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Psalm3704

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Matthew 27:52-53 The Blible does not say what have happened to these OT saints who have resurrected ...

Did you bother to read the scripture you posted? It tells you exactly what happened to the OT saints after they were resurrected.

Matthew 27:52-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.


-Do you notice that 1 Corinthians 15:23 clearly say that all those who are in Christ will rise at HIS COMING .... it does not say that they will rise before the tribulation....there is no mention of a 'special coming of Jesus before the tribulation '

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It does not say they will be raise after the tribulation too. Jesus does not return to earth after the tribulation. After the tribulation, the a/c, his army and all the wicked sinners are dead. Who do you think ends the tribulation? When Jesus descends from heaven coming to earth, the world is a mess and filled with evil. The world is not a paradise when He comes.

Do you know the difference between Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 24:29-31?









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miknik5

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Did you bother to read the scripture you posted? It tells you exactly what happened to the OT saints after they were resurrected.

Matthew 27:52-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.




It does not say they will be raise after the tribulation too. Jesus does not return to earth after the tribulation. After the tribulation, the a/c, his army and all the wicked sinners are dead. Who do you think ends the tribulation? When Jesus descends from heaven coming to earth, the world is a mess and filled with evil. The world is not a paradise when He comes.

Do you know the difference between Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 24:29-31?









.
Which is why those who do not belong to Him are destroyed at the brightness of His Coming
 
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Straightshot

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My comment

Briefly ..................

When a mans dies his spirit is returned to his Maker and kept for further dispatching

.... the biblical view is that one is asleep [in death] and will awake at a future time for the Lord's handling

No man has gone to the heavenly state of immortality except the One who has come down from heaven, Jesus Christ

.... and the spirit of dead man knows nothing about time passing until the man is awakened at the Lord's next intervention still pending as we speak

His very next intervention will be to call His true ecclesia to immortality .... both the dead in Christ and the living will be made immortal together at the same moment

Then He will bring His unprecedented wrath and judgment upon a world that has refused to believe the truth about Him

It is during this period that His true immortal ecclesia are seen in heaven during the tribulation, and these will participate at the battle of Armageddon at the ending of the tribulation and rule with Him over His 1000 year millennial kingdom upon the earth

Satan will be sent to the abyss where he cannot deceive the mortals of this kingdom, but then he will be released to cause another human rebellion against the Lord at the ending

Then the Lord will quickly put down the rebellion

Next, He will judge all of the spirits of the human dead who have rejected Him and destroy them in His consuming lake of fire

And then His eternal kingdom with new heavens and a new earth will come

The schedule above is the exact scriptural rendering and not difficult to understand

I should not have to note the related scriptures because anyone who has a fairly in depth understanding of His Word knows them

What men have done is to manipulate and distort the same by rearranging the sequence and by interpretive methodologies using selected metaphor and allegory to adjust the related scriptures when the literal interpretation does not fit their agendas

This practice is done in order to make the related scriptures on the matter to fit preconceived dogmas made by the men who have created
them

The strategy is to build proprietary man made religions for deceiving the memberships and holding them for self serving objectives

The token resurrection that took place along with the Lord's was for the purpose of authenticating the same .... there is no further explanation of their destiny after their appearing with in the context of the passage of scripture

Since their are no contradictions in the Lord's Word, these must have been returned to their "sleeping" in death to wait for the Lord's next intervention [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-38; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]
 
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miknik5

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This thread is confusion. None know with a clear matter of fact conscience and none are giving clear definitive backup supported by the scripture to prove without a doubt their stance

Which is why Christ by His Word to His body then, Hus body today, and His body tomorrow to be ready is sufficient
 
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Riberra

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Did you bother to read the scripture you posted? It tells you exactly what happened to the OT saints after they were resurrected.

Matthew 27:52-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
-they went into the holy city and appeared to many.-

What have happened to them after that is not mentioned.


It does not say they will be raise after the tribulation too.
The text say UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS.
Jesus does not return to earth after the tribulation. After the tribulation, the a/c, his army and all the wicked sinners are dead. Who do you think ends the tribulation? When Jesus descends from heaven coming to earth, the world is a mess and filled with evil. The world is not a paradise when He comes.
Lot of confusion in your reply, you say that Jesus does not return to Earth after the tribulation which is totally wrong Matthew 24:29-31














.[/QUOTE]
 
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Riberra

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My comment

Briefly ..................

When a mans dies his spirit is returned to his Maker and kept for further dispatching

.... the biblical view is that one is asleep [in death] and will awake at a future time for the Lord's handling
No man has gone to the heavenly state of immortality except the One who has come down from heaven, Jesus Christ

.... and the spirit of dead man knows nothing about time passing until the man is awakened at the Lord's next intervention still pending as we speak
Which mean that every time that John describe a group of people in Heaven John is referring to the SOULS/SPIRIT of DEAD believers who will awake at a future time for the Lord's handling.

His very next intervention will be to call His true ecclesia to immortality .... both the dead in Christ and the living will be made immortal together at the same moment
The Bible clearly state that this will happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD
1 Thessalonians 4:15.....AT HIS COMING 1 Corinthians 15:23 .....NOT BEFORE.

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
 
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Straightshot

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"Which mean that every times that John describe a group of people in Heaven John is referring to the SOULS/SPIRIT of DEAD people who will awake at a future time for the Lord's handling."


These are not dead people RB, these are the immortals of His true ecclesia seen during the tribulation [Revelation 3;10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

And these will get there just before the tribulation begins [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9]

There are no people in heaven now RB, neither have any been there .... all are waiting, dead or alive

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven .... Jesus Christ
 
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Riberra

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These are not dead people RB,
I said these are the SOULS of dead believers in Heaven.
Example
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
these are the immortals of His true ecclesia seen during the tribulation [Revelation 3;10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

Lot of confusion in your present post....Just before you wrote this:
When a mans dies his spirit is returned to his Maker and kept for further dispatching

.... the biblical view is that one is asleep [in death] and will awake at a future time for the Lord's handling
When a believers dies his spirit/SOUL is returned to his Maker in HEAVEN.
 
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Straightshot

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You still don't get it RB

A man's body is what perishes .... but a man's spirit is returned to the Lord who made it

The man's spirit is not dead .... and has not perished

And his spirit knows nothing about time passing on the earth .... only in the physical body is a man consciously aware

His next moment of consciousness will be at the Lord's future calling .... not before

And if he is one of the Lord's true ecclesia he will be awakened and given an immortal/eternal body [1 Corinthians 15:51-58] .... at this juncture [Revelation 3:10] ..... just before the tribulation

And if not, the spirit of the man will awake to this [Revelation 20:11-15] .... but after the tribulation and the Lord's 1000 year millennial kingdom upon the earth .... but not before

Now I think that you are playing word games for some reason, and this will not work with me

So take your arguments else where
 
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Riberra

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You still don't get it RB

A man's body is what perishes .... but a man's spirit is returned to the Lord who made it
The man's spirit is not dead .... and has not perished
Where did i said otherwise ?

His next moment of consciousness will be at the Lord's future calling .... not before. And if he is one of the Lord's true ecclesia he will be awakened and given an immortal/eternal body [1 Corinthians 15:51-58] ...at this juncture [Revelation 3:10]
The Bible say,At the First Resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6


And if not, the spirit of the man will awake to this [Revelation 20:11-15] .... but after the tribulation and the Lord's 1000 year millennial kingdom upon the earth .... but not before
True.
 
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miknik5

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RB

There are souls in heaven and absent from the body IS present with the Lord

God will not allow His Holy One to see decay (but we will decay, our flesh is not imperishable) nor will He abandon our souls to the grave

You mentioned the souls under the altar

And those seen in heaven by John with white garments why the white garments and what are they exactly waiting for?
 
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Straightshot

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The Bible say,At the First Resurrection."

Understand that "first" means the resurrection to immortality .... there are more than one of these events scheduled in scripture .... the Lord's, His pre-tribulation ecclesia, His two prophets, and for those who will become believers during the tribulation and martyred [these will have to wait until the end of the tribulation]

The "second" type of resurrection is the one to the second death of an unbeliever's spirit .... and there is only one of these scheduled at the ending of the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth
 
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Riberra

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The Bible say,At the First Resurrection."

Understand that "first" means the resurrection to immortality .... there are more than one of these events scheduled in scripture .... the Lord's, His pre-tribulation ecclesia, His two prophets, and for those who will become believers during the tribulation and martyred [these will have to wait until the end of the tribulation]
You don't seem to see that the First (massive) resurrection of the believers will happen at the same time that the resurrection of the believers who will be beheaded during the tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6

Jesus is the firstfruits ;afterward those who are in Christ AT HIS COMING.You have invented a pre-trubulation resurrection of the dead believers who is not mentioned in the Bible.
1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 
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Psalm3704

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The text say UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS.

And I'll tell you again, Jesus does not come to earth after the tribulation. He descends from heaven heading to Armageddon during the tribulation on the 7th year. This is NOT after the tribulation.

Armageddon is not fought after the tribulation. The a/c does not die after the tribulation. The tribulation does not end with the a/c still alive. Armageddon occurs at the 6th vial. You still got the 7th vial before the end of the tribulation.

Revelation 16:12-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs comingout of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.


Lot of confusion in your reply, you say that Jesus does not return to Earth after the tribulation which is totally wrong Matthew 24:29-31

No, you're the one totally wrong. Matthew 24:29-31 is describing Jesus already on earth after He defeated the a/c and ended the tribulation. Read it carefully! In Matthew 24:29-31, it said He comes on many clouds.

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Luke 21:25-28 is when Jesus is coming to earth, during the tribulation at the 6th vial on a cloud to Armageddon. This is not after the tribulation.

Luke 21:25-28 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Jesus is coming to destroy the a/c with the brightness of His coming. How will He do that with any clouds covering Him?

Look at verse 26, it said "men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken." This means the tribulation is not over and the worst part of the tribulation is yet to come.

Look at verse 28, it said "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” Your redemption draws near means the tribulation is not over but soon.

______________________________________

It's also confirmed in Revelation 19:11-21 and Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 when Jesus leaves heaven coming to earth, He goes straight to Armageddon to defeat the a/c and end the war. This is not after the tribulation.

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.


1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.


Revelation 19 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servantsshed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”

6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

___________________________________

When Jesus leaves heaven coming to earth, He doesn't circle the globe for a cameo appearance for everyone to see Him. He immediately descends down to the Valley of Megiddo where Armageddon will be fought. The rest of the world cannot see Him coming yet. If you're living on the other side of the world, you're not gonna see Him descend upon Armageddon. Only those in the Middle east will see Him coming before the end of the tribulation. That's what Luke 21:25-28 is telling us when He comes on "a" cloud heading to Armageddon.

After the a/c is defeated is when He'll be coming on many clouds to extinguish all the firestorms from the nuclear war in the Middle East. The kind that produces 100 pound hails: the 7th vial.

Now is when the tribulation as He is coming on many clouds.

Hosea 6:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;

He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.



Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

________________________________________

So this nonsense about a post-trib rapture where Jesus descends from heaven and raptures the church after the tribulation just falls apart at the seam as Jesus doesn't come to earth after the tribulation. He comes near the end of the tribulation and ends the war.

Riberra, who do you think defeats the a/c and ends the war if Jesus comes after the tribulation? There be no one left on earth (no flesh saved: Matthew 24:22) if Jesus doesn't come before the end.

________________________________________

By the way Riberra. Do you see a rapture in Revelation 19 when Jesus leaves heaven coming to earth?

You won't find a rapture there because John told us the church is already in heaven celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb in Revelation 19:9.


So was John being complacent or lazy and forgot to mention a rapture or a resurrection? No he did not, John was thorough in detail. He mentioned a resurrection of the dead in-Christ that died during the tribulation in Revelation 20:4.

Bottom line. No post-trib rapture during the second coming.












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Psalm3704

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Which is why those who do not belong to Him are destroyed at the brightness of His Coming

Correct.

And welcome to the Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum of CF. Haven't seen you here prior to this week.






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Riberra

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By the way Riberra. Do you see a rapture in Revelation 19 when Jesus leaves heaven coming to earth?

You won't find a rapture there because John told us the church is already in heaven celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb in Revelation 19:9.
They are already in Heaven because these are the SOULS of the believers whose bodies are in the graves ..The reason the marriage is mentioned only in Revelation 19 is because they needed to wait the last martyrs who were killed during the 42 months reign of the beast ....
The marriage supper of the Lamb will be celebrated on THE EARTH....it will include the Christians/Elect who have survived the tribulation.

Revelation 19:9
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
 
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Riberra

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There are souls in heaven and absent from the body IS present with the Lord

God will not allow His Holy One to see decay (but we will decay, our flesh is not imperishable) nor will He abandon our souls to the grave

You mentioned the souls under the altar
The altar of God is in Heaven as well as His throne.
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



And those seen in heaven by John with white garments why the white garments and what are they exactly waiting for?
They are the other Christians martyrs since the time of John who defined hiself as being part of the Tribulation ie the tribulation of the SAINTS MARTYRS...

That God decide that the time is come to avenge their blood.

Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
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Psalm3704

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They are already in Heaven because these are the SOULS of the believers whose bodies are in the graves ..The reason the marriage is mentioned only in Revelation 19 is because they needed to wait the last martyrs who were killed during the 42 months reign of the beast ....
The marriage supper of the Lamb will be celebrated on THE EARTH....it will include the Christians/Elect who have survived the tribulation.

Revelation 19:9
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Souls do not celebrate and partake in the marriage supper of the lamb. And nowhere in the bible does it say the marriage supper takes place on earth. And don't twist the bible even more but using Revelation 19:17-21 and Ezekiel 39:17-20 as your rebuttal. Those are for the birds.








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Riberra

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Souls do not celebrate and partake in the marriage supper of the lamb.
Jesus will bring the souls of the believers which are in Heaven with Him to be resurrected on the Earth where their body is.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. see Revelation 19:14

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (see Revelation 19:11-14) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


And nowhere in the bible does it say the marriage supper takes place on earth.
If the marriage supper is in Heaven ,can you explain how the Christians who will still be alive on the Earth will participate ?

Revelation 19:9
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
 
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