Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Charlie24]

The falling away means falling away from the faith.ie Apostasy.
There will be a falling away from the faith among the Christians FIRST ,AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The restrainer will let the man of sin be revealed because of the falling away from the Faith in the Church.

Do you have any idea why there will be a falling away from the faith among the Christians who believed that they will be rapture before the tribulation ?
2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(of our gathering unto Jesus at His Coming -verse 1-) shall not come, except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That's true, I'm glad to see you have some understanding as to what is taking place.

Everything you said is not true however. Now take into account the true church that didn't apostatize. This is who Paul is speaking of.

 

[Riberra]

That's true, I'm glad to see you have some understanding as to what is taking place.

Everything you said is not true however. Now take into account the true church that didn't apostatize. This is who Paul is speaking of.

Paul in verse 1 say that our gathering unto Jesus will happen at HIS COMING not before the tribulation.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

His true church that didn't apostatize will be those that will stay faithful until Jesus Come in Glory....

The Christians who believed that they will be rapture before the tribulation are those who will be part of the falling away from the faith.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Where will we go? Do you not understand what Paul said?

1Thessalonians 4:15-18

It's pretty clear you are the one who needs to "snap out of it."

[According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.]

I would hate to be accused of cherry-picking!

 

[Postvieww]

"Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."


Correct .... this is the Lord's pre-tribulation immortals and that is why they are seen in heaven while the tribulation plays out upon the earth

Here they are again [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those already on thrones]

There are no resurrected believers shown in heaven in Rev 4:4 or 5:1-10 or in any of the scriptures you listed. Chapters 4 and 5 describe a scene just before and shortly after the ascension. Other groups mentioned as being in heaven are just as those described in Rev 6:9, only the souls of those departed, 2 Corinthians 5:8. There is no scripture that identifies resurrected saints in heaven at any time that is only assumed by pretribbers. Show us a clearly identified resurrected group in heaven that are not just assumed to be that way.

 

[Charlie24]

Revelation 14
[A second angel followed and said, “ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’a which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.]

The GT starts at 6, Please, the angels wouldn't have asked Christians of patient endurance, if they had been RAPTURED! As I say, let's keep Hope alive that despite what lies ahead He will be with us and His Holy Spirit will give us much Joy and grace till it's done. By the way, the Holy Spirit will still be with believers, may be the times will be too harsh for normal endurance but not too much for the One who called us to be of his Kind!!!

You would have us believe that these saints portrayed in Rev. 14 were left on earth and are now facing the wrath of God. It's a common misinterpretation of scripture among the post-trib's.

If you go back to vs 6 you will see an angel is preaching the Gospel to the entire world. The angel announces judgment is come, vs 7. Another angel comes and announces the fall of Babylon, vs 8. Then another angel comes warning of the penalty of taking the mark of the beast, 9-11. Then comes vs. 12, here are the unbelievers who have listened to the angels and accepted Christ as Saviour. They are now saints.

They will now keep the commandments heard from the angles preaching, and the faith in Jesus Christ. The "patience of the saints" is the suffering they must endure because it took the preaching of an angelic host from heaven before they would believe in Christ. In the next verse, 13, referring to those who were saved from hearing the preaching, they are martyred and called blessed.

This happens of over a period of time, no doubt they begin to witness for Christ. The worst part of the tribulation is about to begin. In the very next chap.15, the seven vials begin to be poured out. This is when the worst time on earth will take place. These new saints will be leading many to Christ, and "rest from their labors" when they are martyred.

The word "church" is mentioned 19 times in chapters 1-3, it is not mentioned one single time in chapters 6-19, which is the entire account of the great tribulation. The word "church" is mentioned only one more time after that in Rev. 22.

The true church, those who are in Christ, will not need to hear the gospel, they have already heard it and embraced it before all of this begins. The angel in Rev. 14 is not preaching the Gospel to the saved and the lost, only the lost, in which many will accept.

 

[Douggg]

Paul tell us that our gathering unto Jesus will not be 'pre-abomination of desolation',the church will be there when the abomination of desolation will be set up.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Riberra, I agree that Paul does not mention the abomination of desolation. But Jesus indicates in Matthew 24, it is the abomination of desolation setup that results in tribulation that the world has never known before and will never know again.

And in Luke 21:
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So it is a promise that we can escape all those things of the great tribulation, which we know comes when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped. The rapture takes place before then, but not necessarily before the 70th week begins.
It could, but it is not an absolute necessity.

There will still be Christians in the world after the rapture, but those are persons who become Christians in light of the events taking place all around them.

 

[Postvieww]

Riberra, I agree that Paul does not mention the abomination of desolation. But Jesus indicates in Matthew 24, it is the abomination of desolation setup that results in tribulation that the world has never known before and will never know again.

And in Luke 21:
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So it is a promise that we can escape all those things of the great tribulation, which we know comes when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped. The rapture takes place before then, but not necessarily before the 70th week begins.
It could, but it is not an absolute necessity.

There will still be Christians in the world after the rapture, but those are persons who become Christians in light of the events taking place all around them.

Hello Dougg,

The only ones standing before the Son of Man in heaven mentioned in Revelation got there through death and are not yet resurrected into their immortal bodies.

The rapture takes place after the falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Linet Kihonge]

These defenses that the LORD won't let Christians go through GT is very escaping of TRUTH.

Luke 21
[Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

“But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. And so you will bear testimony to me. But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. Everyone will hate you because of me. But not a hair of your head will perish. Stand firm, and you will win life.]

Where is it written, you will escape or the heavens will not let you go through GT for the Son of man will come for his Saints before any of these happen?

[Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”]

Praying you'll be able to escape is praying you won't have to face the GT not that the heavens will suddenly take up the whole Church before GT but may be the LORD will spare mankind or the sheep the GT by calling all of us to his Place or RIP before this TIME!!!

 

[Linet Kihonge]

You would have us believe that these saints portrayed in Rev. 14 were left on earth and are now facing the wrath of God.

No, I'm saying no one is going anywhere and the only thing that will happen close to rapture is after the resurrection of those who died or fell asleep bearing the name of the Cross or in Rev 20. If I went by your words you seem to be saying that Christ will come twice and he will only come once!!! So after all's been said and done, this pre-trib is the most distorting of the GOSPEL TRUTH!!!

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Before I feel convinced about the Pre-tribulation, explain how Christ will come twice for his church and where it's written!

 

[Douggg]

These defenses that the LORD won't let Christians go through GT is very escaping of TRUTH.

Luke 21
[Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

“But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. And so you will bear testimony to me. But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. Everyone will hate you because of me. But not a hair of your head will perish. Stand firm, and you will win life.]

Where is it written, you will escape or the heavens will not let you go through GT for the Son of man will come for his Saints before any of these happen?

[Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”]

Praying you'll be able to escape is praying you won't have to face the GT not that the heavens will suddenly take up the whole Church before GT but may be the LORD will spare mankind or the sheep the GT by calling all of us to his Place or RIP before this TIME!!!

The key to escaping the great tribulation, in the rapture, is to be counted worthy.

Posttribbers who preach against escaping the great tribulation by the rapture - are not worthy of it. So, everyone will receive according to what they believe.


.

 

[Douggg]

Hello Dougg,

The only ones standing before the Son of Man in heaven mentioned in Revelation got there through death and are not yet resurrected into their immortal bodies.

John is there.

.

 

[Charlie24]

What must be understood when reading Rev. 15-19, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation, is that Rev. 14 announces the highlights of what is coming. It's like me reading a book and giving you the main theme of what the book is about.

What you are reading in Rev. 14 is taking place in Rev 15-19. Everything that takes place on earth during the great tribulation is first announced in heaven. It is also prepared

These defenses that the LORD won't let Christians go through GT is very escaping of TRUTH.

Luke 21
[Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

“But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. And so you will bear testimony to me. But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. Everyone will hate you because of me. But not a hair of your head will perish. Stand firm, and you will win life.]

Where is it written, you will escape or the heavens will not let you go through GT for the Son of man will come for his Saints before any of these happen?

[Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”]

Praying you'll be able to escape is praying you won't have to face the GT not that the heavens will suddenly take up the whole Church before GT but may be the LORD will spare mankind or the sheep the GT by calling all of us to his Place or RIP before this TIME!!!

Ok, let's do it again by taking the scripture in context. This is where false doctrine comes from, not taking the scripture in context!

You quoted and completely misinterpreted Luke 35-36.

Let's back up to vs 34 where we are warned not to allow ourselves to be influenced with the cares of this life, in drunkeness, and being weighed down in the christian life.

vs 35, Don't let this happen because the snare is coming upon the whole earth.

vs36, Watch ye therefore, and pray always... STOP RIGHT HERE!

Watch and pray for what? That you don't slip in your relationship with the Lord. In other words, don't fall back into the things of the world.

Because if you do, you will not be found worthy to escape all these things.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

The key to escaping the great tribulation, in the rapture, is to be counted worthy.

Posttribbers who preach against escaping the great tribulation by the rapture - are not worthy of it. So, everyone will receive according to what they believe.


.

Jesus said he will only come once, he never said, he will first come for his Church and then He will come again for those who died in the tribulations + those who got saved in the tribulation. Post tribulation just supports Jesus will only come once just as it was preached in many other scriptures before. I was pre but after studying the whole book, the LORD is coming once and for all for the Church. I think pre is about Jesus coming ten times! I preach may the LORD have mercy on us that even if we go through it we will run and not go weary, we will walk and will not faint, I don't think of whatever you say!!!

 

[Charlie24]

Lk, you can't take a couple of verses from a context of scripture and say, here's the gospel truth. The first rule of interpretation states that scripture must interpreted by scripture, and the full context must be taken from each scripture. You are not following the rules.

When you learn how to follow the rules, I will continue this conversation.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

What must be understood when reading Rev. 15-19, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation, is that Rev. 14 announces the highlights of what is coming. It's like me reading a book and giving you the main theme of what the book is about.

What you are reading in Rev. 14 is taking place in Rev 15-19. Everything that takes place on earth during the great tribulation is first announced in heaven. It is also prepared


Ok, let's do it again by taking the scripture in context. This is where false doctrine comes from, not taking the scripture in context!

You quoted and completely misinterpreted Luke 35-36.

Let's back up to vs 34 where we are warned not to allow ourselves to be influenced with the cares of this life, in drunkeness, and being weighed down in the christian life.

vs 35, Don't let this happen because the snare is coming upon the whole earth.

vs36, Watch ye therefore, and pray always... STOP RIGHT HERE!

Watch and pray for what? That you don't slip in your relationship with the Lord. In other words, don't fall back into the things of the world.

Because if you do, you will not be found worthy to escape all these things.

Yes, so that GT will not catch you by surprise and stop cherry picking!

[There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”]

Whose redemption? Those who've already been redeemed or what??? There are only two people in the Bible, I Thessalonians referred to, the Christians and the asleep in the LORD!!!

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Lk, you can't take a couple of verses from a context of scripture and say, here's the gospel truth. The first rule of interpretation states that scripture must interpreted by scripture, and the full context must be taken from each scripture. You are not following the rules.

When you learn how to follow the rules, I will continue this conversation.

I will take up that challenge!!!

 

[Charlie24]

I will take up that challenge!!!

You may try but you've already proven you're not able!

Every statement you claim, if not expressed with scripture and the full context of that scripture, will be ignored by me and should be ignored by everyone else.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

But what do I do if they believe there will be two resurrections, one before GT and another after GT, like the Bible doesn't know how to use words.

I think God is in the same boat; he also can't (or more likely won't) force anyone to see the issues one way or the other and so like him, we also have to just accept that there will be people out there who have it wrong. Generally speaking I don't see the pre-trib as a big deal, except that it often produces a closed mind rather than genuine preparedness. It twists faith into a hardened counterfeit which is unable to consider alternative points of view because such consideration equates to a lack of faith.

Charlie I hope you don't mind that I use you as an example, but you have made it quite clear that you have no doubt, that you do not think twice, that you know that you know that you know that you know, but at least on this particular issue I think there is plenty of room for honest doubt. It's fine to have conviction and passion, but there should never be a time when we say, "I don't think twice about this or that".

The pre-trib case really is quite shaky and seems to be entirely hinged on three points, 1) That it would be unloving of God to put us through Great Tribulation like what is described in the Revelation, 2) that the Great Tribulation and God's wrath are the same thing and 3) There will be two return's of Jesus; one for the Christians and a later one for the unbelieving Jews (who apparently becoming believing as a result of their experiences in the Great Tribulation, but then if that's the case then the GT actually achieved something good in the hearts of man and therefore contradicts point 2).

All three points can be refuted quite easily but, as we've seen on this thread, the pre-tribbers fall back on "God won't put us through the tribulation of his wrath" thus looping back to the original argument as though it is a rebuttal when really it is not.

It is at this point where the discussion breaks down and we either find a new angle from which to present the information, or we agree to disagree.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Luke 21

{Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.]

Daniel 7

[I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.]

Revelation 13

[People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.]

Revelation 14

[This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”]