Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Riberra]

Not a good example to prove your point RB .... as Paul explains .... the early "church" thought they had missed His pre-tribulation call as they were taught [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18] .... because false teachers were telling them that the day of the Lord had already come .... the day of His wrath and judgment

Paul corrected their thinking by telling that they had not missed because the time of His judgment had not yet come .... no falling away and no man of lawlessness was evident in their day

That their gathering would come first [2 Thessalonians 2:1]

Paul clearly explain in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 that their (our) gathering is TIED to the COMING OF JESUS.
2 Thessalonians 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND by our gathering together unto him,

Paul say nothing about a gathering BEFORE the man of sin is revealed .
2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Straightshot]

"Paul say nothing about a gathering BEFORE the man of sin is revealed"

He certainly does [2 Thessalonians 2:1] .... and reassures the early Christians that they had not missed the gathering that they were concerned about [Revelation 3:10]

False teachers of the day were telling that the Day of the Lord had already come, and Paul tells the the Thessalonians that it had not come .... so they had not missed the gathering [the Lord's call to immortalize them]

The world was not yet in the tribulation in that day .... and the man of lawlessness was not present

Now if you cannot understand this it is your problem .... you always try to wiggle out of the truth on this matter for some reason .... check your condition

 

[Charlie24]

Paul told the Thessalonian church not to worry that the Day of the Lord (resurrection) was about to take place. There must be a falling away first, and that man of sin revealed, 2Thes. 1-3.

Then he said concerning the falling away that "he" must be taken out of the way AND THEN shall that man of sin be revealed. 2Thes. 7-8.

The falling away is not apostasy, it is a "he," it is a restrainer that is preventing the anti-christ's appearing. There is no power on earth that can hold back the forces of evil, but the Holy Spirit. The "he" is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit lives in the believer and restrains evil through the believer. The falling away is the departure of the church.

 

[miknik5]

Paul told the Thessalonian church not to worry that the Day of the Lord (resurrection) was about to take place. There must be a falling away first, and that man of sin revealed, 2Thes. 1-3.

Then he said concerning the falling away that "he" must be taken out of the way AND THEN shall that man of sin be revealed. 2Thes. 7-8.

The falling away is not apostasy, it is a "he," it is a restrainer that is preventing the anti-christ's appearing. There is no power on earth that can hold back the forces of evil, but the Holy Spirit. The "he" is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit lives in the believer and restrains evil through the believer. The falling away is the departure of the church.

I think "when HE who holds all things back is "taken out of the way" is sufficient

The "falling away" means exactly that. Falling away...some will get tired of waiting and will go out and do things they were told not to do. (Luke 12) and Truth will be cast down, and the love of many will grow cold sir...even natural love will be cast down...

And this "falling away" indicates that those who walked with Him will desert the faith and will fall away.

And still He who holds all things back is NOT taken out if the way until these things happen

 

[miknik5]

1Corinthians 1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Now continue with
2Thesselonians 2 in context to Paul's letter to this church that they should PATIENTLY WAIT...even while in troubles and tribulation:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The Lord will lift His restraint against Satan and his ambition when He is ready [Revelation 12:12]

And when the unbelieving world is ripe for judgment and the professing "church" is of extreme apostasy .... the Lord will purposely lift His restraint and allow for Satan's full blown visitation for a short period of time

The Lord will do this in order to punish those who have refused to believe the truth about Him .... and then He will turn on the devil and ultimately destroy Him [Revelation 17:16-18; 20:10]

 

[miknik5]

My comment

The Lord will lift His restraint against Satan and his ambition when He is ready [Revelation 12:12]

And when the unbelieving world is ripe for judgment and the professing "church" is of extreme apostasy .... the Lord will purposely lift His restraint and allow for Satan's full blown visitation for a short period of time

The Lord will do this in order to punish those who have refused to believe the truth about Him .... and then He will turn on the devil and ultimately destroy Him [Revelation 17:16-18; 20:10]

Where will His Body be during this falling away?

That has been the question.
Which of course while HE is in the world than those of His Spirit are in the world convicting the world of sin

For that is what the Spirit of God does. Testifies to the Truth, glorifies The son of God and Convicts the world of sin

 

[Riberra]

Paul clearly explain in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 that their (our) gathering is TIED to the COMING OF JESUS.
2 Thessalonians 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND by our gathering together unto him,

Paul say nothing about a gathering BEFORE the man of sin is revealed but the exact opposite of what you claim:
2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

He certainly does [2 Thessalonians 2:1] .... and reassures the early Christians that they had not missed the gathering that they were concerned about [Revelation 3:10]

John had not even written the Book of Revelation when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians 2

There are pre-tribbers who even see a rapture to Heaven before the Tribulation in Titus 2:13

Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

When placed in context you can see that our blessed hope is the Coming of Jesus in glory.There is no mention of a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation.

Titus 2King James Version (KJV)

2 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

[Straightshot]

"John had not even written the Book of Revelation when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians 2'


This kind of a statement reflects little understanding of the Lord's Word

All scripture is God breathed .... and the Lord is the Author of all of it .... not Paul or John

These two only conveyed His revealings and the order makes no difference

.... for He knows the ending before the beginning

All of the prophetic word is specifically His .... it makes no difference which man recorded His revealings, or in what order

 

[Straightshot]

"Where will His Body be during this falling away?"


You will have to expand on this .... what do you mean by "His Body"?

 

[Riberra]

"Paul say nothing about a gathering BEFORE the man of sin is revealed"

He certainly does [2 Thessalonians 2:1] ....

It seem evident that you have been brainwash by the pre-tribulation rapture doctors (false teachers)who abound in the protestants Church's of today.

2 Thessalonians 2:1

2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[miknik5]

"Where will His Body be during this falling away?"


You will have to expand on this .... what do you mean by "His Body"?

His body are those who are born of His Spirit who are His Bride

What other body would I be referring to?

 

[Straightshot]

Now that you have clarified .......

The "falling away" is already in process and has been even in the early "church"

This behavior is rampant today .... there are very few of the Lord's true ecclesia at the present time

Most of the professing "church" is apostate

Not only that, but the balance of the entire human population on the earth has walked off and has no connection with the Lord and does not want the same [Romans 1:16-21]

When the Lord decides He will end the adding to His "church" and then He will suddenly bring His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world that has refused to believe the truth about Him [Romans 11:25]

So when the "falling away" has reached His tolerance, then the day of His vengeance will begin .... and it is this coming period that will see the rising of the man of lawlessness

The Lord will lift His restraint against Satan's designs .... and since the unbelieving world has rejected Him, He will give them the devil

Where will His true ecclesia be when His executes the beginning of His judgment? .... both the dead in Christ and the living at the time will be made immortal just before [2 Thessalonians 2:1]

Then shall the lawless on be revealed whose coming is after the workings of the devil [2 Thessalonians 2:3-12; Revelation 12:12]

And because the whole world has refused His truth, He will send strong delusion upon them so that they will believe the lie

 

[Riberra]

Where will His true ecclesia be when His executes the beginning of His judgment? .... both the dead in Christ and the living at the time will be made immortal just before [2 Thessalonians 2:1]

The FIRST Resurrection will happen UNTO the Coming of Jesus Revelation 19 Revelation 20 .The FIRST Resurrection will include the believers who will be beheaded during the 42 months reign of the beast Revelation 20:4-6

You have ZERO verse saying that the FIRST Resurrection will occur BEFORE the Tribulation.

Can you tell us what is your blessed hope Straightshot ?

 

[Psalm3704]

You have ZERO verse saying that the FIRST Resurrection will occur BEFORE the Tribulation.

The first resurrection already started 2000 years ago. The first resurrection consist of several stages of resurrection spanning over the last 2000 years of those in-Christ to be with Him.

Here's your verse Riberra. The first of the first resurrection happened in Matthew 27:50-53. Jesus died on the cross and gave up His spirit. Immediately following Him were the bodies of the old testament saints who were also resurrected.

Matthew 27:50-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

Again, the first resurrection occurs in several stages (just like Christ's return). First in Matthew 27:50-53, next is the rapture of the church for all faithful believers in-Christ: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, then finally those that dies during the tribulation who are beheaded by the a/c: Revelation 20:4.

The second resurrection are those resurrected by God to appear before the Great White Throne and be judged by God. Revelation 20:11-15.

The first resurrection belongs to Jesus who will rewards those in-Christ. The second resurrection belongs to God who will decide where the sinners and unbelievers will be for all eternity.

__________________________________________________________________

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

For once this lousy website got something right. LOL!





.

 

[Charlie24]

That is true, there are stages of the first resurrection. The rapture of the church is signified in the book of Revleation.
Chapter 3 ends with the letters to the churches, chapter 6 presents the beginning of the great tribulation. Chapters 4 and 5 signify the rapture of the church and the glory given to Christ.

Rev. 4:1-2
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

This is the rapture of the church before the great tribulation begins. The door to heaven is opened and the trumpet calls the saints.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of believers. It takes place before the tribulation (the resurrection of the church), during the tribulation (the resurrection of the 144,000), and after the tribulation (the resurrection of the martyred saints).

At the rapture of the church, every saint from the beginning of time will meet Christ in the air. All these who are a part of the first rresurrection will receive glorified bodies as Christ received at His resurrection.

The martyred saints are those who repented and accepted Christ during the tribulation at the preaching of the 144,000 and possibly the 2 witnnesses.

 

[Riberra]

____

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

For once this lousy website got something right. LOL!

Christ was the firstfruits and some of the OT Saints who have raised Matthew 27:52-53 The Blible does not say what have happened to these OT saints who have resurrected ...
-Do you notice that 1 Corinthians 15:23 clearly say that all those who are in Christ will rise at HIS COMING .... it does not say that they will rise before the tribulation....there is no mention of a 'special coming of Jesus before the tribulation '

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Riberra]

That is true, there are stages of the first resurrection.

Wrong ---Christ is the firstfruits ---- afterward they that are in Christ's at His Coming.

-Do you notice that 1 Corinthians 15:23 clearly say that all those who are in Christ will rise at HIS COMING .... it does not say that they will rise before the tribulation....there is no mention of a 'special coming of Jesus before the tribulation to rise those in Christ'

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Straightshot]

What RB does not understand is that the Lord's next intervention will consist of His call for the dead in Christ and the living at the time [Revelation 1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 3:10]

He will then continue on with His judging an unbelieving world [the tribulation] which will last for 1260 days+1260 days+30 days [Daniel 8:14; 9:24-27; 12:7-12; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

He is the One who will met out His wrath upon a world that has refused to believe the truth about Him [Psalms 2; Revelation 6:12-17] .... this time period will consist of the 70th week decreed for Israel +30 days for the battle of Armageddon [Ezekiel 38; 39; Zechariah 14:1-4; Revelation 14:14-17; 19:11-21]

The Lord does not come and go, but is omnipresent [Revelation 5:5-6] .... He is present right now and can appear and disappear at will .... so the world will not see Him bringing His judgment events upon the earth of which there will be many [Revelation 6:1-17; chapters 8 - 19] .... He is the one who opens the seals of His unprecedented wrath bringing the judgments upon the earth through His angels

He will also guide the 144000 sealed of Israel [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7] during the tribulation who will spread the news of the gospel of His millennial kingdom [Matthew 24:14] .... which will begin just after the days of the tribulation [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46; Revelation 20:1-6]

So the world will not see His visible appearance upon the earth during His unprecedented judgment until just after the days of the tribulation

RB is a replacement theologist who does not see the Lord's continued relationship with His nation of Israel .... RB believes that Israel has been replace by his "church'' organization

Neither does RB see the breach in the scope of the prophetic visions between the ending of the 69th week decreed for Israel .... and the beginning of the 70th in which there are no recorded prophetic events

Because of this he fails to recognize that the Lord has set Israel out as an ensign to the nations, past, present, and at the future time of the end

The 70th week decreed for Israel is the same as the coming tribulation period and since RB does not understand the duration of this coming time frame, he is placing the Lord's next intervention at the end of the tribulation rather than at the beginning

He also does not understand that it is Jesus Christ who will execute the coming tribulation period which will last for 2550 days .... then He will appear visibly and in the open to the survivors upon the earth of the period

So He will only intervene once to execute a number of events upon the earth of which will take time before He appears to bring His millennial kingdom upon the earth

RB will simply not consider this setting as presented in the prophetic scriptures because of what he has been taught by his particular religion .... a very difficult ruse to break

 

[Riberra]

What RB does not understand is that the Lord's next intervention will consist of His call for the dead in Christ and the living at the time [Revelation 1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 3:10]

The Lord's next intervention in a still unknown future time will be the great worldwide earthquake of the 6th seal Revelation 6:12-14 who will reset our civilization and will lead in the years afterward -- to the creation of the prophesied 10 worldwide Kingdoms.

RB will simply not consider this setting as presented in the prophetic scriptures because of what he has been taught by his particular religion .... a very difficult ruse to break

You preach dispensation theology about one destiny for Israel and a separate destiny for the Church ....The gospel of Jesus is founded on the New Covenant His True Church INCLUDE BOTH Jews and gentiles BELIEVERS In CHRIST.