Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Straightshot]

Those who talk about a rapture to Heaven before the Tribulation have taken this from the book LEFT BEHIND and the likes"


The Book has some truth, but the "taken and left" scriptures have nothing to do with the "rapture"

It has to do with Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble [the same as the coming tribulation]

Those taken will be killed in the judgment [2/3].... those left [1/3] will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom just after [Zechariah 13: 8-9]

And you have applied the wrong timing for the Lord's "coming" quoting the following:

1 Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

His call for His true ecclesia [His coming above] will come first ..... before His judgment [the day of the Lord] which will come upon the whole earth against those who have refused to believe the truth about Him [2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

These are seen already in the state of immortality as Revelation unfolds the the events of the tribulation [the day of the Lord] .... how and when did they get there?

[Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those already on thrones]]

 

[Charlie24]

I've never read the that book, but I have studied the scriptures from beginning to end for many years. There is more to it than you would like for us to believe.

Paul sure does tell us something different than what you are saying. That can't be denied!

 

[Riberra]

I've never read the that book, but I have studied the scriptures from beginning to end for many years. There is more to it than you would like for us to believe.

Paul tell us about the resurrection of the believers and the changing into immortality of the believers still alive in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Paul tell us that we will be caught up and gathered together to meet the Lord in the Air unto His Coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

Paul sure does tell us something different than what you are saying. That can't be denied!

Can you tell us what Paul is saying different that what is written in

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

Are you saying that UNTO HIS COMING written in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 means something different ?

We are waiting for your interpretation .

 

[Charlie24]

Paul tell us about the resurrection of the believers and the changing into immortality of the believers still alive in
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Paul tell us that we will be caught up and gathered together to meet the Lord in the Air unto His Coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


Can you tell us what Paul is saying different that what is written in

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ?

Are you saying that UNTO HIS COMING written in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 means something different ?

We are waiting for your interpretation .

I'm saying that the second coming as described throughout scripture is not what Paul is discussing in 1st and 2nd Thes.

I'm saying there are two comings of the Lord described throughout scripture, one where the Lord does not come all the way to earth and another when He does. The two can only be determined by context of scripture.

I'm saying there is overwhelming evidence that the true church will NOT be here during the great tribulation.

I suggest you read this thread in its full to see the evidence, I'm not posting it again.

 

[Straightshot]

Read post #141 RB

You are stating the wrong end of His next intervention in your post # 143 above .... Paul states the pre .... not the post

In doing what you are doing you leave no time lapse between .... which there will be

His judgments will last more than what the post-tribulation theology allows .... like have said exactly 2550 days .... revelation records this time frame which is based upon the 70 weeks of years decreed for Israel .... the 70th week [1260+1260 days] plus 30 days for the battle of Armageddon .... and then He will appear upon the earth

Post-tribulation theology ignores the 70 weeks of years time frame .... the teaching tells that the Lord is finished with His national people of Israel .... not true .... the 70th week and beyond is still pending

 

[Riberra]

I'm saying that the second coming as described throughout scripture is not what Paul is discussing in 1st and 2nd Thes.

I'm saying there are two comings of the Lord described throughout scripture, one where the Lord does not come all the way to earth and another when He does. The two can only be determined by context of scripture.

I'm saying there is overwhelming evidence that the true church will NOT be here during the great tribulation.

I suggest you read this thread in its full to see the evidence, I'm not posting it again.

There is only one Coming of Jesus yet to come.
-The First Coming of Jesus was 2,000 years ago.
-The Second Coming of Jesus is mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31

 

[Riberra]

Read post #141 RB

You are stating the wrong end of His next intervention in your posting above .... Paul states the pre .... not the post

In doing what you are doing you leave no time lapse between .... which there will be

His judgments will last more than what the post-tribulation theology allows .... like have said exactly 2550 days .... revelation records this time frame which is based upon the 70 weeks of years decreed for Israel .... the 70th week [1260+1260 days] plus 30 days for the battle of Armageddon .... and then He will appear upon the earth

Post-tribulation theology ignores the 70 weeks of years time frame .... the teaching tells that the Lord is finished with His national people of Israel .... not true .... the 70th week and beyond is still pending

Paul does not even talk about the tribulation /if so,show us the chapter and verses
Paul tell us what will happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

 

[Straightshot]

"Paul does not even talk about the tribulation /if so,show us the chapter and verses
Paul tell us what will happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD."


Do you know that the entire Bible is the Lord's Word RB .... all of what Paul tells about "rapture" is the Lord's Word .... where do you think that Paul got the info?

You are making the error of taking scripture out of context to prove your point

I find it hard to believe that you do not know this .... are not aware of what you are doing

 

[Charlie24]

There is only one Coming of Jesus yet to come.
-The First Coming of Jesus was 2,000 years ago.
-The Second Coming of Jesus is mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31

So says replacement theology, but Paul tells us a different story.

 

[miknik5]

1Thes. 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

If there is a a post-trib rapture, will we meet the Lord in the air at His second coming and just come right back down with Him? I don't think so! This is a separate event that takes place before the second coming.

2Thes. 2:6-8
"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Someone (he) must be taken out of the way before the anti-christ can be revealed to the world. Who is (he)? It is the Holy Spirit. When (he) is taken out of the way, the anti-christ will have full reign on earth.

But here's the thing, when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, (he) will take his belongings with him, all believers. The Holy Spirit dwells inside the believer. Paul said that we believers are sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Eph. 1:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

The Holy Spirit takes us with him before the anti-christ is turned loose.

The temple will be rebuilt during troubling times. The church will be present during these troubling times. And after He who holds things back is taken out if the way twlh

"Again. Did the Lord bring "his fierce anger" upon Job?"


Totally unrelated .... the day of the Lord has not come yet and when it does all on the earth will know that they are under His judgment [Psalms 2; Jude 1; Revelation 6:12-17]

oh. Not totally unrelated at all

God laid out his word in lower signs and symbols and using representations and shadows so that we would have everything we need to be prepared and to understand.

That's one of the reasons why Job waited amongst all the confusions and interferences not only from his foolish friends who misrepresented God but also from his own wife who told him to curse God
and die.

Job did none of these things but kept his mouth from blaming God trusting that his Redeemer lives and even if his flesh were to wear away still and even in his flesh he would see Him standing upon the earth in the last days

 

[Charlie24]

Dan. 9:27
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The anti-christ will make a deal with several countries, mainly Israel for them to build the temple. "one week" is seven years (the grreat tribulation) "in the midst of the week" is 31/2 years, the first half of the tribulation. At this mid-point, the anti-christ will show his true colors, this is when he sits in the newly built temple proclaiming himself to be God. He takes over the temple and stops the Jews from sacrificing.

The church left before the (week) seven years began. Remember, Paul said that (he) the Holy Spirit must be taken out of the way, as I explained before in another post. The anti-christ cannot begin his quest until this happens.

 

[Straightshot]

"The temple will be rebuilt during troubling times"


This verse is about the rebuilding of the second temple by the Jews who returned from the Babylonian captivity .... nothing to do with a future rebuilding today


Daniel
9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Your understanding of the prophetic scriptures is severely lacking

In fact, Jesus said that not one stone of the second temple would be left standing in His discourse about the time of the end .... and this is still true as we speak

And there will not be during the coming tribulation period [Revelation 11:2] .... the mount has no temple of the Lord's .... the court is "without" His temple

His next temple will be built for His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Ezekiel 40] just after the 70th week and the battle of Armageddon [Ezekiel 38; 39]

The temple that is on the mount today is the Muslim Dome of the Rock .... the temple of the false pagan crescent moon "god" Allah .... Mohammed's pick for His false religion of Islam

And this is the temple that the little horn of Daniel's visions will sit in .... the same man of lawlessness of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12

He will sit in the temple of his "god" who is actually Satan

 

[Charlie24]

"The temple will be rebuilt during troubling times"


This verse is about the rebuilding of the second temple by the Jews who returned from the Babylonian captivity .... nothing to do with a future rebuilding today

Daniel
9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

That's correct! vs 25-27 covers a tremendous amount of time. From the rebuilding of the old temple, the crucifixtion of Christ, the destroying of the temple in ad 70, to the newly built temple in the future.

 

[Straightshot]

Yes Charlie, but I do have a different view than yours about a rebuilt temple of the Lord's either before or during the tribulation .... what you believe, I did as well

But further study and today's setting in the Middle East leads me to believe differently

I see the little horn of Daniel's visions called the "Assyrian" to be one who will arise in the Middle East [northwestern Mesopotamia .... Syria/Iraq today]

This one will be a Muslim Caliph who will confederate today's Muslim presence and form his kingdom

I do not hold the idea of a Euro-centered Pope led revived Roman Empire ... the view of the reformers and later re-constructionists of the 1800s

As I see it, the prophets are all focused upon a Middle Eastern setting with Israel in the midst of their virulent enemies of the Muslims in the region [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 36:1-7; 38; 39; Daniel 11:41; Joel 2; 3; Obadiah 1:1-21; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

If you have questions, I will explain further

See my post # 152

 

[Charlie24]

Yes Charlie, but I do have a different view than yours about a rebuilt temple of the Lord's either before or during the tribulation .... what you believe, I did as well

But further study and today's setting in the Middle East leads me to believe differently

I see the little horn of Daniel's visions called the "Assyrian" to be one who will arise in the Middle East [northwestern Mesopotamia .... Syria/Iraq today]

This one will be a Muslim Caliph who will confederate today's Muslim presence and form his kingdom

I do not hold the idea of a Euro-centered Pope led revived Roman Empire ... the view of the reformers and later re-constructionists of the 1800s

As I see it, the prophets are all focused upon a Middle Eastern setting with Israel in the midst of their virulent enemies of the Muslims in the region [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 36:1-7; 38; 39; Daniel 11:41; Joel 2; 3; Obadiah 1:1-21; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

If you have questions, I will explain further

See my post # 152

I do believe we were tutored by the same discipleship.

I'm not much on comparing scripture with current events, but there's nothing wrong with that. In my view, the current events taking place today will change tomorrow.

I do believe he will be a Syrian Jew from the tribe of Dan. As far as the temple, I certainly can't prove my view! I constantly compare scripture to scripture to put it all together. I know I'm not right about everything, but if scripture is compared to scripture with discernment, it's not going to be off by much.

 

[Charlie24]

Straighshot, I would like to hear your theory on the temple. I'll go ahead and give you mine.

The Jews haven't sacrificed as a nation in almost 2000 years. They say the place of sacrifice, according to the Torah, must be determined by God. The last appointed place of sacrifice has a mosque built over it erected by heathens and offered to a false God. it is my firm belief the Jews will never use the Dome of the Rock for anything.

Israel believes the Messiah will return and appoint a place of sacrifice, well, they have killed their Messiah and don't even know it, yet. The scripture leads us to believe that Israel will be offering sacrifices when the anti-christ makes his move. As I see it, the only way that can happen is if Israel accepts the anti-christ as the Messiah. Jesus said in John5:43,
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."
I believe this to be the anti-christ who Israel will accept as their Messiah. How he gains their trust I don't know. But he is empowered by satan himself and anything will be possible for him. He will have to be a Jew in order to pull it off.

This brings me back to the appointed place of sacrifice that the anti-christ will provide. and we know the rest, he will turn and attempt to destroy.

I see no other way but that a temple must be built. Maybe you do?

 

[Riberra]

"Paul does not even talk about the tribulation /if so,show us the chapter and verses
Paul tell us what will happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD."


Do you know that the entire Bible is the Lord's Word RB .... all of what Paul tells about "rapture" is the Lord's Word .... where do you think that Paul got the info?

You are making the error of taking scripture out of context to prove your point

I find it hard to believe that you do not know this .... are not aware of what you are doing

Where did i said that Paul was teaching something different that Jesus Gospel ?

-That is precisely because i am aware that Paul was preaching the same Gospel of Jesus that i know that Paul is talking about the Coming that Jesus mention in Matthew 24:29-31.Which you deny.

Paul said that our gathering unto Jesus will not come until there come the falling away ie (the Great Apostasy of the CHURCH FIRST) -AND- That the man of sin is revealed...
2 Thessalonians 2 nullify all your pretension that the caught up and
gathering to meet Jesus in the air mentioned 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 will happen before the Tribulation .

 

[Straightshot]

You are very confused RB .... and if you continue to deny His promise and are alive at the time, you will not escape His coming wrath and judgment .... no doubt

All up to you .... your choice

 

[Riberra]

You are very confused RB .... and if you continue to deny His promise and are alive at the time, you will not escape His coming wrath and judgment .... no doubt

All up to you .... your choice

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Are you a deceiver Straightshot ? VERSE 3
Who must we believe: Paul's writings under the Holy Spirit inspiration or your interpretation ?

 

[Straightshot]

Not a good example to prove your point RB .... as Paul explains .... the early "church" thought they had missed His pre-tribulation call as they were taught [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18] .... because false teachers were telling them that the day of the Lord had already come .... the day of His wrath and judgment

Paul corrected their thinking by telling that they had not missed because the time of His judgment had not yet come .... no falling away and no man of lawlessness was evident in their day

That their gathering would come first [2 Thessalonians 2:1]