Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[fhansen]

And therefore such a person had never been saved to begin with. So it's Once Saved, Always Saved. Problem is many a Christian haven't gotten to the "Once Saved" stage.

OSAS is a separate topic as I see it. A person could alternatively be justified, "taste of the heavenly gift", discontinue in sin and then take it up again later and lose that state of justice and sonship of God. Or, if OSAS is correct, they will finally persevere by the end of the day in any case. Either way John's point stands.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Do you consider repentance a "work"? What about "obedience"?

I'm not speaking of works at all... I'm speaking of what the Bible says about Christ's redemptive work on the cross.

Christ said "It is Finished" (in the connotation/sense of complete, perfect, lacking nothing)

Christ said Those who the Father gives into my hand I will in no wise reject, and nothing can take them from my hand (paraphrased from John 6:37-39)

Romans 8 that I earlier quoted says similar..

So, do you believe your more powerful than God? Or that your will stronger, and able to undo the work of Christ?

Can you alone, with your lustful thought, destroy the work of God? Does your lie completely undo Christ?

Think hard. If you believe yourself more powerful than God, then you need to meet the God of the Bible..

The Bible says nothing can separate us from God.... nothing.

There is surety of salvation. From there, we grow in Christ - we love Him because he first loved us. We Worship the God who offered us redemption even though we were His enemy.. Romans 5:10

But we will falter and fall sometimes.. yet our mistakes can't undo God's work. Satan comes to steal and destroy - but God_Is_Greater.

 

[bcbsr]

OSAS is a separate topic as I see it. A person could alternatively be justified, "taste of the heavenly gift", discontinue in sin and then take it up again later and lose that state of justice and sonship of God. Or, if OSAS is correct, they will finally persevere by the end of the day in any case. Either way John's point stands.

The point being that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 which essentially answer to OP with "it doesn't actually happen". The OP is about Eternal Security

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm not speaking of works at all... I'm speaking of what the Bible says about Christ's redemptive work on the cross.

Christ said "It is Finished" (in the connotation/sense of complete, perfect, lacking nothing)

Christ said Those who the Father gives into my hand I will in no wise reject, and nothing can take them from my hand (paraphrased from John 6:37-39)

Romans 8 that I earlier quoted says similar..

So, do you believe your more powerful than God? Or that your will stronger, and able to undo the work of Christ?

Can you alone, with your lustful thought, destroy the work of God? Does your lie completely undo Christ?

Think hard. If you believe yourself more powerful than God, then you need to meet the God of the Bible..

The Bible says nothing can separate us from God.... nothing.

There is surety of salvation. From there, we grow in Christ - we love Him because he first loved us. We Worship the God who offered us redemption even though we were His enemy.. Romans 5:10

But we will falter and fall sometimes.. yet our mistakes can't undo God's work. Satan comes to steal and destroy - but God_Is_Greater.

You can talk about election all day long, but only those who keep the commandments of Jesus really have assurance. Those who keep sinning were certainly never "elected."

 

[Hazelelponi]

The point being that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 which essentially answer to OP with "it doesn't actually happen". The OP is about Eternal Security

read:

The Meaning of 1 John 3:9 - Faith Baptist Bible College

and you'll have your answer.

 

[bcbsr]

read:

The Meaning of 1 John 3:9 - Faith Baptist Bible College

and you'll have your answer.

Already have the answer. And in response feel free to view my analysis of 1John 3:9

 

[Hazelelponi]

You can talk about election all day long, but only those who keep the commandments of Jesus really have assurance.

No... God's elect have assurance. God's Spirit testifying with your spirit that you are a child of God.. Romans 8:16


There is no verse that says Christ's work is incomplete, or able to be undone by you..

You either belong to Christ, or you don't. You either went to Him in Faith and belief or you didn't.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Already have the answer. And in response feel free to view my analysis of 1John 3:9

So you've made up your mind and your not willing to hear any other point of view.. good to know..

 

[CharismaticLady]

Already have the answer. And in response feel free to view my analysis of 1John 3:9

What do you mean by "point in time."

 

[CharismaticLady]

No... God's elect have assurance. God's Spirit testifying with your spirit that you are a child of God.. Romans 8:16


There is no verse that says Christ's work is incomplete, or able to be undone by you..

You either belong to Christ, or you don't. You either went to Him in Faith and belief or you didn't.

How do you KNOW that you are one of the elect? How does one know they are not one of the elect? Scripture tells us if you keep sinning, then certainly the seed of the Father is not in you.

 

[bcbsr]

So you've made up your mind and your not willing to hear any other point of view.. good to know..

I didn't say I wasn't willing to hear. Do you assume that just because a person already has developed his convictions on a matter based on his study therefore he's not willing to listen to others. I'm heavily involved in these forums constantly listening to other people's opinion.

If your idea is that if someone doesn't read someone else's link to their Bible study they are "unwilling to hear any other point of view" I would ask, what about you? Do you view my link? Do you read my study? Or is your above characterization of me not also a characterization of you?

I've read the Baptist link. It's a theory I'm aware of, but I disagree with. I call it the Jekyll and Hyde theory, or the two natures theory. It's a theory which is inconsistent with the context. But you would have known that if you had bothered to read my study guide rather than been unwilling to hear any other viewpoint.

 

[bcbsr]

What do you mean by "point in time."

That's covered in one of the early lessons in my study guides on 1John. It basically speaks of the distinction between the Greek Aorist and Present tenses which John utilizes in his epistle.

 

[eleos1954]

Regarding the law, wouldn't a soft heart prevent you from sinning again?

Covered and take away are two different things. Yes, the blood of bulls and goats covered the sins, but couldn't take them completely away.

Jeremiah is Old Testament where sins are only covered, not taken completely away and forgotten.

So if you confess your sins and they are forgiven, God still sees them and you have to account for them on judgment day?

"Jeremiah is Old Testament where sins are only covered, not taken completely away and forgotten."

The OT sacrificial system -
All sanctuary sacrifices, whether offered daily or annually, pointed forward to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Regarding the law, wouldn't a soft heart prevent you from sinning again?
Do you sin?

1 John 2

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven (Luke 10:20).

But as we rejoice, we must also remember not to take the mercy of God and His grace lightly by trying to cover up or ignore our sins. They must be confessed and forsaken:

Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment (Ecclesiastes 11:9).

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 21:27).

Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the record, but will stand as a witness against us in the judgment.

Sins that have been repented of and forsaken have been forgiven and will not be seen.

Judgement takes place before He returns.

Revelation 22

7“Behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book.”

Revelation 22

12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

 

[bcbsr]

How do you KNOW that you are one of the elect? How does one know they are not one of the elect? Scripture tells us if you keep sinning, then certainly the seed of the Father is not in you.

Good question. John answers that many times in his epistle, like

1John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

1John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1Jo 4:13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1Jo 4:6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

 

[Hazelelponi]

How do you KNOW that you are one of the elect? How does one know they are not one of the elect? Scripture tells us if you keep sinning, then certainly the seed of the Father is not in you.

Your taking meaning of one verse and twisting it to declare Christ powerless over your sin..

that is wrong. Your sin doesn't control Christ. Your sin doesn't undo salvation.

God does not exist within time.. God exists completely outside of it..

You declare men must be sinless.. But it is only God's seed which cannot sin. Did you lose your humanity when you became saved?

Or are there two spirits sometimes at odds? The Flesh and the Spirit as the Bible says.. ?

"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want."

A life in conflict with your flesh means you WILL sometimes falter, sometimes fail to heed the leading of the Spirit..

However:

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

We grow in Christ - we aren't born fully mature..

 

[bcbsr]

How do you KNOW that you are one of the elect? How does one know they are not one of the elect? Scripture tells us if you keep sinning, then certainly the seed of the Father is not in you.

Also I forgot to mention the 1Thess verses where Paul says, "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you" And then he lists the reasons why, such as:

1Thess 1:
6 ¶ You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.
7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia.
8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia— your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it,
9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead— Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

 

[CharismaticLady]

"Jeremiah is Old Testament where sins are only covered, not taken completely away and forgotten."

The OT sacrificial system -
All sanctuary sacrifices, whether offered daily or annually, pointed forward to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Regarding the law, wouldn't a soft heart prevent you from sinning again?
Do you sin?

1 John 2

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven (Luke 10:20).

But as we rejoice, we must also remember not to take the mercy of God and His grace lightly by trying to cover up or ignore our sins. They must be confessed and forsaken:

Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment (Ecclesiastes 11:9).

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 21:27).

Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the record, but will stand as a witness against us in the judgment.

Sins that have been repented of and forsaken have been forgiven and will not be seen.

Judgement takes place before He returns.

Revelation 22

7“Behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book.”

Revelation 22

12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

Good. At least you don't think repentance is not essential.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Good question. John answers that many times in his epistle, like

1John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

1John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1Jo 4:13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1Jo 4:6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

Great answer and I agree.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This is ridiculous ! Jesus death did not give us a free licence to sin !
Of course we will still sin but to deliberately indulge in premeditated sin is wrong! We have a choice over conscious sin.

Baffles me how anyone could think as such. It is only those who endure temptation to the end believing and following God's WORD that receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin are going to be disappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

 

[eleos1954]

So you don't believe that we are actually righteous, without sin, but are only covered by imputed righteousness, like a blanket over manure?

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Ephesians 5:4
Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.

Thank you for your time, I go now and block you out of my life.