Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Charlie24]

Paul told them in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 that our gathering unto Jesus is tied to the Coming of Jesus ,and than that day of the Coming of Jesus and our gathering unto him WILL NOT COME except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
THAT mean that the CHURCH will be on the EARTH WHEN the MAN of SIN will be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,

Notice 2Thes. 2:1
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him"

Paul says "by our gathering" this is the gathering of the church, that is, the true believers. The gathering of Matt. 24:31 from the four corners of earth is not the church, these are the ones who were saved during the tribulation and were not killed by the anti-christ, mainly it refers to Israel who has just been saved, and I speak of the entire nation of Israel.

Paul says "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" this could refer to the rapture or the second coming, but Paul specifies "and by our gathering together unto Him." He is specifically speaking of the church gathering unto Him, "our gathering."

Paul is saying, concerning the rapture of the church, don't be troubled and don't be deceived that the second coming is taking place. We will be taken first and then the man of sin revealed, which the Lord will destroy. Don't you remember I told you these things before?

Paul is making it clear that the church will be gathered unto Him before the second coming!

Again I remind you, Paul is speaking of the true church here, and only what becomes of the church.

 

[Charlie24]

It is not Gods wrath that these will suffer sir which is why Christ forewarned HIS body to "overcome" by remaining faithful and not to "go out"

All things are under His Sivereign control and all things are working out for the good of those who love HIM and are called according to HIS purpose

We may suffer at the hands of wicked men but it isn't by Gods hand which is why it is important to wait and keep our garments with us and to not "go out"


Not by power or by might Sayeth the Lord but by My Spirit

That means we have to trust that all things are under His sovereign control even when and while things look so out of control

When you come to realize the purpose of the great tribulation, which is to redeem Israel first and foremost, you will see that His "wrath has come" on all the unbelieving.

There is absolutely no mention of the church being on earth during the tribulation, most certainly it would be mentioned if that were the case, sir.

 

[Straightshot]

"But mainly I'd like people to comment on what he means by "after the tribulation of those days will they see the sign of the son of man in heaven etc" because it sounds to me like he's describing his return for the saints who have just passed through the Great Tribulation. He even talks about his angels being sent out to gather his elect at the sound of a trumpet (i.e the last trumpet of the tribulation?)"


Here is your answer

Understand that the Lord will intervene to bring His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world that has refused to believe the truth about Him [He did the same thing by the flood of Noah's day]

The dead in Christ and those living at the time will not be subjected to His judgment of the tribulation period [Revelation 3:10] .... these will be made immortal just before and will observe the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

Once the tribulation begins there will be those who will turn and believe during the period [Revelation 6:9-11; 7:1-8; 13:7; 14:13; 14:1-7]

Some will be killed and others will survive the days of the tribulation as mortals

Those killed [martyred] for their faith will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation .... and the mortal survivors will be gathered and will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth

It is this gathering when the Lord will appear to the survivors of the tribulation [He will not be seen during the period of His wrath]

So He will come with His judgment [Revelation 6:12-17] and then appear just after

The gathering of the mortal survivors just after the days of His vengeance will not be a resurrection of anyone: for Israel [Matthew 24:29-31], for the Gentiles of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46]

I would suggest that you restudy the related verses with Revelation's unfolding against the above backdrop .... hopefully you will see the fitment

Know that the Lord is always present [Revelation 5:5-6] .... He is as we speak .... but you just cannot see Him .... He can appear and disappear at will

If you have further reasonable questions I will answer

 

[Charlie24]

If you want to know what happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days" read Ezekiel 38 and 39. It's the battle of Armageddon. It's when Christ comes to defeat the anti-christ who has all but destroyed Israel. It's the reason for His coming, to save His chosen.

Zechariah gives us more insight as the what happens.

After Christ destroys the anti-christ, He will be standing on earth before Israel. They will know He is the Messiah but they will not know He is Jesus.

Zech. 13:6
"And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

They will see the nail scars in His hands wondering what happened. When Jesus tells them I was wounded in the house of my friends, they will instantly know it's Jesus.

Zechariah says there will be great mourning in Israel when they see the One they pierced. They will know Jesus was the Messiah all along and they killed Him.

Zech. 12:10-11
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 

[miknik5]

Finally we agree on something!

Here's the key to understanding what Paul wrote to the churchs at Thess, and Corinth, and what Jesus said in Matt. 24.

Paul is addressing the believing church and only the church. Jesus is addressing unbelieving Israel and only Israel.

Many believe "the thief in the night" refers to the rapture, it is not! Paul wrote of it, Peter and John wrote of it, and it always refers to the nation of Israel. It is always used in reference to the second coming. At the second coming Israel will be delivered from the anti-christ and will see their Messiah, this when "all of Israel will be saved" as Paul wrote. It will be a total and complete surpise for Israel when Christ delivers his chosen people. It will be as a thief in the night, unexpected.

Paul is speaking to the chuch and what will become of the church. The Thess. church thought the "Day of Christ" the second coming, was about to take place. This came from false doctrine. Paul assures them that certain things must take place before this can happen.

If it were meant for the church to go through the tribulation Paul would have told them. But what does he say? He says, we (the church) are not appointed to wrath, then he tells them to comfort one another with these words.

When you come to realize the purpose of the great tribulation, which is to redeem Israel first and foremost, you will see that His "wrath has come" on all the unbelieving.

There is absolutely no mention of the church being on earth during the tribulation, most certainly it would be mentioned if that were the case, sir.

If you want to know what happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days" read Ezekiel 38 and 39. It's the battle of Armageddon. It's when Christ comes to defeat the anti-christ who has all but destroyed Israel. It's the reason for His coming, to save His chosen.

Zechariah gives us more insight as the what happens.

After Christ destroys the anti-christ, He will be standing on earth before Israel. They will know He is the Messiah but they will not know He is Jesus.

Zech. 13:6
"And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

They will see the nail scars in His hands wondering what happened. When Jesus tells them I was wounded in the house of my friends, they will instantly know it's Jesus.

Zechariah says there will be great mourning in Israel when they see the One they pierced. They will know Jesus was the Messiah all along and they killed Him.

Zech. 12:10-11
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

nope. Zechariah 13 is about those who thought they were prophets who weren't

There the ones who will be ashamed and will say of their wounds : "these are the wounds I received at the house of my friends"

 

[miknik5]

the purpose of the great tribulation is to get rid of the "woman in the basket" so as to cleanse the land and remove sin and false prophets in one day and to open up a fountain of cleanliness to the house of David (Judah) and The house of Jerusalem

 

[Charlie24]

nope. Zechariah 13 is about those who thought they were prophets who weren't

There the ones who will be ashamed and will say of their wounds : "these are the wounds I received at the house of my friends"

No, I'm afraid not!

Zech. 13:4-5 is the false prophets being ashamed of themselves and admitting they are not prophets of the Lord, they were deceivers. The Lord is on earth now and their will be no more false prophets.

Better read it again!

 

[Charlie24]

the purpose of the great tribulation is to get rid of the "woman in the basket" so as to cleanse the land and remove sin and false prophets in one day and to open up a fountain of cleanliness to the house of David (Judah) and The house of Jerusalem

Jesus came the first time to bring the Kingdom of God to the Jews. When the woman with a sick and dying child came believing Jesus would heal the child, Jesus said, it is not proper to throw to the dogs the childrens bread. He called her a dog because she was not a Jew. But she persisted, and Christ said, I have not seen such faith in all Israel, then He granted her wish.

When Jesus sent out the disciples to preach the kingdom of God and heal the sick, He told them to go only to the house of Israel. The Gentiles were left out until Christ was crucified. But He never turned His back on true faith.

Whether you want to believe it or not, Jesus came to give the kingdom of God to the Jews, and they to us Gentiles. But they rejected Him, and God chose the church to deliver the gospel to the world. Israel was God's first choice, and that hasn't changed.

At the second coming the priority will be Israel. For it is Israel that he will save from the anti-christ and bring back into the fold.

 

[miknik5]

First I am going back to Zechariah 13 and will not move forward from this until it is discussed.

I believe it is you who should reread it again

in fact please if you would be so kind let us paste all of Zechariah 13 so we can ALL read it again to see if these who are talking about their wounds are the lord or are those who used to "prophesy" in ignorance

 

[miknik5]

ZECHARIAH 13.

NO MORE PROPHETS. AND NO MORE "PROPHETS ALLOWED TO PROPHECY...for in that day the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters of the seas

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

5But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends

7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off anddie; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, ThE LORD is my God

 

[Charlie24]

ZECHARIAH 13.

NO MORE PROPHETS. AND NO MORE "PROPHETS ALLOWED TO PROPHECY...for in that day the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters of the seas

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

5But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends

7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off anddie; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, ThE LORD is my God

OK, now let's look for the truth of Zech. 13.

13:1
"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness."

This speaks of the beginning of the Kingdom Age, sin and uncleaness shall be taken away from Jerusalem. The Lord is ready for His reign on earth, the things of the past are over, it's a fresh start.

13:2
"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land."

No more idols, NO MORE FALSE PROPHETS, and no more demon spirits to lead the revolt against God.

13:3
"And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth."

You notice here there will be no more FALSE PROPHESY. They will be put to death if they do.

13:4
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:"

The prophets of old wore rough animal skins, as did John the Baptist. The false prophets also wore this type clothing to deceive the people in believing they were the prophet of God, but they were liars.
Of course this is a metaphor that must be updated to the future time of the Kingdom Age. At this time they will not be wearing rough clothing.

13:5
"But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth."

Because the Lord is now ruling the truth comes out. All these false prophets admit they were not called of God to preach and teach. They had been deceived by satan.

The setting of all this is at Jerusalem, the time is just after the tribulation and beginning the 1000 year reign of Christ, it is referring to the Jews. These false prophets are the leaders of Judaism. They have just met the Messiah and know they cannot lie and get away with it.

Now vs 6.
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

It is the leaders of Judaism that ask Christ this question. The self proclaimed prophets.

Jesus has just saved Israel from the anti-christ, He is standing there in Jerusalem with the Jews looking at Him. This is the moment of recognition, this is when they look upon the One whom they pierced. The first 5 verses of this chapter have not taken place yet, that takes place after they realize it's Jesus. All of Israel repents and makes Jesus their Messiah.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

John had not written the Revelation of Jesus Christ at this time and the Thes. church would have no knowledge of it. Paul knew through his own revelation from Christ (which he writes about) what would happen in the last days, but not one time did he tell the church they would suffer this wrath.

Hi Charlie. I think the Revelation itself makes a fairly clear distinction between tribulation and wrath There are the 7 trumpets of the tribulation, and the 7 vials of wrath. These are events which are described as affecting the whole world so it would make no sense for the tribulation and the wrath to happen at the same time. Tribulation is something all Christians will experience, 2 Timothy 3:12. Wrath is something specifically directed at God's enemies (Romans 1:18).

The trumpet he speaks of is the closing of the church age when the true church is taken out of the way.

Do you have any scriptural evidence to suggest that the trumpet he speaks of is the "closing of the church age"? Can you describe what the previous trumpets were, that caused Paul to specify a "last" trumpet? If that last trumpet, he describes a situation where we will all be changed, in a moment, the dead will be raised and we'll be given new bodies.

Compare that with Jesus' own reference to a trumpet and the gathering of his followers from the whole world. Compare that with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 where he again makes reference to a trumpet and the return of Jesus for his followers.

When you say that these trumpets are not referring the to the series of trumpets representing the great tribulation, it starts to sound forced.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Lol. No problem here
Thanks for reminding us of that "trumpet"

Yup.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Paul is addressing the believing church and only the church. Jesus is addressing unbelieving Israel and only Israel.

How do you decide which of Jesus' teachings are only for Christians, which are only for an unbelieving Israel, which are for a believing Israel and which are for all 3 or only 2 out of the 3?

For example, the chapter opens with Jesus talking to his disciples (i.e. followers of Jesus). There is nothing in the entire chapter which indicates that these are teachings/prophcies only for unbelieving Jews. I'm willing to consider that there is often more to prophecy than what is obvious on the surface, but a deeper examination of these prophecies does not lead me to conclude that only the unbelieving Jews will be called on to "endure to the end" or that only the unbelieving Jews should be ready to flee at a moments notice when God calls or that only unbelieving Jews will be called on to suffer and die for their faith.

When it comes to prophecy, no one has perfect understanding. We're all limited by various factors; cultural conditioning, societal influence, personal bias, spiritual maturity or immaturity, sincerity or stubbornness etc. I find that personal bias often plays a much larger role in how we interpret scripture than most of us realize. For example, the Bible was used to support slavery in America. Preachers would point to verses where Paul told slaves to obey their masters and say, "see, it's right there in the Bible!" Obviously, there's a lot of context to that example, but a personal bias caused those people to overlook the context.

Something similar happens with the prosperity gospel, where people use the Bible to justify their obscene wealth and greed. They find a verse where Paul talks about the riches of God's mercy and say, "See, it says right there, riches!" or they'll point to Solomon and say, "Solomon was rich and the whole Bible is the word of God therefore the Bible says it's okay to be filthy lucre rich". Their personal bias causes them to miss Jesus' comments where he talked about being greater than Solomon and then commented that Heaven belongs to the poor.

I believe something similar happens with the pre-trib rapture theory. It is popular because it represents a way out of suffering. Jesus cautioned us not to be afraid of what people can do to the body. He said we must be willing to take up our own cross. He said those who seek to gain their lives will lose them and those who seek to lose their lives will gain them.

But when you hear the arguments in favor of a pre-trib rapture, they all center around saving their lives, escaping trouble, avoiding what people can do to the body etc... All the arguments about scriptural evidence proving a pre-trib rapture comes across more so as a cloak to hide the underlying motivation behind Christians who desperately want to escape any kind of suffering for their faith.

I believe that God will not give us more than we can take and that there will be some measure of protection, but this idea that all believers will be suddenly whisked away from any need to make a stand for their faith just isn't consistent with the bigger picture of what I see in the teachings of Jesus. The Revelation talks about the saints overcoming the Beast by "loving not their lives even unto death". That, to me, is very much consistent with the message of Jesus. That is also how HE overcame the world. He was not a victim. He chose to lay down his life.

Will it be up to the Jews to show the world the power and love of Christ by laying down their lives to overcome the Beast while the Christians run away? Why should we think God would expect any less of us?

 

[Charlie24]

Thank you for the opportunity to explain my position on the trumpets. But first I would like to discuss the difference between tribulation and wrath.

It's true that all those in Christ will suffer tribulation, and on a daily basis. My pastor says that you are either in the fire of tribulation, coming out of it, or about to enter it.

If you remember the book of Job, how that God did not inflict the tribulation, but He allowed satan to do it. The tribulation we face as Christians does not come from God, it comes from satan. Wrath is a completely different story, it does come from God, but to the unbelieving. Those who are in Christ need not fear the wrath of God, He is on our side. Sometimes He allows the tribulation of satan to strengthen our faith, but only allows satan to go so far, as He did with Job. Remember when satan told God that Job had a hedge around him and he couldn't get in. That is the hedge that every born again saint of God has, but God will allow that hedge to be temporarily dropped for our benefit, to make us depend on Him instead of ourselves. Without that hedge that God provides, we have no defense against satan. That's how much He loves and cares for us.

The trumpets, now there's a confusing mess that's been argued for quite sometime. I really don't know why, we both believe there will be a resurrection of the dead. I guess the problem lies on the saints going through the time of Jacob's Trouble. That is the proper name you know, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the saints trouble. As I said before God does not pour out His wrath on the believing, but the descendants of Jacob are unbelievers.

My stand is that the last trumpet of 1Cor. 15:52 and the trumpet of 1Thes. 4:16 are one in the same. Not to be confused with the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11:15 and the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 which are not one in the same.

How did I come to this conclusion?

ICor. 15:52 and 1Thes. 4:16 are in harmony. The trumpet sounds, dead saints are raised, living saints are changed, and death is overcome by victory. That cannot be said of Rev. 11 and Matt. 24.

In Rev. 11 after the seventh trumpet sounds in vs 15, let's read what happens.
Rev. 11:18
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

When the angel blows the seventh trumpet it will cause anger on earth, lightening, thunder, an earthquake, great hail, and it will lead to the seven last plagues.

This trumpet is sounded in wrath on the unbelieving, the other is sounded by grace to victory. They are not the same trumpet by a long shot.

What about Matt. 24:31, is it the same trumpet of 1Cor. 15:52 and 1Thes. 4:16?

Where does Paul mention the darkening of the sun (Matt. 24:29), the moon not giving its light (Matt. 24:29), the stars falling from the sky (Matt. 24:29), the powers of the heavens being shaken (Matt. 24:29), all the tribes of the earth mourning (Matt. 24:30), all the world seeing the coming of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:30), or God sending forth angels (Matt. 24:31)?

In Matthew 24 the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect, in 1 Thes. 4 the Lord Himself gathers the believers.

No sir, this is not the same trumpet!

 

[miknik5]

Jesus came the first time to bring the Kingdom of God to the Jews. When the woman with a sick and dying child came believing Jesus would heal the child, Jesus said, it is not proper to throw to the dogs the childrens bread. He called her a dog because she was not a Jew. But she persisted, and Christ said, I have not seen such faith in all Israel, then He granted her wish.

When Jesus sent out the disciples to preach the kingdom of God and heal the sick, He told them to go only to the house of Israel. The Gentiles were left out until Christ was crucified. But He never turned His back on true faith.

Whether you want to believe it or not, Jesus came to give the kingdom of God to the Jews, and they to us Gentiles. But they rejected Him, and God chose the church to deliver the gospel to the world. Israel was God's first choice, and that hasn't changed.

At the second coming the priority will be Israel. For it is Israel that he will save from the anti-christ and bring back into the fold.

The "KINGDOM" is being built up now sir. when the full numbers of the Gentiles are complete., God will reopen the eyes of His First Chosen "Israel"

I know God has not forsaken His First Love but The Gospel came to them First, since they rejected the message of Their True Messiah, the Message went to the Gentiles and the Gentiles were grafted in not only to stir Israel to jealousy but also because again (as both Peter and Paul discovered) the Gentiles are heirs with their older brothers to all the Promises far off which are all found in Christ

After the first Passover Giod told those who had experienced His Salvation not to treat a "foreigner as a foreigner" any one who lived amongst them if they also wished to celebrate the Passover needed to be "circumcised" to God

But instead of being a light to all nations instead of keeping themselves set apart they adopted the customs of the matins around them and the truth and the light were misrepresented. No k evwas feeding one another. They did not feed themselves and they kept food from those who were hungry

There is only One kingdom sir and the King came as the Light to take back and gather up in Himself One set apart and marked and Covenantes people who belong to God in the "kingdom of His Son

God is on a sense even now marrying/covenanting to Himself one people and the one and only Bridegroom will present back to His Father One Bride which is the True ISRAEL/SON of God marked as belonging to God In His Son

And The SON alone is as a Som over His Fathers House and faithful in all which all His Father's Possessions
And all who belong to God must enter in by that One Door/One WAY unto The Kingdom who is Christ

Israel, the remnant will come in at the last hour and because of that type if hour when they come in they certainly WILL be first

The last shall be first and the first shall be last

Read John 4 and 5 together
There are many who have been called into the field mid but the work is being done now for when darkness comes no man can work

 

[miknik5]

Please discuss John 4 and the Truth that He gave His "FOOD" to more than the Jews

 

[Charlie24]

Please discuss John 4 and the Truth that He gave His "FOOD" to more than the Jews

I didn't say He never gave salvation to the Gentiles, I gave and example where He did. Did you not read that part?

In John 4 is another example of Gentiles being saved. In fact, that city had a revival and many were saved. Christ knew there was faith there and that's why He went.

Did you read where I said that Christ never turned His back on true faith? I don't think you did, or I wouldn't have received this post.

 

[miknik5]

Jesus came the first time to bring the Kingdom of God to the Jews. When the woman with a sick and dying child came believing Jesus would heal the child, Jesus said, it is not proper to throw to the dogs the childrens bread. He called her a dog because she was not a Jew. But she persisted, and Christ said, I have not seen such faith in all Israel, then He granted her wish.

When Jesus sent out the disciples to preach the kingdom of God and heal the sick, He told them to go only to the house of Israel. The Gentiles were left out until Christ was crucified. But He never turned His back on true faith.

Whether you want to believe it or not, Jesus came to give the kingdom of God to the Jews, and they to us Gentiles. But they rejected Him, and God chose the church to deliver the gospel to the world. Israel was God's first choice, and that hasn't changed.

At the second coming the priority will be Israel. For it is Israel that he will save from the anti-christ and bring back into the fold.

By the way her daughter had a demon. Some who have evil sports aren't physically dying but are dying none the less

 

[Charlie24]

By the way her daughter had a demon. Some who have evil sports aren't physically dying but are dying none the less

That's correct! I brought it off the top of my head when I posted and made a mistake. Her daughter did have a demon.
Thanks for the correction!