Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Riberra]

My comment

John was in prison on the Isle of Patmos

His spirit was taken to heaven and into the future to be shown "the things hereafter"

Then he was returned to Patmos where he later died

The things "hereafter" are still pending as we speak .... the 70th week decreed for Israel has not yet come .... the coming tribulation and beyond

John has not been "raptured" yet .... he is one of the dead in Christ who will be made immortal at the Lord's call

Revelation 1:19
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, /and the things which are,/ and the things which shall be hereafter;

/The things which are/ is about the addressing to the Seven Churches that were in existence in the time of John in the Roman province named 'asia' Revelation 1:11 Revelation 2 Revelation 3

Some believe that because the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 that mean that the Church will be rapture to Heaven before the tribulation
what a twisting of Scripture....trying to support their wishful thinking.

 

[Straightshot]

You are the twister RB .... and I have to keep correcting you

Get busy and study yourself approved

In Revelation 2 and 3 the Lord addresses the "church" then and as we speak .... nothing has changed

And those who think that tribulation believers are not part of His following are flat wrong .... those that repent during the tribulation will be no different than today, both of Israel and of the Gentile nations

Most will be martyred for their faith and will have to wait to be made immortal at the end of the tribulation .... unlike today's true ecclesia who will be made immortal just before

You always have some excuse because you are reading David McPherson and the likes who call the pre-tribulation changing to immortality a "lie" of the devil

When in fact just the opposite is true

Learn that Satan has has motive for his meddling .... and that there is a misleading danger for you if you continue to refute the Lord's promise to keep you from His coming judgment

What I notice about you is your fetish for following false teachers .... you are not sticking with the scriptures and connecting the dots .... and your mentors are scripture pickers out of contextual over view

Learn how to read your Bible

 

[Riberra]

You are the twister RB .... and I have to keep correcting you

Get busy and study yourself approved

In Revelation 2 and 3 the Lord addresses the "church" then and as we speak .... nothing has changed

And those who think that tribulation believers are not part of His following are flat wrong .... those that repent during the tribulation will be no different than today, both of Israel and of the Gentile nations

Learn how to read your Bible

The tribulation will not be a time when the unbelievers will repent.
Here the proof. Revelation 9:20-21. I am waiting to see how you will try to twist what is written in the Bible.

Revelation 9
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

[Postvieww]

Why was John told to come up hither? John is experiencing what would be the resurrection and rapture when it takes place. John is in heaven before the great tribulation take place.

John was already in the spirit in Revelation 1. Revelation 4:1 is not necessary unless it is identifying the resurrection/rapture taking place before the events of the great tribulation.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Dougg said:

Why was John told to come up hither? John is experiencing what would be the resurrection and rapture when it takes place. John is in heaven before the great tribulation take place.

Too many try to read way too much into this passage. The voice he heard told him to come up hither so he could be shown the things which must be hereafter, Revelation 4:1. Of course he was in heaven before the tribulation, it hasn’t happened yet, but he would see it in the Revelation given to him. There is absolutely nothing in the text to make this a resurrection experience. Where in scripture do we find a temporary changing into immortality and then back to mortal? That theory will not work.

John was already in the spirit in Revelation 1.

Revelation 1:10 says he was in the spirit and Revelation 4:2 says “immediately I was in the spirit”, implying this happened again to him.

Revelation 4:1 is not necessary unless it is identifying the resurrection/rapture taking place before the events of the great tribulation.

Total speculation built on the need to get the church into heaven early in Revelation. Not the case.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

This passage is not a rapture of the church or a type of one. It is just what it says, John was in the spirit, taken to heaven to be shown what he would write down as our book of Revelation. Nothing more can or should be read into this passage.

 

[Straightshot]

"The tribulation will not be a time when the unbelievers will repent"


Wrong again.... repentance is a requirement for one's salvation

The Lord specifically tells those of the apostate "church" that when spews them out of His mouth and into the tribulation that they must repent

Some obviously will [Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7; 14:13; 20:4 [those beheaded]

You scripture picked those who will follow the beast ..... and these will not repent [Revelation 9:20-21; 14:9-11]

This tells me that you do not know your Bible well enough and this allows for you to be deceived by false teachers

Get to the task of reading the Lord's Word for yourself and stop handing off your fate to the preteristic/post-tribulation teachers .... while you still have time

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Some believe that because the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 that mean that the Church will be rapture to Heaven before the tribulation
what a twisting of Scripture....trying to support their wishful thinking.

I believe the church is mentioned, in several places after Revelation 3. Just depends on how one chooses to interpret what "the church" means.

Revelation 11:2 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

The Holy City certainly isn't a building. God doesn't live in man made buildings. We are the temple now. The Kingdom of Heaven does not come with observation. Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days etc. Pretty basic stuff, especially with hindsight.

REV 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

These people who are overcoming the Beast by laying down their lives aren't part of "the Church"?

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Washed by the blood of the lamb, praising God, coming out of great tribulation etc... These people aren't part of the church?

I don't understand how Christians today can argue a pre-trib rapture because "the church isn't mentioned in the Revelation". It just makes no sense that "the church" turns out to be the people who run away from suffering for their faith while these people described as laying down their lives for God seem to fit into...some other, (presumably lesser?) category because they weren't taken in the first collection of saints?

It really reminds me of Jesus' teachings about the first being last and the last being first. So much of what he taught indicated that there's gonna be some big surprises ahead.

 

[Riberra]

"The tribulation will not be a time when the unbelievers will repent"


Wrong again.... repentance is a requirement for one's salvation

The Lord specifically tells those of the apostate "church" that when spews them out of His mouth and into the tribulation that they must repent

Some obviously will [Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7; 14:13; 20:4 [those beheaded]

You scripture picked those who will follow the beast ..... and these will not repent [Revelation 9:20-21; 14:9-11]

Revelation 9:20-21 will happen before Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 when the man of sin will be revealed ... There will be no rapture of the Church before the Tribulation, thus the warning in Revelation 14:9-11

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Where in scripture do we find a temporary changing into immortality and then back to mortal? That theory will not work.

I suspect Dougg's response may be something along the lines of, "Jesus' transfiguration"? I mean, I get where you're coming from and I also support a pre-trib position but it doesn't seem necessary to suggest that such a thing didn't happen.

The first few lines of your opening paragraph were fine in themselves. John was "called up" or "taken in the spirit" etc to be shown a vision. It comes across as forced to say that John's "going up hither" was a reference to a pre trib rapture and I think your opening statements deal nicely with that issue.

 

[Straightshot]

"Revelation 9:20-21 will happen before Revelation 12 and Revelation 13"

Prove this with scripture first RB .... then we will talk about the rest of what you said

 

[Charlie24]

"The tribulation will not be a time when the unbelievers will repent"


Wrong again.... repentance is a requirement for one's salvation

The Lord specifically tells those of the apostate "church" that when spews them out of His mouth and into the tribulation that they must repent

Some obviously will [Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7; 14:13; 20:4 [those beheaded]

You scripture picked those who will follow the beast ..... and these will not repent [Revelation 9:20-21; 14:9-11]

This tells me that you do not know your Bible well enough and this allows for you to be deceived by false teachers

Get to the task of reading the Lord's Word for yourself and stop handing off your fate to the preteristic/post-tribulation teachers .... while you still have time

That's right SS! This entire arguement is based on the post-trib's belief that the Church has replaced Israel.

That is concrete proof they do not understand the word of God. They haven't even read the bible far enough to realize that Israel is reinstated to where God originally planned for them be.

If you don't understand the purpose of the great tribulation, which centers around Israel, you will be carried off to fables and deceived.

 

[Straightshot]

" It comes across as forced to say that John's "going up hither" was a reference to a pre trib rapture and I think your opening statements deal nicely with that issue."


John's spirit was taken up to be shown the things hereafter [Revelation 1:19; 4:1] .... this experiencce was not the pre-tribulation "rapture"

He was not made immortal with his experience, and he is one of the dead in Christ as we speak

He will not be made immortal until the Lord calls for His true ecclesia .... this event is still pending

 

[Straightshot]

"That's right SS! This entire arguement is based on the post-trib's belief that the Church has replaced Israel.

That is concrete proof they do not understand the word of God. They haven't even read the bible far enough to realize that Israel is reinstated to where God originally planned for them be.

If you don't understand the purpose of the great tribulation, which centers around Israel, you will be carried off to fables and deceived."


Correct .... and one will find that every post-tribulation thinker is a replacement theologist just as those who follow preteristic thinking

.... that the Lord is finished with His national people Israel and that their religious affiliation has become the "new" Israel

The post-tribulation idea is actually built upon replacement theology

And this perverted thinking, when uncovered, falls to the ground

 

[Charlie24]

"That's right SS! This entire arguement is based on the post-trib's belief that the Church has replaced Israel.

That is concrete proof they do not understand the word of God. They haven't even read the bible far enough to realize that Israel is reinstated to where God originally planned for them be.

If you don't understand the purpose of the great tribulation, which centers around Israel, you will be carried off to fables and deceived."


Correct .... and one will find that every post-tribulation thinker is a replacement theologist

.... that the Lord is finished with His national people and that they have become Israel

The post-tribulation idea is actually built upon replacement theology

And this perverted thinking, when uncovered, falls to the ground

If these folks would study the bible as you suggested, they would be able to see this.

It's willful ignorance on their part, and God is not pleased with it.

 

[Straightshot]

"It's willful ignorance on their part, and God is not pleased with it"


From Genesis to Revelation

[Genesis 12:1-3; Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 20:34-44; 38; 39; Daniel 9:24-27; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Revelation 2:9; 3:9; 12]

And when confronted with today's evidence of a returned remnant of Israel to the land in the Middle East right in front of their faces today, they resort to pure folly by telling that those in Israel today are "fake Jews"

.... this is a total cop out and a pathetic excuse needed to protect the dogma of the replacement theology ruse

The Lord is a Jew Himself by His humanity .... and still is .... this they conveniently forget

Israel has been returned for a purpose .... to fulfill the Lord's more sure word of prophecy .... which is on the brink

 

[Luke17:37]

What did the Lord mean when He said "to watch and be ready." Did He mean to dig out an underground bunker and round up all the food possible to help fed the starving? Did He mean to be ready to give your life for the faith? Did He mean to gather weapons to fight the anti-christ?
Or was He talking to Israel who rejects the New Testament and has no clue of what is coming? We believe and know the scripture says Christ will come at the second coming and destroy the anti-christ, ending the great tribulation, they do not.

Here's the problem with post-trib theory! Christ is not talking to the believers, He's talking to Israel! And here's the other problem, the folks who push post-trib refuse to believe that every single end-time prophesy is centered around the nation of Israel. That's why they will never understand.

Matthew 24 and 25 and all
end times prophecies are to Israel only? So you think the Jewish disciples will be left to face Tribulation alone while the Gentiles fly away? And if you say they are unbelievers, then who exactly was He warning not to be deceived by false Christs, false prophets, and false returns of Christ? Who was He encouraging to endure in their faith (Matthew 24:13) if they didn't already have faith in Him, in contrast to the many who fall away for various reasons (Matthew 24:9-12)? Who are the servants of the master? The disciples were Israelites but they were believers.

Is the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) for Israel only? It was given to His Jewish disciples. Jesus said, "And surely I will be with you always, even to the very end of the age." Isn't that a call and promise to every generation of disciples?

 

[miknik5]

Immortality is really not "OUR HOPE"

There is a greater "HOPE" in us

If we kept our eyes on THAT HOPE we will have Nothing to fear

 

[Luke17:37]

The trumpet that Paul speaks of in 1Thes. 4 is not the 7th trumpet of Rev.

John had not written the Revelation of Jesus Christ at this time and the Thes. church would have no knowledge of it. Paul knew through his own revelation from Christ (which he writes about) what would happen in the last days, but not one time did he tell the church they would suffer this wrath. In fact, he told them "for we are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1Thes. 5:9

Paul was speaking to the church of what would befall them. The trumpet he speaks of is the closing of the church age when the true church is taken out of the way.

But the words of the Bible were written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not by the human will/reasoning of Paul or John or anyone else.

 

[Charlie24]

Matthew 24 and 25 and all
end times prophecies are to Israel only? So you think the Jewish disciples will be left to face Tribulation alone while the Gentiles fly away? And if you say they are unbelievers, then who exactly was He warning not to be deceived by false Christs, false prophets, and false returns of Christ? Who was He encouraging to endure in their faith (Matthew 24:13) if they didn't already have faith in Him, in contrast to the many who fall away for various reasons (Matthew 24:9-12)? Who are the servants of the master? The disciples were Israelites but they were believers.

Is the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) for Israel only? It was given to His Jewish disciples. Jesus said, "And surely I will be with you always, even to the very end of the age." Isn't that a call and promise to every generation of disciples?

Do you believe that God has always had a remnant of believing Jews? If so, place that in the answer box.

 

[Luke17:37]

When you come to realize the purpose of the great tribulation, which is to redeem Israel first and foremost, you will see that His "wrath has come" on all the unbelieving.

There is absolutely no mention of the church being on earth during the tribulation, most certainly it would be mentioned if that were the case, sir.

Sure there is. They just aren't referred to as "church." If you want, you can count how many times you can find references to Christ followers in Revelation 6-18, by context or by words such as "saints."

 

[Luke17:37]

Do you believe that God has always had a remnant of believing Jews? If so, place that in the answer box.

I had a lot of good questions and you blew them off.