WOF and Eternal Security???

[RocK Guy]

I spent the early part of my walk with the Lord in WOF churches and they used to teach that one could actually lose their salvation, but now I've noticed some of the big time WOF preachers are now teaching eternal security / OSAS

But then again many of these same preachers are involved in the ecumenical movement.

So does all WOF people now believe in eternal security or have the big name WOF preachers fallen away from God's Word since we are in the end times and the falling away is growing in leaps and bounds?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Eternal security is a sticky one. There are solid arguments on both sides. However, I have noticed that not a few are leaning more toward the "security of the believer." If I recall, E. W. Kenyon leaned that way, too.
None that I know of go so far as "live like hell and still go to heaven." More like "you are more secure in your salvation then the lost are in their damnation." God is better at keeping His than the devil is at keeping his.
I seem to recall a Hagin vision that told of a woman who was saved, but she opted to go back into the world and the love of the world... she was lost because of it. I think it was in the "I Believe in Visions" book. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Eternal security is a sticky one. There are solid arguments on both sides. However, I have noticed that not a few are leaning more toward the "security of the believer." If I recall, E. W. Kenyon leaned that way, too.
None that I know of go so far as "live like hell and still go to heaven." More like "you are more secure in your salvation then the lost are in their damnation." God is better at keeping His than the devil is at keeping his.
I seem to recall a Hagin vision that told of a woman who was saved, but she opted to go back into the world and the love of the world... she was lost because of it. I think it was in the "I Believe in Visions" book. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

The story:
"
Now i will show you how these evil spirit get ahold of people when they are allowed to," suddenly in the vision i saw a woman. I immediately recognized her as being the former wife of a minister.

"This woman was a child of mine," the Lord said. "She was in the ministry with her husband. She was filled with the Holy Spirit, and the gift of the Spirit were operating in her life.

One day an evil spirit came to her and whisper in her ear, 'You are a beautiful woman. You could have had fame, popularity, and wealth, but you have been cheated in life by following in the Christian walk.'
the woman realized that this was an evil spirit and she said, "Get thee behind me, Satan.' the evil spirit left her for a period.

By and by thesame evil spirit returned. He sat on her shoulder spiritually, and whisper in her ear, 'You are a beautiful woman, but you have been robbed by taking this lowly walk of Christianity and living a separated life.'

Again she recognized this as Satan and said, 'Satan, i resist you in the name of Jesus,' and the evil spirit left her for a while.

"But the evil spirit came back again and sat on her shoulder, whispering thesame words to her. This time she began to entertain these thoughts, for she like to think she was beautiful. As she began to think along the lines the devil suggested to her, she became obsessed with that thinking."

Then in the vision I saw the woman become as transparent as glass, and i saw a black dot in her mind.
"That dot represent the fact that she is obsessed in her thinking with this evil spirit,"

The Lord said, "At first she was oppressed on the outside, but as she allowed the devil's suggestion to take ahold of her thoughts, her mind became obsessed. She wanted to think, 'i am a beautiful woman. I could have wealth and popularity, but i have been robbed in life.'

But still, it wasn't too late for her, she could have resisted the devil; she could have refused to think those thoughts.
Then the evil spirit would have fled from her, and she would have remained free. But she chosoe otherwise.

"Finally, she left her husband and went into the world, seeking the fame and wealth which the devil offered. She took up with one man after another. After a time that thing got down into her spirit."

In the vision i saw the black dot move from her head to her heart, and then the woman said, "i don't want the Lord anymore. Just leave me alone."

I said, "Lord, why are you showing this to me? Do you want me to pray for this woman? Do you want me to cast the devil out of her?"

"No, I don't want you to pray and cast the devil out of her,"
The Lord answered, "because you couldn't anyway.
She wants that evil spirit, and as long as she wants it, she can have it.""

https://www.facebook.com/FAITHDOCUMENTARYLIFE/photos/a.127774875809318/216773890242749

 

[RocK Guy]

There are solid arguments on both sides.

Not when one accepts the whole counsel of God.

To hold the eternal security position one has to hold on to a few happy verses and then ignore or explain away the rest of the Word of God. There are warnings through out God's Word that easily prove osas is not true.

When a preacher tells people it's not possible for one to lose their salvation then it leads to lasciviousness as this is changing God's grace from what God's Word says God's grace is:

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Concerning word of faith teaching, if one is playing around with sin they certainly are not walking in faith!

They used to teach this, but I guess the good WOF teachers are all gone.

 

[RocK Guy]

"No, I don't want you to pray and cast the devil out of her,"
The Lord answered, "because you couldn't anyway.
She wants that evil spirit, and as long as she wants it, she can have it.""

Yep, I've run across a lot of people like this and a lot of them claim to be Christians too.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Not when one accepts the whole counsel of God.

To hold the eternal security position one has to hold on to a few happy verses and then ignore or explain away the rest of the Word of God. There are warnings through out God's Word that easily prove osas is not true.

When a preacher tells people it's not possible for one to lose their salvation then it leads to lasciviousness as this is changing God's grace from what God's Word says God's grace is:

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Concerning word of faith teaching, if one is playing around with sin they certainly are not walking in faith!

They used to teach this, but I guess the good WOF teachers are all gone.

Is salvation a gift from God or a reward that can be earned? Both groups believe that salvation is a gift from God and cannot be earned through works. If it is a gift from God and cannot be earned through works, how can it be lost through our actions?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Someone offers a gift to anyone who wants it.
To receive the free gift, you simply have to take it; it is yours. But read the fine print. To keep the gift, you have to do 443,409 push-ups today and every day. You may even try to do all those push-ups and maybe even talk yourself into the notion that you actually accomplished them. But in the end, you are just kidding yourself.
.
In order to be saved, you have to believe. Faith in the gospel. Some have added fine print: To keep it, you must be "perfect as your Father in heaven. You will never accomplish this in your life. Nobody has. Nobody will. Some face this quandary and must work it out. If you are going to go down that road of faith plus works, then you better start working on the"perfect-as-your-Father-in-heaven" clause in the contract because that is the work you have to accomplish. Some kid themselves into thinking that they have accomplished this requirement. What is worse, they attempt to impose it on others. Others may believe you and, being more honest, will know the task's impossibility and, sadly, give up.
Let me suggest that we do not even know all the imperfections that foul our being. I have been on this path for 53 years, and the older I get, the more convinced I am. You cannot even confess them all because you do not know them all. If I am aware of a sin... then I confess it by name and believe I am forgiven and cleansed. But there is evidence in the scripture that we do not know all the deeper, unnamed sins that plague us.
I pray the blanket prayer of acknowledgment of my failures and flesh.

1 John 1:7 KJV
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[Richard T]

The story:
"Now I will show you how these evil spirit get a hold of people when they are allowed to,"
suddenly in the vision I saw a woman. I immediately recognized her as being the former wife of a minister.

"This woman was a child of mine," the Lord said. "She was in the ministry with her husband. She was filled with the Holy Spirit, and the gift of the Spirit were operating in her life.

One day an evil spirit came to her and whisper in her ear, 'You are a beautiful woman. You could have had fame, popularity, and wealth, but you have been cheated in life by following in the Christian walk.'
the woman realized that this was an evil spirit and she said, "Get thee behind me, Satan.' the evil spirit left her for a period.

By and by the same evil spirit returned. He sat on her shoulder spiritually, and whisper in her ear, 'You are a beautiful woman, but you have been robbed by taking this lowly walk of Christianity and living a separated life.'

Again she recognized this as Satan and said, 'Satan, I resist you in the name of Jesus,' and the evil spirit left her for a while.

"But the evil spirit came back again and sat on her shoulder, whispering the same words to her. This time she began to entertain these thoughts, for she like to think she was beautiful. As she began to think along the lines the devil suggested to her, she became obsessed with that thinking."

Then in the vision I saw the woman become as transparent as glass, and i saw a black dot in her mind.
"That dot represent the fact that she is obsessed in her thinking with this evil spirit,"

The Lord said, "At first she was oppressed on the outside, but as she allowed the devil's suggestion to take ahold of her thoughts, her mind became obsessed. She wanted to think, 'i am a beautiful woman. I could have wealth and popularity, but i have been robbed in life.'

But still, it wasn't too late for her, she could have resisted the devil; she could have refused to think those thoughts.
Then the evil spirit would have fled from her, and she would have remained free. But she chosoe otherwise.

"Finally, she left her husband and went into the world, seeking the fame and wealth which the devil offered. She took up with one man after another. After a time that thing got down into her spirit."

In the vision i saw the black dot move from her head to her heart, and then the woman said, "i don't want the Lord anymore. Just leave me alone."

I said, "Lord, why are you showing this to me? Do you want me to pray for this woman? Do you want me to cast the devil out of her?"

"No, I don't want you to pray and cast the devil out of her,"
The Lord answered, "because you couldn't anyway.
She wants that evil spirit, and as long as she wants it, she can have it.""

https://www.facebook.com/FAITHDOCUMENTARYLIFE/photos/a.127774875809318/216773890242749

Sorry to respond so late but I wanted to add some things to this topic.
My understanding of Hagin and eternal security is that he taught Christians could fall unto the sin unto death but their spirit would be saved. This is what occurred in Hagin's prophecy to Willam Brannon.
"In this prophecy, the Lord also said, “At the end of ’65, he who now stands in the forefront of the healing ministry as a prophet will be taken out of the way. He’ll make a false step and Satan shall destroy his life, but his spirit will be saved, and his works will follow him. Ere ’66 shall come, he shall be gone." Source: Prophecies of William Branham's Death - BelieveTheSign

Eternal security is taught here from Rhema materials. Salvation in the Bible – An Eternal Salvation

One of Rhema Bible Training Center's first Dean's, who later pastored Grace Fellowship was Bob Yandian, who also believes and taught eternal security. However, the quote you give seems to question this evidence unless perhaps the removing of the dot was her life, not her salvation? I suppose one would have to read more in context to determine that?

I think many of the early Pentecostals, expecially Pentecostal Holiness ministers did not believe in once saved always saved. However, many later charismatics like John Osteen, came from Southern Baptists backgrounds. Kenneth Copeland too accepts OSAS Online Prayer Partners
I had always assumed Oral Roberts and T.L. Osborn did OSAS as well. I found it harder to find information that confirms this on them at the moment.

Pentecostal Denominations though such as the Assembly of God, and the Church of God, (Cleveland TN) though do suggest you can lose your salvation. Assurance of Salvation | Assemblies of God (USA)

Such things are always an issue when one attends indpendent charismatic churches. Doctrine is not always known or stated. This is especially hard too with differing eschatological beliefs of WOF/Charismatics. Some of the newer influences have turned to a partial preteris position. Others are rapture believers, Pre, mid and even post trib can be represented.

 

[johansen]

Christians could fall unto the sin unto death but their spirit would be saved. This is what occurred in Hagin's prophecy to Willam Brannon.

so every christian will die, in this generation. and their spirits will be saved.

what special condition does it mean for them to sin onto death but their spirit be saved?
does it just mean they never repent of a persistant sin?

 

[Richard T]

so every christian will die, in this generation. and their spirits will be saved.

what special condition does it mean for them to sin onto death but their spirit be saved?
does it just mean they never repent of a persistant sin?

I think it is hard to say exactly what is the tipping point that will bring this on. In I Cor. the immorality was so bad that the believer slept with his father's wife. God can weight the hearts too so it is not as easy as a some specific number. Something about the magnitude of the sin and the number of times is what one might speculate though. To Hagin, the sin unto death was extremely rare. Yandian teaches too, that the likelihood of the sin unto death increases when the believer is affecting many others. So if the sin was just personal, one might not get to the sin unto death. If the sin affected the whole church, it might occur quickly.
Some seem to think too that such a person is warned or in the I Cor. man's case, he was given notice. I caution that anyone be extremely careful to think this of another believer, or themselve as being under the sin unto death. My experience teaches me that quite a few may think they have reached some state of no return to God. The devil loves this depressive and hopeless state of a believer, who could simply repent and move on.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

so every christian will die, in this generation. and their spirits will be saved.

what special condition does it mean for them to sin onto death but their spirit be saved?
does it just mean they never repent of a persistent sin?

Biblically? There is a difference between committing a sin and being a sinner.

John 10:28-30
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

Once saved, no one, not even yourself, can snatch you from The Father's hand.
Why?
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price.

You are not your own any longer. You belong to him.
Now, about salvation. How do we know? Can we just go about sinning because we are saved now? Paul gave an emphatic "No!" in Romans 6 and 7.

But John said it more directly:

1 John 3:4-10 (esp. 8-9)
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness—the one who does not love his fellow Christian—is not of God.

If you practice sin -- if you won't put it down, repent of it, put it behind you, don't do it again -- then you have not repented and become saved in the first place. It is not a single act of sin that causes you to "lose salvation" -- which is not possible (see John 10 again). It is the fact that you were never saved initially, as shown in 1 John 3. It is not a "how convenient" statement. It is from the bible. There are people like the Sons of Sceva, in Acts 10, who think they are following in Jesus' footsteps, but they are lost. And the demons destroyed them.

So, did you truly repent of your sin? If so, then 1 John 3:9. You won't "practice" that sin. Does it mean you may not sin anymore? No, we all sin. But Jesus' atonement healed ALL our sins: past, present and future. God does not live in time. He already knows how you finished the race.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I spent the early part of my walk with the Lord in WOF churches and they used to teach that one could actually lose their salvation, but now I've noticed some of the big time WOF preachers are now teaching eternal security / OSAS

But then again many of these same preachers are involved in the ecumenical movement.

So does all WOF people now believe in eternal security or have the big name WOF preachers fallen away from God's Word since we are in the end times and the falling away is growing in leaps and bounds?

It probably depends on the WOF circles you were listening in on and the decade.

WOF is about manifestation, the salvation message tends to be variable since it isn't the core point of WOF teaching.

I recall some charismatic places with WOF tendencies down the line got ex-baptist preachers which altered certain elements of the message. Since OSAS vs Can lose salvation is part of the bapticostal spectrum, this change is not unexpected.