Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Linet Kihonge]

I think God is in the same boat; he also can't (or more likely won't) force anyone to see the issues one way or the other and so like him, we also have to just accept that there will be people out there who have it wrong. Generally speaking I don't see the pre-trib as a big deal, except that it often produces a closed mind rather than genuine preparedness. It twists faith into a hardened counterfeit which is unable to consider alternative points of view because such consideration equates to a lack of faith.

Charlie I hope you don't mind that I use you as an example, but you have made it quite clear that you have no doubt, that you do not think twice, that you know that you know that you know that you know, but at least on this particular issue I think there is plenty of room for honest doubt. It's fine to have conviction and passion, but there should never be a time when we say, "I don't think twice about this or that".

The pre-trib case really is quite shaky and seems to be entirely hinged on three points, 1) That it would be unloving of God to put us through Great Tribulation like what is described in the Revelation, 2) that the Great Tribulation and God's wrath are the same thing and 3) There will be two return's of Jesus; one for the Christians and a later one for the unbelieving Jews (who apparently becoming believing as a result of their experiences in the Great Tribulation, but then if that's the case then the GT actually achieved something good in the hearts of man and therefore contradicts point 2).

All three points can be refuted quite easily but, as we've seen on this thread, the pre-tribbers fall back on "God won't put us through the tribulation of his wrath" thus looping back to the original argument as though it is a rebuttal when really it is not.

It is at this point where the discussion breaks down and we either find a new angle from which to present the information, or we agree to disagree.

Someone just walked out!!! I'll be fine!

 

[Douggg]

Jesus said he will only come once, he never said, he will first come for his Church and then He will come again for those who died in the tribulations + those who got saved in the tribulation. Post tribulation just supports Jesus will only come once just as it was preached in many other scriptures before. I was pre but after studying the whole book, the LORD is coming once and for all for the Church. I think pre is about Jesus coming ten times! I preach may the LORD have mercy on us that even if we go through it we will run and not go weary, we will walk and will not faint, I don't think of whatever you say!!!

Why are them in Zechariah 14 in Jerusalem, Jews who are Christians at that time, escape through a valley created in the Mt. Olives splitting when the Lord returns - not raptured (with the other Christians), if the rapture takes place post trib?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

You may try but you've already proven you're not able!

Every statement you claim, if not expressed with scripture and the full context of that scripture, will be ignored by me and should be ignored by everyone else.

Hi Charlie. It's strange for me to see you being so hard on Linet Kihonge about scriptural references. Do you remember waaaaaay back on page #11 (post 215) you made these comments about the trumpets of the Revelation (in response to my post #213)...

The trumpet that Paul speaks of in 1Thes. 4 is not the 7th trumpet of Rev.

John had not written the Revelation of Jesus Christ at this time and the Thes. church would have no knowledge of it. Paul knew through his own revelation from Christ (which he writes about) what would happen in the last days, but not one time did he tell the church they would suffer this wrath. In fact, he told them "for we are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1Thes. 5:9

Paul was speaking to the church of what would befall them. The trumpet he speaks of is the closing of the church age when the true church is taken out of the way.

I was intrigued by this explanation and in post #232 I said...
"Do you have any scriptural evidence to suggest that the trumpet he speaks of is the "closing of the church age"? Can you describe what the previous trumpets were, that caused Paul to specify a "last" trumpet? If that last trumpet, he describes a situation where we will all be changed, in a moment, the dead will be raised and we'll be given new bodies."

You responded in post #235 by suggesting that because Paul did not use the exact words as Jesus (i.e. the sun being darkened, the stars falling, nations mourning) that the trumpet Jesus referenced and the trumpet Paul referenced could not be the same thing. But still, there was no information about a "church age" ending which is what I specifically asked about. You want to split hairs on wording when it comes to the way Jesus and Paul described what happens when this trumpet is sounded, but then you feel fine to insert your own phrases (like church age) to shape the context into a particular conclusion.

In this case you did not use scripture to interpret scripture. You did compare scriptures, which is fine, but none of them mentioned anything about an ending "church age". There is no series of Trumpets in relation to the End Time aside from the 7 trumpets of the Revelation which means if Paul was not talking about the Revelation trumpets then it's not only one church age trumpet for which you need evidence, but at least 3, (since it would come across as rather awkward to talk about the last of two options; instead you'd say first and second).

Where are the trumpets for these other ages which ended that caused Paul to specifically reference a "last" trumpet?

And, your comparison about the difference between Jesus' description of his return and Paul's description of his return comes across as forced. You say Jesus' reference has angels collecting the saints while Paul's reference has the Lord himself doing it, but that's not what Paul describes. He says the saints will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air. There's pleeeeenty of room there for the angels to be doing the "catching up".

Also, Paul's description says, "the dead in Christ" will rise. Not "unbelieving Jews". There, again, is plenty of room for interpretation. And, the 1 Corinthians 15 verse doesn't say anything about being caught up, either by angels or the Lord. According to the standard of interpretation you used for concluding a distinction between Jesus' Matthew 24 reference and Paul 1 Thess 4 reference, we could also say there is a 3 resurrection, because this reference is not worded exactly as either of those two references. You could not disagree with that conclusion without contradicting your earlier reasoning between the Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4 verses.

I think any sincere person could see that there is an obvious link between all three of these verses and that they are almost certainly descriptions of the same event but from differing perspectives. They're all triggered by a trumpet. They all talk about the dead being raised/the saints being gathered. They're all referenced in the context of the endtime and the Lord returning.

In conclusion, the evidence, as I interpret it, suggests that your conclusions are not based on the bigger picture or the context of what the is actually being described.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Someone just walked out!!!

Nah, Charlie's been saying that kind of thing for a few pages now. I think he's still around and I'm thankful for that because the discussion would be rather one sided otherwise.

 

[Postvieww]

John is there.

.

In a resurrected, glorified body??? Show me.

He went in a vision for sure, he said in the spirit, even if taken bodily, he didn’t stay.

 

[Charlie24]

I think God is in the same boat; he also can't (or more likely won't) force anyone to see the issues one way or the other and so like him, we also have to just accept that there will be people out there who have it wrong. Generally speaking I don't see the pre-trib as a big deal, except that it often produces a closed mind rather than genuine preparedness. It twists faith into a hardened counterfeit which is unable to consider alternative points of view because such consideration equates to a lack of faith.

Charlie I hope you don't mind that I use you as an example, but you have made it quite clear that you have no doubt, that you do not think twice, that you know that you know that you know that you know, but at least on this particular issue I think there is plenty of room for honest doubt. It's fine to have conviction and passion, but there should never be a time when we say, "I don't think twice about this or that".

The pre-trib case really is quite shaky and seems to be entirely hinged on three points, 1) That it would be unloving of God to put us through Great Tribulation like what is described in the Revelation, 2) that the Great Tribulation and God's wrath are the same thing and 3) There will be two return's of Jesus; one for the Christians and a later one for the unbelieving Jews (who apparently becoming believing as a result of their experiences in the Great Tribulation, but then if that's the case then the GT actually achieved something good in the hearts of man and therefore contradicts point 2).

All three points can be refuted quite easily but, as we've seen on this thread, the pre-tribbers fall back on "God won't put us through the tribulation of his wrath" thus looping back to the original argument as though it is a rebuttal when really it is not.

It is at this point where the discussion breaks down and we either find a new angle from which to present the information, or we agree to disagree.

Even though we sharply disagree, you do make a good arguement. I believe you are looking for the truth in God's Word.

There is a reason why we say God will not pour out His wrath on His believers.

There is a huge difference between the persecution of the saint who trys to live for God, and the wrath of God. It is satan and the world that persecutes the saint. It is God Himself that executes wrath.

For example, when God destroyed the earth with the flood, it was His wrath that took the life of every person on earth except for 8 people. These 8 people were delivered from His wrath because they were the only ones on earth who believed God. Much like what will happen in His future wrath.

Several here have given scripture after scripture that says the believer will not face the wrath of God. I can't make you or anyone else believe this. True peace in one's heart over this issue can only come from God.

The scripture says "to come out from among them and I will receive you." This is our commandment from God. It was given by all the apostles in one form or another. This is just one of many warnings from God to be ready, and keep separated from the world that He may receive you.

Why should we be ready, watching, and separated from the world at all times? So that we can be received when His wrath on the unbelieving takes place, we will be found worthy to escape this terrible time. Just as Noah and his believing family was taken up and out of the way of Gods wrath in the ark.

No one knows the mind of God, He only gave us His word to follow. It must be studied very carefully to find the truth. As has been shown in this thread, there are many who don't know how to study Gods word. Now that's a hard statement, and can be taken as arrogance, or can be taken to prove that we need to study the word of God using all the techniques that He has supplied us with. I speak here of proper hermeneutics, the laws of interpreting end-time scripture. If we don't, we will get nowhere.

 

[Straightshot]

My comments

As I look over the few post above I see points of correction in the postings that are needed in order to understand the subject of this thread

Not in any particular order, but just as they come to my mind:

The gathering in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is the Lord's call to immortality for His true ecclesia, this will occur just before the day of the Lord begins and the man of lawlessness is revealed

The great falling away at the time will be indicative of a world that has refused to believe the truth about Him and in particular those who will follow Satan's beast and his man of lawlessness

The Lord's call will include both the dead in Christ and those living at the moment who will not have time to die [the dead will be raised and the living will be changed] .... and these will be immortalized together in the twinkling of an eye

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are a focus upon Israel during the coming time of time of Jacob's trouble still pending .... and there is no event of any resurrection to immortality in either

.... and today's church is not subject of either passage, His nation of Israel is the focus

70 AD is not in the scope of either passage .... the Lord is looking longer to the time of Jacob's trouble at the end of this present dispensation of His grace

Neither did He tell His apostles who were all of Israel when the time would come [the dating] and He speaks to them as if they would experience the same for their nation .... He has not revealed the dating to anyone and tells them that before all of the future events listed about their own experiences and fate in their day

He was asked when He would restore the kingdom to Israel, but said that it was not for them to know the time [the dating]

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven, so there are no human immortals there yet .... the spirit of a man is returned to his Maker at his physical death for keeping and further disposition .... the dead know nothing and are waiting

There are but two destines for the spirit of a man .... one to eternal life .... the other to eternal damnation

The first humans to experience the changing to eternal life of His true ecclesia of both a few of Israel and the balance of the nation's of the Gentiles will take place just before He brings judgment upon a world of total unbelief .... and with this changing there will not be one believer left on the earth going into the tribulation period

The Lord is only going to intervene in the affairs of humanity once .... to execute the following: His call to immortalize His true ecclesia and then to bring His judgment of an unbelieving world .... He will not be seen by earth dwellers during the process .... and then He will appear upon the earth at the ending of the same

The first to believe during the period of His judgment will be the 144,000 of Israel .... this grouping has nothing to do with today's "church" .... and the same will spread the gospel of His soon coming kingdom upon the earth at the end of His judgment of the tribulation period

Most who turn to Him during the period will be martyred and made immortal at the end .... and a few mortals will survive of both Israel and the nations of the Gentiles .... these will enter and reproduce in the kingdom

The immortals of His true ecclesia are seen in heaven just before and during the tribulation several times as the narrative of Revelation moves forward .... and these will be with Him at the battle of Armageddon .... the same will then rule with Him over a kingdom of the mortals that survive the tribulation

So believe what you will, but He does intend to call His true ecclesia first .... then He will proceed with His judgment process during which He will not be seen by the earth dwellers

He will then appear upon the earth and gather the surviving mortals of His judgment

The argument over this controversy is significant and can be summed up by understanding that He will keep His true ecclesia from His judgment of the tribulation [Revelation 3:10] .... those of today's "church" who are living and are refuting this truth for what ever reason will enter the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-20]

If any have reasonable questions about this posting I will answer

.... and I will add Charlie's statement above ... he is right on

"There is a huge difference between the persecution of the saint who trys to live for God, and the wrath of God. It is satan and the world that persecutes the saint. It is God Himself that executes wrath"

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I understand what the unbelieving would have to suffer and I do believe that the Saints will have to remain vigilant all the time. For instance, a number of the seven bowls of God's wrath would be for those with the mark however, as for the seals and trumpets they will afflict mankind whether of the LORD's throne or not. It's only after revelation of the Son of Perdition, that the scripture indicated blessed were those who died in the name of the LORD because that's when there will be heinous persecution against the elect.

We have never said GT is only for those who would be unbelieving but everyone in the world will face an aspect of it or another in those days. So it's after the Seven bowls of God's wrath that the subsequent scriptures indicate the harvest and the second coming of the LORD. So I don't think all the aspects of GT will afflict the elect but mostly, environmental hardships and the great harassment from the "beast." I also know that the GT is exclusive of the sealed, I don't know how to put it but there's some distinction between the sealed and the believers.

Can I be audicious to say this, it will sound enraging but I hate people saying Jerusalem is the fallen Babylon!

I think the spirit of Jezebel which traces to the Asherah worshiping was responsible for the Blood of the Prophets (I don't how it will be responsible for the blood of the Holy People or it's role in Rev 17). It's an argument worth pursuing but can't say much with a dare attitude :/

 

[Straightshot]

"Can I be audicious to say this, it will sound enraging but I hate people saying Jerusalem is the fallen Babylon!"


Any who say this are wrong

There are two "great cities" noted in Revelation

The "great city" of MBG .... this is a Gentile city [civilization] that will be destroyed in one day by fire, never to rise again [Revelation 14:8; 17:16-18]

The other "great city" is the Lord's city of Jerusalem and even though this city has been intransigent toward the Lord and a part of MBG, it is an eternal city that will stand forever [Micah 4:1-3; Revelation 11:8; 21:2]

Tell those that accuse Jerusalem who are anti-semitic this: The Lord Himself is a Jew by His humanity, and still is [Revelation 5:5-6]

Most of those that do this are replacement theologists .... they have acquired His promises to Israel for themselves claiming that He is finished with His national people .... He is not

Israel was responsible for the death of some of the prophets and even the Lord himself .... but that was in another day when Israel was just a much a part of MGB as the Gentile nations

And Israel is still a part of the same as we speak .... the nation still rejects their Messiah and King

But this position is going to change for a believing remnant part during the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 20:34-44; Romans 11:25-36]

So He is not finished Israel as the majority of the professing "church" teach in error .... these have appropriated Israel's position for themselves and their particular religious organizations

Here is what the Lord says about this behavior [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I also believe the same thing too, even if their hearts are seared as if with Hot Iron the Lord will still save them!

 

[Straightshot]

A believing remnant part He will save .... no doubt [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24:29-31]

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Are you sure everything doesn't point back to a Church! It's becoming too consistent with what the Abomination of Great desolation is about.

1. Exaltation of self to the Position of God
2. Thyatira
3. Speaking very bold stuff etc

Anyway, I will switch back to the OP, Who are those in the City God loved. Rev 20???

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Post trib. are you sure that taking of the alive in Christ won't be after the thousand years?

 

[Straightshot]

I am not "post-trib" .... who are you asking in the two posts above?

I can answer, but don't want to answer for some one else

I am straightshot

 

[Linet Kihonge]

The first post, is open but 2nd to post-trib :/

 

[Charlie24]

I understand what the unbelieving would have to suffer and I do believe that the Saints will have to remain vigilant all the time. For instance, a number of the seven bowls of God's wrath would be for those with the mark however, as for the seals and trumpets they will afflict mankind whether of the LORD's throne or not. It's only after revelation of the Son of Perdition, that the scripture indicated blessed were those who died in the name of the LORD because that's when there will be heinous persecution against the elect.

We have never said GT is only for those who would be unbelieving but everyone in the world will face an aspect of it or another in those days. So it's after the Seven bowls of God's wrath that the subsequent scriptures indicate the harvest and the second coming of the LORD. So I don't think all the aspects of GT will afflict the elect but mostly, environmental hardships and the great harassment from the "beast." I also know that the GT is exclusive of the sealed, I don't know how to put it but there's some distinction between the sealed and the believers.

Can I be audicious to say this, it will sound enraging but I hate people saying Jerusalem is the fallen Babylon!

I think the spirit of Jezebel which traces to the Asherah worshiping was responsible for the Blood of the Prophets (I don't how it will be responsible for the blood of the Holy People or it's role in Rev 17). It's an argument worth pursuing but can't say much with a dare attitude :/

Jerusalem is not the Babylon of Rev. It's the false religion of the entire world from the beginning of time. Babylon represents opposition to God in wickedness. It began at the tower of Babel, where archeologists say it stood directly over where the old city of Babylon was built.

Babylon was destroyed but will be built again. Sadam Hussein began the construction of it, but the Gulf War put a stop to that. It's said that he engraved his name in the old stones from the ruins. The new Baylon will be the Babylon of Rev., a city of great commerce, with the evil spirits of false religion. It will be literally destroyed during the great wrath of God along with everything else that opposes God.

Are you sure everything doesn't point back to a Church! It's becoming too consistent with what the Abomination of Great desolation is about.

1. Exaltation of self to the Position of God
2. Thyatira
3. Speaking very bold stuff etc

Anyway, I will switch back to the OP, Who are those in the City God loved. Rev 20???

The city that God loves is Jerusalem. Those in the city are the redeemed Jews. They are all saved now as Paul said, Rom. 11:26.

This happens at the end of the millennium reign of Christ. They will now enter the Perfect Age which will never end, where time is no more.

Those ouside the city are the unbelievers left over from the millennium. They are destroyed and all that's left are those in Christ. This is the real end of time, when time shall be no more.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I guess we are done! We shouldn't be surprised by executions from Ishmaelites!

 

[Douggg]

In a resurrected, glorified body??? Show me.

He went in a vision for sure, he said in the spirit, even if taken bodily, he didn’t stay.

Why was John told to come up hither? John is experiencing what would be the resurrection and rapture when it takes place. John is in heaven before the great tribulation take place.

John was already in the spirit in Revelation 1. Revelation 4:1 is not necessary unless it is identifying the resurrection/rapture taking place before the events of the great tribulation.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

John was in prison on the Isle of Patmos

His spirit was taken to heaven and into the future to be shown "the things hereafter"

Then he was returned to Patmos where he later died

The things "hereafter" are still pending as we speak .... the 70th week decreed for Israel has not yet come .... the coming tribulation and beyond

John has not been "raptured" yet .... he is one of the dead in Christ who will be made immortal at the Lord's call

 

[Postvieww]

Post trib. are you sure that taking of the alive in Christ won't be after the thousand years?

Yes