Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[CharismaticLady]

Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh.

Regarding the law, wouldn't a soft heart prevent you from sinning again?

And the blood of bulls and goats covered them. No they did not and can not.

Hebrews 10

For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Covered and take away are two different things. Yes, the blood of bulls and goats covered the sins, but couldn't take them completely away.

"Either way our sins are not seen any longer."

Jeremiah 16:17-18

“I see everything they do. They cannot hide from me the things they do; their sin is not hidden from my eyes

Jeremiah is Old Testament where sins are only covered, not taken completely away and forgotten.

Hebrews 4:12-13

“God’s word is alive and working and is sharper than a double-edged sword. It cuts all the way into us, where the soul and the spirit are joined, to the center of our joints and bones. And it judges the thoughts and feelings in our hearts. Nothing in all the world can be hidden from God. Everything is clear and lies open before him, and to him we must explain the way we have lived.”

2nd Corinthians 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

14. 1 John 1:9 “If (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

So if you confess your sins and they are forgiven, God still sees them and you have to account for them on judgment day?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Luther's statement doesn't have anything to do with "OSAS", it's a hyperbolic statement intended to speak of the enormity of Christ's work. That there is no amount of sin that we could do that would be greater than what Christ has done. It's not as though if we commit 99 sins we're fine, but then if we commit our 100th sin then suddenly Jesus is going to say, "Oh, well that's it, you're out of here." There is no being so sinful that we can't be saved, there is no being so rotten that Christ does not love us. There is nothing greater, stronger, or more powerful than what God has done for us in Jesus.

That does not mean that we cannot shipwreck our faith. Even the tiniest sin can shipwreck faith.

It's not about small sins or big sins, it's not about frequent or infrequent sin. It's about faith; is our trust in Jesus Christ? Or is our faith in something else?

-CryptoLutheran

Shouldn't the number of willful sins be zero?

 

[Hazelelponi]

?

If sin has the power to separate us from God, none are able to be saved in the first place.

The Bible tells us that sin doesn't have this kind of power... sin is not more powerful that the Justification for sin, found in our Savior Christ Jesus.

Once you understand that, you may have different questions, but sin is not more powerful than God.

 

[CharismaticLady]

All things are permissible, not all things are profitable. 1 Corinthians 10:23

Wasn't Paul talking about food, such as in the old food laws? Not murder.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If sin has the power to separate us from God, none are able to be saved in the first place.

The Bible tells us that sin doesn't have this kind of power... sin is not more powerful that the Justification for sin, found in our Savior Christ Jesus.

Once you understand that, you may have different questions, but sin is not more powerful than God.

Sin once separated us from God. Just ask Adam. But doesn't being given a soft heart by Jesus make us sinless, not sinful? Wouldn't we want to keep God's laws, rather than go our own way? Doen't Jesus do anything except forgive what we willfully do?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Romans 6:1-2

Paul's response to any idea that "grace only" saves is "God forbid". Receiving God's grace is conditional upon being obedient to God's commands as in not murdering, not committing adultery. Grace will not save a person who willfully, impenitently lives in sin. Romans 6:16 we are all serving either;
1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness

Again, those who serve sin unto death do not receive grace as those who obey unto righteousness do receive God's grace. Salvation requires both God's grace and man's obedience.

Please consider the fact that a more precise description of acceptability, righteousness, sinlessness, is loyalty.

The range of acceptable responses from Abraham was from mere belief to committing a crime for God by sacrificing his son. There was no moral dimension to his obedience.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Sin once separated us from God. Just ask Adam. But doesn't being given a soft heart by Jesus make us sinless, not sinful? Wouldn't we want to keep God's laws, rather than go our own way? Doen't Jesus do anything except forgive what we willfully do?

Adams sin - which he freely chose - separated us from God permanent like - UNTIL God Justified His elect through Christ..

there are no works which get us into heaven outside of Christ's works. There are no sins which can cancel out the debt Christ paid on the Cross..

And thats what your asking - whether or not sin has the power to separate God's elect from Him NOW - after Christ Justified them..

in asking that your asking if sin is more powerful than God Himself.

and that answer is no, because if it was, noone would now be able to be justified at all..

 

[Grip Docility]

Wasn't Paul talking about food, such as in the old food laws? Not murder.

Was Jesus talking about “sheep”?

 

[eleos1954]

Wasn't Peter responsible for rescuing people out of Egypt, like Moses?

Acts of the Apostles 5
14And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,15to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them.

And weren't the Gentiles also made blessings to the world?

Galatians 3:28

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

All the apostles were responsible for getting the good news out (Christ - is saviour), anyone in Christ is to get the good news out.

Moses didn't rescue people out of Egypt God did.

Exodus 20
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

The Lord rescues

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Wasn't the promise to Abraham, that his seed would be a blessing to the world, fulfilled when the Gentiles were included in God's family, in place of the Jews?

Galatians 3
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON ATREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[Josh Carver]

We see God because we're pure in heart (Matt 5:8).

Those who are pure in heart admit that they are sinful.

 

[fhansen]

You’re underestimating our weakness, while I am exalting the Power Of God.

I know you fail daily as I do too! Should we not bind ourselves to honesty in discussion?

Is our sin Christ’s failure? NO!
Is Christ a promoter of Sin? NO!
Do we fail? Yes!

It has nothing to do with dishonesty-and everything about understanding God's will/promises, of His purpose and plan for man. To be convicted of sin, to admit that we're worthless wretches, unable to be righteousness, is the first step in conversion to our Lord. It's the first step in being sinless, just as admitting ignorance is the first step in gaining knowledge. But to continue to repeat this, as if it's some kind of noble thing to do is not much different in the end from the Pharisee in Luke 18:11.

At some point God is saying, "Ok, ok, I know you're a sinner, but let's get past that point now. I didn't do all this just so you can remain a sinner-I never created you to sin after all. I've had a purpose and plan for creation from the beginning-to perfect it even if that involved a Fall early on. We're learning something here-that falling and sinning is bad, wrong, useless, not worth it-earning nothing but death. I didn't send my Son merely to win forgiveness for you but also for you to be enabled to "go, and sin no more". I want you on that path-a path I've made just for you. And I'll continue to walk with and work with you on it; I'll pull you back up if you slip and fall now and then as long as you care, as long as you strive. Then at the end of the day only I, your God, will give you a just judgment as to how well you walked that walk with all the grace I gave.

But I will, as I promised, place my Law in your mind and write it on your heart. Jer 31:32

 

[fhansen]

Those who are pure in heart admit that they are sinful.

To begin with, sure. But the pure in heart certainly shouldn't want to stay that way. There's something good and noble about the humble admission but nothing good about denying God's desire to heal our wounds, to free us from sin's slavery. To continue in sin would be to reject His gift of forgiveness-and to mock Him.

 

[fhansen]

I hope wrong teachings don't handicap us, like they handicapped Israel:

Wrong teachings and false gospels have done great harm to the Christian faith. Unless a person understands this verse as well as many like it, then they fail to understand God's purpose and will, not to mention His lavish love for humankind and His knowledge of the potential He made us for.

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:6

 

[eleos1954]

Regarding the law, wouldn't a soft heart prevent you from sinning again?



Covered and take away are two different things. Yes, the blood of bulls and goats covered the sins, but couldn't take them completely away.



Jeremiah is Old Testament where sins are only covered, not taken completely away and forgotten.

So if you confess your sins and they are forgiven, God still sees them and you have to account for them on judgment day?

We sin and as long as we are on this earth we will sin ... it is our nature. Do you see your sin? If you can see sin ... then God sees sin as well.

When Jesus returns ... what does He see?

Revelation 22:11-21

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Everybody at His return has made their decision for Christ or not. Judgement for those in Christ has taken place before His return (1st resurrection). They/we are covered by the blood of Jesus and because of this we are seen as sinless and are reserrected as such.



12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Wasn't the promise to Abraham, that his seed would be a blessing to the world, fulfilled when the Gentiles were included in God's family, in place of the Jews?

Galatians 3
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON ATREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

in place of the Jews? No

Ephesians 3

6 And this is God’s plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God’s children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus.

Wasn't the promise to Abraham, that his seed would be a blessing to the world, fulfilled when the Gentiles were included in God's family, in place of the Jews?

Galatians 3
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON ATREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

in place of the Jews? No

Romans 10
New International Version
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him

Galatians 3

6So also, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”a 7Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”11And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith (in Christ).” 12The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Jews and gentiles ..... faith in Jesus

 

[CharismaticLady]

Adams sin - which he freely chose - separated us from God permanent like - UNTIL God Justified His elect through Christ..

there are no works which get us into heaven outside of Christ's works. There are no sins which can cancel out the debt Christ paid on the Cross..

And thats what your asking - whether or not sin has the power to separate God's elect from Him NOW - after Christ Justified them..

in asking that your asking if sin is more powerful than God Himself.

and that answer is no, because if it was, noone would now be able to be justified at all..

Do you consider repentance a "work"? What about "obedience"?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Was Jesus talking about “sheep”?

Not in the text we are talking about.

 

[CharismaticLady]

dy at His return has made their decision for Christ or not. Judgement for those in Christ has taken place before His return (1st resurrection). They/we are covered by the blood of Jesus and because of this we are seen as sinless and are reserrected as such.

So you don't believe that we are actually righteous, without sin, but are only covered by imputed righteousness, like a blanket over manure?

 

[fhansen]

I think you misunderstood what I said. An example of "breaking a legalistic code of conduct" would be "women can only wear dresses", or "Christians can never drink alcohol." Those types of things.

The "law" as it's defined of Old Testament "encoded rules of expected morality" are now "written on the heart" of believers who being indwelled by the Holy Spirit - obviously God as a moral agent obeys His own law. A believer's obedience to a moral code is a natural outcropping of who God is that indwells them.

Sorry, expecting to get shot at lately . Anyway, yes, I agree, but the justifying that takes place within us is still about a partnership, as distinguished from a total takeover with our wills and identities done away with. Our very existence involves a partnership between ourselves and God, the Creator and created. "In Him we live and move and have our being." However due to free will we can also undermine that partnership, we can destroy it in the moral and spiritual sphere. We can deny God as God even as in truth we depend on Him physically for our very sustenance.

So the righteousness that God wills for man and that is ours only to the extent that He indwells us is no less a partnership, He and us. He places His law in our minds; He writes them on our hearts, He wants good for us.

 

[bcbsr]

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:6

And therefore such a person had never been saved to begin with. So it's Once Saved, Always Saved. Problem is many a Christian haven't gotten to the "Once Saved" stage.