Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Charlie24]

Earlier I expressed a curiosity in exploring "what if's" and I'm still curious as to what a "what if" would look like from the pre-trib perspective. I'm not asking anyone to change their point of view, confess to being wrong, or suggesting that anyone is less spiritual than the other. I see this only as a discussion. In that context I'd like to get a little more clarity from pre-tribbers.

For example, if I'm wrong in my post-trib position, then I'll be raptured up before the problems and at worst I will have over prepared. I doubt God will be upset with me for preparing to suffer and die for my faith, so I don't see any significant consequence to being mistaken about a post-trib stance. I'd probably feel a little embarassed at having been so sure and promoting it so strongly, only to have been mistaken, but I think I'd get over that pretty quickly.

On the other hand, I can see some fairly significant consequences arising from the pre-trib position, if the pre-tribbers are indeed mistaken in their interpretation of the evidence. What I'd like more clarification on is that (assuming the pre-tribbers got it wrong) at what point would you recognize the mistake? The Mark of the Beast? The rise of the AC? The two witnesses running around burning people with fire from their mouths?

At what point do you think, "the evidence around me is too much to continue believing a pre-trib rapture. Surely this is the end time"? Remember, this is only a hypothetical. Responding to the hypothetical is not an admission of error any more than I admitted to being wrong by suggesting what my reaction would be if I do end up being wrong in my position.


I understand your position and considering what you believe I would say that is quite reasonable. I hold a different position with a different belief.

I think I've shown you through scripture why my position is pre-trib. I know for certain I will not face the wrath of God on that day. What keeps me watching and doing the best to guard my relationship with Christ is that the scripture tells us very little as to what happens before the rapture. This is what the believer must watch and prepare for.

I don't know if I will be here during the immediate years just before the rapture, but I do know it will be a very hard time for christians when that time comes. For the past 5 years or so, the worldwide persecution of christians is on a sharp increase. Apostasy of the church will be at its height.

I'm 60 years old now and have been a christian for many years. I have never felt insecure of being a christian until about 4-5 years ago. We are in the target of satan and it can't be denied. I firmly believe right here in these United States of America, that christians will be persecuted to the death before the rapture takes place, and before the great tribulation. We will know for sure who the real christians are before the book of Revelation begins to unfold. That's why Jesus told the church to hold on to what they have (faith in Christ) that no man take your reward (your salvation).

This will not be the wrath of God, it is the wrath of satan on who he despises the most in this world, the followers of Christ. Just as sure as the 1st and 2nd century christians were fed to the lions and tortured to death, christians will give their lives before the tribulation. I believe the ones who give their lives at this time were chosen before the foundations of the world.

Out of all this chaos will rise the anti-christ with a solution to the problems of the world, just as Christ came the first time with a solution to mans problems. He will present peace to the world but will bring destruction.

Don't think the pre-trib believers will not suffer, we will suffer in many ways before Gods wrath falls on the unbelieving. Some will suffer unto death. But this will be a walk in the park compared to Gods wrath at the great tribulation, they will pray for death and it shall flee from them.

 

[Charlie24]

Earlier I expressed a curiosity in exploring "what if's" and I'm still curious as to what a "what if" would look like from the pre-trib perspective. I'm not asking anyone to change their point of view, confess to being wrong, or suggesting that anyone is less spiritual than the other. I see this only as a discussion. In that context I'd like to get a little more clarity from pre-tribbers.

For example, if I'm wrong in my post-trib position, then I'll be raptured up before the problems and at worst I will have over prepared. I doubt God will be upset with me for preparing to suffer and die for my faith, so I don't see any significant consequence to being mistaken about a post-trib stance. I'd probably feel a little embarassed at having been so sure and promoting it so strongly, only to have been mistaken, but I think I'd get over that pretty quickly.

On the other hand, I can see some fairly significant consequences arising from the pre-trib position, if the pre-tribbers are indeed mistaken in their interpretation of the evidence. What I'd like more clarification on is that (assuming the pre-tribbers got it wrong) at what point would you recognize the mistake? The Mark of the Beast? The rise of the AC? The two witnesses running around burning people with fire from their mouths?

At what point do you think, "the evidence around me is too much to continue believing a pre-trib rapture. Surely this is the end time"? Remember, this is only a hypothetical. Responding to the hypothetical is not an admission of error any more than I admitted to being wrong by suggesting what my reaction would be if I do end up being wrong in my position.

I understand your position and considering what you believe I would say that is quite reasonable. I hold a different position with a different belief.
I think I've shown you through scripture why my position is pre-trib. I know for certain I will not face the wrath of God on that day. What keeps me watching and doing the best to guard my relationship with Christ is that the scripture tells us very little as to what happens before the rapture. This is what the believer must watch and prepare for.
I don't know if I will be here during the immediate years just before the rapture, but I do know it will be a very hard time for christians when that time comes. For the past 5 years or so, the worldwide persecution of christians is on a sharp increase. Apostasy of the church will be at its height.
I'm 60 years old now and have been a christian for many years. I have never felt insecure of being a christian until about 4-5 years ago. We are in the target of satan and it can't be denied. I firmly believe right here in these United States of America, that christians will be persecuted to the death before the rapture takes place, and before the great tribulation. We will know for sure who the real christians are before the book of Revelation begins to unfold. That's why Jesus told the church to hold on to what they have (faith in Christ) that no man take your reward (your salvation).
This will not be the wrath of God, it is the wrath of satan on who he despises the most in this world, the followers of Christ. Just as sure as the 1st and 2nd century christians were fed to the lions and tortured to death, christians will give their lives before the tribulation. I believe the ones who give their lives at this time were chosen before the foundations of the world.
Out of all this chaos will rise the anti-christ with a solution to the problems of the world, just as Christ came the first time with a solution to mans problems. He will present peace to the world but will bring destruction.
Don't think the pre-trib believers will not suffer, we will suffer in many ways before Gods wrath falls on the unbelieving. Some will suffer unto death. But this will be a walk in the park compared to Gods wrath at the great tribulation, they will pray for death and it shall flee from them.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Hi Charlie. Thanks for your reply. Yes, I understand your position and why you take that position.

However, my question is, assuming, hypothetically, your interpretation of what you see in scripture is mistaken, and Christians will be around for the Great Tribulation, at what point do you think you'd stop and say something like, "hey wait a minute, this is the GT"?

 

[Charlie24]

Hi Charlie. Thanks for your reply. Yes, I understand your position and why you take that position.

However, my question is, assuming, hypothetically, your interpretation of what you see in scripture is mistaken, and Christians will be around for the Great Tribulation, at what point do you think you'd stop and say something like, "hey wait a minute, this is the GT"?

I know it sounds arogant, but it's not meant to be that way.

I know I'm not going through the wrath of God on that day of His pouring out on the unbelievers. Just as sure as I'm typing on this keyboard.

But I may be called on to suffer and even give my life before I'm taken out of the way of His wrath.

Your question is better directed elsewhere. The Lord has settled that in my heart beyond any doubt.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Hi Charlie. Thanks for your reply. Yes, I understand your position and why you take that position.

However, my question is, assuming, hypothetically, your interpretation of what you see in scripture is mistaken, and Christians will be around for the Great Tribulation, at what point do you think you'd stop and say something like, "hey wait a minute, this is the GT"?

Actually, I have been apologetic of the GT because I always thought, "mmmh, nah, the LORD wouldn't do that!" but the flood is the GT and the times we've been living in are the times of Noah. No one has seen what the GT looks like but if I were my friends here, I would ask the LORD to spare us the GT if and when he deems it his will. It shall be terrible during these times and you've to be prepared. Noah (Prophets) have been preaching there's a flood and people have been thinking, "are you saying we haven't seen catastrophes or what, I mean who in heavens name would believe in GT after the WWII, The problems of this earth are here to stay, so stop the ALARMING proclamations." But you and I know too well, that a flood is coming and it's going to take every one of us on the "pleas of pardon of (LORD remove this CUP away from ME!)" But what do I do if they believe there will be two resurrections, one before GT and another after GT, like the Bible doesn't know how to use words. Everyone will be caught up in the air after the first resurrection period! :/ The sooner we snap out of it, the better we shall prepare our loved ones as well!

 

[miknik5]

I understand your position and considering what you believe I would say that is quite reasonable. I hold a different position with a different belief.
I think I've shown you through scripture why my position is pre-trib. I know for certain I will not face the wrath of God on that day. What keeps me watching and doing the best to guard my relationship with Christ is that the scripture tells us very little as to what happens before the rapture. This is what the believer must watch and prepare for.
I don't know if I will be here during the immediate years just before the rapture, but I do know it will be a very hard time for christians when that time comes. For the past 5 years or so, the worldwide persecution of christians is on a sharp increase. Apostasy of the church will be at its height.
I'm 60 years old now and have been a christian for many years. I have never felt insecure of being a christian until about 4-5 years ago. We are in the target of satan and it can't be denied. I firmly believe right here in these United States of America, that christians will be persecuted to the death before the rapture takes place, and before the great tribulation. We will know for sure who the real christians are before the book of Revelation begins to unfold. That's why Jesus told the church to hold on to what they have (faith in Christ) that no man take your reward (your salvation).
This will not be the wrath of God, it is the wrath of satan on who he despises the most in this world, the followers of Christ. Just as sure as the 1st and 2nd century christians were fed to the lions and tortured to death, christians will give their lives before the tribulation. I believe the ones who give their lives at this time were chosen before the foundations of the world.
Out of all this chaos will rise the anti-christ with a solution to the problems of the world, just as Christ came the first time with a solution to mans problems. He will present peace to the world but will bring destruction.
Don't think the pre-trib believers will not suffer, we will suffer in many ways before Gods wrath falls on the unbelieving. Some will suffer unto death. But this will be a walk in the park compared to Gods wrath at the great tribulation, they will pray for death and it shall flee from them.

This is exactly what I have come to understand.

But the Lord hasn't shown me where I will be

I do not know whether to believe pretrib or post trib. But I am confused by all that you have said because you imply that you will see these things happen yet you will not be here when the tribulation begins?

How is your view pretrib if you understand that many will suffer and be killed for the faith if that isn't already the beginnings pf the seven years of tribulation?

Does anyone hold to a mid trib Rapture

I believe that this is what o hold to based on Daniels prophecy and 2thessonians2

As well as revelation since Christ forewarns us to be faithful and to overcome

Who would have to overcome if there isn't going to be troubles?

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Now which times do you people live in, being in denial doesn't mean scripture will change how everything will go down. The only one who will be spared of the great afflictions will be 12 tribes.

The Four Kingdoms
The First Kingdom was the first civilization before the WW1 because despite it's conflicts it was at least human
The Second Kingdom was the second civilization after the WWI and the only thing that hit hard this "Kingdom' was the Spanish Flu that killed over 50 million people around the world.
The Third Kingdom is the third civilization after WWII and the only thing we've witnessed is desire to Rule the world and have power over various resources. Anyway, we are of the third Kingdom and the only thing we've seen is the rivalry on the most powerful economies.
The Fourth kingdom is the one we await and it's the one of the GT.

The rapture is after Revelation 20! or rather after 1st Resurrection!

 

[miknik5]

Now which times do you people live in, being in denial doesn't mean scripture will change how everything will go down. The only one who will be spared of the great afflictions will be 12 tribes.

The Four Kingdoms
The First Kingdom was the first civilization before the WW1 because despite it's conflicts it was at least human
The Second Kingdom was the second civilization after the WWI and the only thing that hit hard this "Kingdom' was the Spanish Flu that killed over 50 million people around the world.
The Third Kingdom is the third civilization after WWII and the only thing we've witnessed is desire to Rule the world and have power over various resources. Anyway, we are of the third Kingdom and the only thing we've seen is the rivalry on the most powerful economies.
The Fourth kingdom is the one we await and it's the one of the GT.

The rapture is after Revelation 20!

Can't be after revelation 20
It has to be before the 1000 year reign

Since there are those who have a part in the first resurrection who will reign during the 1000 year reign which is a time between after the false prophet and false Christ are cast into the lake of fire and before Satan, (after the great battle prompted through satans
spirit gathering the "kings of the earth" is over) is cast into the lake of fire

 

[Linet Kihonge]

After the First resurrection is completed then the elect will be taken up into skies to meet with Christ. So first, the Dead in Christ then those alive in Christ!. I'm not talking about 10 years later or 1,000 weeks after but in a sequence of mins.

 

[miknik5]

the rapture whenever it happened. Happened before revelation 20 for we see in revelation 19 an army in white following the Lord into battle against those who have the mark of the beast
And these in white who were already in heaven are those who had a part in the first resurrection who will enter into the 1000 year reign as priests before God

 

[miknik5]

After the First resurrection is completed then the elect will be taken up into skies to meet with Christ. So first, the Dead in Christ then those alive in Christ!. I'm not talking about 10 years later or 1,000 weeks after but in a sequence of mins.

Yeah I know that but whenever that happened was before revelation 20

See revelation 19 because that army in Heaven returns with Him and reigns during the 1000 year reign before satan is let lose again

Those who died during the battle before the 1000 year reign are those who will be raised afterwards when all who have not heard the voice of the son of God and believed while they were living will be judged

Included in that number are all men and women of all generations up to the time of the great tribulation who have died as well as those who had the mark of the beast during the tribulation period who have died. Including up to that present point at the end of revelation 19

 

[Linet Kihonge]

the rapture whenever it happened. Happened before revelation 20 for we see in revelation 19 an army in white following the Lord into battle against those who have the mark of the beast
And these in white who were already in heaven are those who had a part in the first resurrection who will enter into the 1000 year reign as priests before God

I know there's a cloud of witnesses in heaven, and I know there will be a great multitude of those in white linen who will be watching all the saints bear the Cross and declare Christ as their only TRUE King. The only reason I believe that those are not the Saints of the GT is because they are not only ones whose resurrection was witnessed in scripture. There are also those who rose from the dead during the Resurrection of Christ. Matthew 27, and those are the ones who were saying, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” Meaning the marriage was about to happen not it HAPPENED or HAPPENING.

 

[miknik5]

I know there's a cloud of witnesses in heaven, and I know there will be a great multitude of those in white linen who will be watching all the saints bear the Cross and declare Christ as their only TRUE King. The only reason I believe that those are not the Saints of the GT is because they are not only ones whose resurrection was witnessed in scripture. There are also those who rose from the dead during the Resurrection of Christ. Matthew 27, and those are the ones who were saying, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” Meaning the marriage was about to happen not it HAPPENED or HAPPENING.

The white garments signify all who have faith in the blood of the lamb. And in fact that is His Bride. All who believe until the year of the lords favor is complete

The multitude before the throne and those who had been be headed because of the testimony of Jesus ALL have white robes

That cloud of witnesses are those who also hold to the faith of Jesus and are servants with us. One Lord One bridegroom. One bride

 

[Linet Kihonge]

What time did you want the Bible to give the bride the dress to wear? Or tribulations were still there after Rev 19? I'm saying the Church was being prepared for the coming of the Groom (in the spiritual realms) and it was given the dress to wear.

Revelation 20 [I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.]

It's during this time, that those who will be alive in Christ will taken up

1 Thessalonians 4 [For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.]

Don't say the rapture will happen b4 the 1st ressurctn!

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Yes, the Revelation 19 is about the preparation of the Church to be received into the LORD's Kingdom! Please, the verse does not state the Marriage to the Bride has already happened or it's happening. The Church will be received into the LORD's kingdom in 20 and not before or even after 20.

 

[miknik5]

What time did you want the Bible to give the bride the dress to wear? Or tribulations were still there after Rev 19? I'm saying the Church was being prepared for the coming of the Groom (in the spiritual realms) and it was given the dress to wear.

Revelation 20 [I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.]

It's during this time, that those who will be alive in Christ will taken up

1 Thessalonians 4 [For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.]

Don't say the rapture will happen b4 the 1st ressurctn!

From your first comment. What time?
Right away. What did you think it meant that we are hidden in Him
What did you think was needed at the wedding?
And if one doesn't have that GARMENT now through faith, they can't enter in

Matthew 22

What did you think Christ meant when He said if I had not come they would have no sin but now they need a "cloke" for their sins John 15

We are washed. And He has already washed those for if He does not wash us we have no part with Him and are not in Him already gathered up and out of the world and seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus


IN HIM is the key word sir

 

[miknik5]

Yes, the Revelation 19 is about the preparation of the Church to be received into the LORD's Kingdom! Please, the verse does not state the Marriage to the Bride has already happened or it's happening. The Church will be received into the LORD's kingdom in 20 and not before or even after 20.

They're already wearing the garments which are given by none other than The Lord through faith in His covering

His royal robes of righteousness

In revelation Chrust forewarns His Body/His Bride/ His Church to by garments. And as well those who have kept their garments with them or those who have not soiled their garments

Those garments are simply remaining in Him, hidden in Him and not going out from That Refuge and Covering which is faith in Him and His Bliood which covers is and makes us clean in the sight of God

 

[miknik5]

What time did you want the Bible to give the bride the dress to wear? Or tribulations were still there after Rev 19? I'm saying the Church was being prepared for the coming of the Groom (in the spiritual realms) and it was given the dress to wear.

Revelation 20 [I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.]

It's during this time, that those who will be alive in Christ will taken up

1 Thessalonians 4 [For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.]

Don't say the rapture will happen b4 the 1st ressurctn!

I will say it again. The rapture will happen b4 the first resurrection

And I will say blessed are those who have a part in the first resurrection. Those who have already passed from death to life where the second death has no power over them

Whoever hears my voice and believes in the one who sent Me has life and will not come under condemnation. He has already passed from death to life . He who believes in Me though he die shall live and he who believes in Me and lives shall never die

 

[Straightshot]

Here is my comment after looking over the above few postings on the related topic of this thread

Briefly ...........

This controversy is the biggest one on the block today and there is a reason for it

Jesus has said the He will keep His true ecclesia living at the time from His coming time of wrath and judgment upon an entire world of unbelief .... this He will do

The experience is documented in scripture more than a few times .... and for both the dead in Christ and the living together at the same moment

And the evidence of the experience is given by Revelation's view of those dwelling in heaven [the state of immortality] during the tribulation period which will last for 2550 days

No human has gone to heaven yet .... only the One who has come down from heaven, Jesus Christ .... and it is the same who will bring all of the judgments upon the earth during the tribulation although He will not be seen

The 144000 sealed mortals of Israel are seen at the beginning of the tribulation, the first believers of the period .... and they have a particular mission .... something like the first 12 apostles in the first century

Revelation switches back and forth from heaven to the earth during the tribulation and the some of the individual visions are repeated with more details of the same subject as the narrative moves forward

The tribulation record of the judgments begins on the earth in chapter 8 .... chapter 6 is a portent [preview] of the coming judgments with the 6th seal leading up to the 7th .... and then the judgments from heaven begin upon the earth

Chapter 7 is a view of the 144000 of Israel upon the earth and the pre-tribulation ecclesia already made immortal .... and then the judgments of the tribulation will begin

The same immortal pre-tribulation ecclesia are then seen several times as the record of the judgments moves forward from chapter 8 through chapter 19 and the same are seen already on thrones in chapter 20

The 144000 are the first believers of the tribulation and their witness will convince more on the earth to turn and believe during the period of which most will be martyred and will have to wait for their changing to immortality at the end of tribulation

And there will be a few who will survive the tribulation and these will be gathered by the Lord at His appearing upon the earth at the end of the tribulation for separating the survivors .... believers from the unbelievers [this gathering is no a resurrection to immortality]

Those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth ... those in unbelief will be rejected

Those who argue about a pre-tribulation changing or a post tribulation changing to immortality need to ponder over the following scriptures [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-20]

The dividing of today's Christianity at the time and reasons for the dividing are given

It is this dividing that will separate those who will be changed to immortality just before the Lord begins His judgment upon an entire world of unbelief

So why is this argument of significance today?

One must look behind the surface of the controversy to see the answer

The Lord is on one side, and Satan is on the other .... and the motives are different

The Lord has said that He will keep living believers from His coming judgment ..... and the devil says no and calls the Lord a liar

Why .... because Satan's motivation is to deceive and kill a man before the man is saved

.... and when Satan is cast to the earth with the Lord's restraint against him remove, he will hunt and kill as many humans as he can .... billions

So he will be looking for opportunity [Revelation 12:12]

The readers of this posting will have to decide whether it is the Lord lying about His promise .... or whether the devil owns the lie

So a man must be ready [saved] as the Lord says .... ready for what?

This quote from the above poster is in fact a testimony to the Lord's pre-tribulation call

"He who believes in Me though he die shall live and he who believes in Me and lives shall never die"

 

[miknik5]

I haven't read all of your post. But it is interesting that you note and understand that no man has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven

And with this said you understand that HE is The First before all things created

Therefore so you agree that the two "heavenly" witnesses who come down from heaven to give their testimony must First physically die as well before any rapture

These two have never physically died. And all must die once

Correct?