You've had to add it to Scripture in order for your theology to work.

But no verse supports your claims.

The conditions are plainly found in John 10:27

Ha. None are found. And your claim is empty. v.27 is a description, not a condition for anything.

Jesus most assuredly has contitions, and these are the conditions.

Of course He does.

In order to possess (HAVE) eternal life, one MUST BELIEVE.
John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47. Do you believe this? Or are you going to stick with your sheep thing?

In order to never perish, He MUST GIVE eternal life. John 10:28

But you don't believe what Jesus said. I know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually I was referring to faith alone but eternal security which was John Calvin’s idea is also false. John 10:27-28 and John 3:36 deal with both these teachings.

When in the world are you guys going to find any verse that teaches that salvation can be lost? I mean a really clear verse that says so plainly?
Instead, we have John 10:28, that is the most clear verse on eternal security in the Bible.

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let’s just get this straight I believe everything that is written in the Bible.

No you don't. You believe that believes CAN perish. Unlike what Jesus promised.

You just refuse to admit what verse 27 implies because that would prove you wrong.

v.27 implies NOTHING. It is a verse of description only.

There’s no way this is about not understanding this is about you refusing to admit your mistake.

The mistakes being committed on this forum is the claim that salvation can be lost.

Such claims dishonor Jesus and what He so clearly taught.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let’s just get this straight I believe everything that is written in the Bible. You just refuse to admit what verse 27 implies because that would prove you wrong. There’s no way this is about not understanding this is about you refusing to admit your mistake.

I also agree salvation is not earned by works.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No you don't. You believe that believes CAN perish. Unlike what Jesus promised.


v.27 implies NOTHING. It is a verse of description only.


The mistakes being committed on this forum is the claim that salvation can be lost.

Such claims dishonor Jesus and what He so clearly taught.

Yes describing His sheep. Exactly like John 3:36. Those who hear, follow, and obey are His sheep and have eternal life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No you don't. You believe that believes CAN perish. Unlike what Jesus promised.


v.27 implies NOTHING. It is a verse of description only.


The mistakes being committed on this forum is the claim that salvation can be lost.

Such claims dishonor Jesus and what He so clearly taught.

Yet the all Christian churches taught that salvation can be lost for the first 1500 years. We’re they all wrong?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Absolutely true. But you haven't proven that "wrath" means a lot of things, not just ending up in hell.


Really simple. The "they" and "them" are His sheep, from the description in v.27.

And way back in v.9 Jesus explained how to be saved (be one of His sheep); by "entering through Him", meaning faith in Him, obviously. Do you disagree?

Wrong. 10:9 did that. v.27 is a description of them, not a condition for being one.

Maybe your native Italian language is getting in the way of your understanding.


So show the exact language in v.27 that means "condition". Such as "if..." or "as long as...". That's how a condition is stated, in case you just didn't know all that.


And which verse makes this claim? Oh, right. No verse makes this claim.


Your desperation leads you to conflate several verses from different contexts in order to defend your claim.


And which verse gives us this "except" routine? Oh right. You've had to add it to Scripture in order for your theology to work.

But no verse supports your claims.


Ha. None are found. And your claim is empty. v.27 is a description, not a condition for anything.


Of course He does.

In order to possess (HAVE) eternal life, one MUST BELIEVE.
John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47. Do you believe this? Or are you going to stick with your sheep thing?

In order to never perish, He MUST GIVE eternal life. John 10:28

But you don't believe what Jesus said. I know.

In a previous thread, I started all the way back at John 10:2.
My native tongue is English.
You think Italians write like this?
All I've posted is not for you but for those reading along.
New Christians that need to know the TRUTH.
YOU do not possess the truth.
Just because someone walked down a church aisle years ago does NOT mean they are saved today.
ALL the language in the bible is in present tense.
We must believe TODAY
We must hear TODAY
We must follow TODAY,
NOT years ago.

Anyone reading the N.T. with a clear mind that does not come to the bible with presuppositions and incorrect doctrine will understand this.

I will no longer be responding to you.

Oh. And YOU brought up who I might be, NOT ME.
I don't care if you know or not. What I care about is all the incorrect doctrine you post.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ha. I have explained v.27 as well. But those who try to force some kind of "condition" for never perishing in v.28, have failed to show that. Because the language doesn't allow such an understanding.

If the lifestyle of "following Him" were a condition for never perishing, then receiving eternal life wouldn't be.

But v.28 doesn't allow for any conditions other than simply receiving eternal life.

Those who have a solid grip on language and are honest all know this.

If following Him were a condition, then Jesus would have said this in v.28:
"I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and IF... OR AS LONG AS... they keep following Me, they shall never perish."

Now, THAT'S a condition for never perishing.

But, as Jesus said it, the ONLY condition for never perishing is being given eternal life.

Any other argument does a face plant. On cement. Dry cement.

Actually the word is follow not followed indicating that a person must be presently following Him to be His sheep. So no it doesn’t indicate that they don’t receive eternal life by that example.

 

[FreeGrace2]

BNR32FAN said: ↑
Let’s just get this straight I believe everything that is written in the Bible. You just refuse to admit what verse 27 implies because that would prove you wrong. There’s no way this is about not understanding this is about you refusing to admit your mistake.

I also agree salvation is not earned by works.

Talking to yourself, huh.

But, while you may agree thta salvation is not earned by works, you certainly also believe that it is maintained by works.

You know, without your list of conditions, salvation is lost.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes describing His sheep. Exactly like John 3:36. Those who hear, follow, and obey are His sheep and have eternal life.

OK, show me just one verse that says eternal life is given on the basis of following.

Bluff.called.

 

[Doug Melven]

There are no verses about eternal security, when they are properly taken in the context of other verses (Isaiah 28:9-10) which show that there are conditions for us not perishing (e.g. Luke 13:3).

What about these?
1 Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

2 Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

3 Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

4 Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

5 Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them
6 Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

7 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Notice the 2 different believe's in this verse. The first one gives us eternal life. We possess it. We also need to believe for blessings. Not continue to believe to get something we already possess.

8 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

9 John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Yet some people think Jesus will cast us out or cut us off from eternal life.

10 Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

11 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
You don't belong to you anymore. Once you were joined to the LORD, you belong to Him now.

12 2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

13 Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

14 Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Because He is always with us we should do these 2 things.

15 1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"LoveofTruth said: ↑
1 Corinthians 14:24
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:"

If an unbeliever comes in, or an unlearned, not a believer.

So yes the Spirit reproves and convicts of all sin.

What you have is people convicting other people. You do not show the Spirit convicting believers.

There are many. To many to list there.

And yet you failed to list even one that shows the Spirit convicting believers.

Where, in the entire bible, does it say we are not required to obey? I'm not speaking about being under the Law, I'm speaking about obeying...
John 14:21

We obey because we are saved, not to get or stay saved. That is a huge difference.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
No you don't. You believe that believes CAN perish. Unlike what Jesus promised.


v.27 implies NOTHING. It is a verse of description only.


The mistakes being committed on this forum is the claim that salvation can be lost.

Such claims dishonor Jesus and what He so clearly taught.

Yet the all Christian churches taught that salvation can be lost for the first 1500 years. We’re they all wrong?

Yes, all who believe that salvation can be lost dishonor Jesus and His words. They are WRONG. Absolutely wrong.

Who cares what 1500 years of sloppy thinking led to? I care what the Bible SAYS.

And the Bible SAYS that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Which is what I believe.

 

[GodsGrace101]

We obey because we are saved, not to get or stay saved. That is a huge difference.

We obey to stay saved.
John 3:36

 

[FreeGrace2]

In a previous thread, I started all the way back at John 10:2.
My native tongue is English.

That's nice. So is mine.

You think Italians write like this?

I don't really care how Italians write.

All I've posted is not for you but for those reading along.
New Christians that need to know the TRUTH.

Which is why I post; to refute the false doctrines out there.

YOU do not possess the truth.

I possess what Jesus taught. Are you insinuating that Jesus is a liar?

Just because someone walked down a church aisle years ago does NOT mean they are saved today.

I totally agree with this. I've NEVER agreed that walking down any aisle saves anyone.

Neither does repeating a prayer that someone else is praying or reciting.

The ONLY way to be saved is what Paul told the jailer: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

No aisles, no prayers, no hands in the air. Just believe.

ALL the language in the bible is in present tense.

Once again you know not what you speak.

There are many tenses in the Bible. I thought you knew some Greek expert? Why don't you run that beauty by him/her for analysis.

We must believe TODAY

In order to never perish. Ever.

We must hear TODAY
We must follow TODAY,
NOT years ago.

Well, gots news for ya. The aorist tense refutes the notions in your noggin.

Paul's answer to the jailer was to 'believe' in the aorist tense. That's past tense, my dear.

And when Jesus told the woman at Jacob's well to drink the water He gives, he also used the aorist tense.

So please don't tell me that "all the language in the Bible is present tense".

That is just laughable. And wrong.

Anyone reading the N.T. with a clear mind that does not come to the bible with presuppositions and incorrect doctrine will understand this.

Then why do you do that?

I will no longer be responding to you.

Since you don't believe what Jesus said, no problem. I much prefer talking to those who are actually interested in truth.

Oh. And YOU brought up who I might be, NOT ME.

Still bugging you, huh.

I don't care if you know or not. What I care about is all the incorrect doctrine you post.

The incorrect doctine is yours, lady. Which I've proved by what Jesus SAID. And you've obviously rejected.

 

[BNR32FAN]

BNR32FAN said: ↑
Let’s just get this straight I believe everything that is written in the Bible. You just refuse to admit what verse 27 implies because that would prove you wrong. There’s no way this is about not understanding this is about you refusing to admit your mistake.

Talking to yourself, huh.

But, while you may agree thta salvation is not earned by works, you certainly also believe that it is maintained by works.

You know, without your list of conditions, salvation is lost.

No sir it is achieved by being born again and maintained by walking in the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually the word is follow not followed indicating that a person must be presently following Him to be His sheep. So no it doesn’t indicate that they don’t receive eternal life by that example.

It doesn't indicate any such thing. Apparently you are quite unfamiliar with the English language. Conditions are always introduced by "if..." or "as long as...". That sort of wording. v.27 is a description only. Not any kind of condition.

If Jesus had added what you think is a condition for never perishing, then He would have said so.

"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they presently follow Me, they shall never perish."

Now, that's a condition. But Jesus said nothing of the sort.

He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to never perish.

I can hardly believe I have to keep reminding some folk of this very simple and obvious fact.

I recommend that you review the meaning of 'description' and 'condition'.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We obey to stay saved.
John 3:36

Wow. Saved by faith. Kept by works. Interesting. But wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No sir it is achieved by being born again and maintained by walking in the Spirit.

Why didn't Jesus say that in John 10:28?