Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[fhansen]

I have to be honest, I have yet to know a single human being, aside from God Incarnate, that is anything other than a “snow covered dung heap”. “Skubala” A Brief Word Study on Σκύβαλον | Bible.org

Philippians 3:8 ; 2 Corinthians 12:9 ; Isaiah 1:18 ; Romans 3:10

That's too bad. But while humans can be very disappointing I see such an extreme degree of differences in my fellow man-some positive, some negative. Sorry, but we really can choose light over darkness, with grace. Christ really can strengthen us. God really can place His Law in our minds and write them on our hearts.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

I checked the third box.

Anyway, there seems to be a misconception that sin can either be willful or not willful. I happen to think as a Christian we know the difference between right and wrong. So when we sin, we are ALWAYS doing it willfully because the flesh is weak and by this weakness we are "quenching" the Holy Spirit. So that being said, are we still saved? Consider this....Did Jesus Christ of Nazareth come to save the sinner? YES.

 

[eleos1954]

It seems that there is no continuity in the teachings of churches today, with the model shown in the OT or the NT.

In the OT, Joshua is shown as the positive model, with the sinful remnant that did not abide dying and leaving their bones in the wilderness.

In the NT, Peter is the successful example, with Judas doing a crash and burn.

It seems that abiding is leaving Egypt, leaving serving mammon, for treasure that perishes (something repeatedly taught by Christ) for treasure that counts, a good relationship with God.

Which comes from being perfected, being a fruitful tree, being a blessing to the world, convincing others, like Rahab to, in turn, leave worldly pursuits and follow God.

Have you left Egypt? Are you perfected? Are we like those with whom God was not pleased, although they saw the signs and wonders, and could not bring themselves to leave perishing treasures, to finally return to futile living, like the rich young ruler. The promise to being a blessing to the world, given to Abraham (why do people keep leaving out this promise, when talking about the Gospel?) left unfulfilled.

Maybe we haven't even been challenged to come out of Egypt. If so, we can't even be fed bread from heaven, which is how Christ works in us...

I think saying we are not on the same page, not even close, is an understatement...

"The promise to being a blessing to the world, given to Abraham (why do people keep leaving out this promise, when talking about the Gospel?) left unfulfilled."

"was fulfilled in Christ"

Read Galatians 3:6-9, Galatians 3:15-18. How does Paul connect the covenant made with Abraham to Jesus and to salvation by faith?

Through Abraham’s seed-referring not to his many descendants, but in particular to one, Jesus Galatians 3:16, God would bless the entire world. All who would be a part of Abraham’s seed, which happens by faith in Christ Galatians 3:29, would find that Abraham’s God would be their God as well. Even back then, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness Galatians 3:6. Abraham was no more saved by works than the thief on the cross was; it’s always and only God’s saving grace that brings salvation. Abraham fulfilled his end of the covenant promise. His obedience revealed the faith that took hold of the promise of salvation. His works didn’t justify him; instead, the works showed that he was already justified. That’s the essence of the covenant and how it is expressed in the life of faith Romans 4:1-3.

 

[Grip Docility]

That's too bad. But while humans can be very disappointing I see such an extreme degree of differences in my fellow man-some positive, some negative. Sorry, but we really can choose light over darkness, with grace. Christ really can strengthen us. God really can place His Law in our minds and write them on our hearts.

And yet even St. Paul needed Grace, and declared his Works human excrement.

 

[Wordkeeper]

"The promise to being a blessing to the world, given to Abraham (why do people keep leaving out this promise, when talking about the Gospel?) left unfulfilled."

"was fulfilled in Christ"

Read Galatians 3:6-9, Galatians 3:15-18. How does Paul connect the covenant made with Abraham to Jesus and to salvation by faith?

Through Abraham’s seed-referring not to his many descendants, but in particular to one, Jesus Galatians 3:16, God would bless the entire world. All who would be a part of Abraham’s seed, which happens by faith in Christ Galatians 3:29, would find that Abraham’s God would be their God as well. Even back then, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness Galatians 3:6. Abraham was no more saved by works than the thief on the cross was; it’s always and only God’s saving grace that brings salvation. Abraham fulfilled his end of the covenant promise. His obedience revealed the faith that took hold of the promise of salvation. His works didn’t justify him; instead, the works showed that he was already justified. That’s the essence of the covenant and how it is expressed in the life of faith Romans 4:1-3.

Wasn't Peter responsible for rescuing people out of Egypt, like Moses?

Acts of the Apostles 5
14And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,15to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them.

And weren't the Gentiles also made blessings to the world?

Galatians 3
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON ATREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Acts of the Apostles 13
47“For so the Lord has commanded us,
‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’”

48When the Gentiles heard this, they beganrejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[fhansen]

We don’t “see” him because of our righteousness. We “see” him because of HIS righteousness.

We will always be “snow-covered dung heaps” as long as we are in this life.

The publican knew his state that is why he went down justified.

We see God because we're pure in heart (Matt 5:8) Until then we aren't even capable of seeing Him-and probably don't even care. In any case it doesn't end with his admission-as if acknowledging that you're unrighteous makes you righteous by itself-even if that's the first necessary step. The admission doesn't stand in for righteousness but becomes the means to it because its the means to God who, alone can make us right, as we were created to be. Fallen man is apart from Him, but, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." God opposes the proud and exalts the humble.

 

[fhansen]

And yet even St. Paul needed Grace, and declared his Works human excrement.

So God can't make man just, a new creation?? Is He incapable of making anything but sinners? Are the 'works prepared for us in Christ Jesus' in Eph 2:10 or those done for "the least of these" in Matt 25 human excrement??? Were the things Paul did when he was finally in Christ, by the Spirit, under grace, filthy rags?

 

[CharismaticLady]

You cannot out-sin the grace of God. There is no sin so vile that the blood of Christ cannot wash it clean.

Do you have to do anything like repent, or is it cleansed automatically?

 

[Lord Give Me A Sign]

So God can't make man just?? Is He incapable of making anything but sinners? Are the 'works prepared for us in Christ Jesus' in Eph 2:10 or those done for "the least of these" in Matt 25 human excrement??? Were the things Paul did when he was finally in Christ, by the Spirit, under grace, filthy rags?

We are just or rightous only because of God. But we are all sinners and it goes back to the fallout from Adam and Eve

 

[Hazelelponi]

Romans 8:33-39

"Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

I see no loopholes in this, where God's elect are somehow separated from Him..

 

[Grip Docility]

So God can't make man just?? Is He incapable of making anything but sinners? Are the 'works prepared for us in Christ Jesus' in Eph 2:10 or those done for "the least of these" in Matt 25 human excrement??? Were the things Paul did when he was finally in Christ, by the Spirit, under grace, filthy rags?

Christ is our Justification . Romans 8:33-34
Christ is our Atoning Covering. 1 John 2:2
Christ is our Propitiation. 1 John 4:10
Christ is our Sanctification. Galatians 5:6

Our works are human excrement. Philippians 3:8

 

[Wordkeeper]

Do you have to do anything like repent, or is it cleansed automatically?

All you have to do is to be impressed by the great works God does, to convince you He can look after you, if you seek His Kingdom first, like Joshua:

Psalms 106
13They quickly forgot His works;
They did not wait for His counsel,

14But craved intensely in the wilderness,
And tempted God in the desert.

 

[fhansen]

We are just or rightous only because of God.

Sure, as I've repeated.

But we are all sinners and it goes back to the fallout from Adam and Eve

We continue to struggle with sin even as we're empowered to overcome it. And overcome it we're expected to do-rather than throw the gift away.

 

[fhansen]

Christ is our Justification . Romans 8:33-34
Christ is our Atoning Covering. 1 John 2:2
Christ is our Propitiation. 1 John 4:10
Christ is our Sanctification. Galatians 5:6

Our works are human excrement. Philippians 3:8

You're underestimating the power and love of God.

 

[Grip Docility]

Sure, as I've repeated.

We continue to struggle with sin even as we're empowered to overcome it. And overcome it we're expected to do-rather than throw the gift away.

5000 + years shows we all fail.

Only Christ succeeds.

 

[fhansen]

5000 + years shows we all fail.

Only Christ succeeds.

Yes, in redeeming us

 

[Grip Docility]

You're underestimating the power and love of God.

You’re underestimating our weakness, while I am exalting the Power Of God.

I know you fail daily as I do too! Should we not bind ourselves to honesty in discussion?

Is our sin Christ’s failure? NO!
Is Christ a promoter of Sin? NO!
Do we fail? Yes!

 

[The Righterzpen]

And at the same time we certainly can't be led to understand that breaking a legalistic code of conduct, breaking the Law IOW, is obedience of God. To put it another way, while the Law cannot justify us- because only God can do that-the Law still tells us what justice or righteousness "looks like", and so we'll still be judged by it, judged by our love to put it accurately, because "love fulfills the Law".

I think you misunderstood what I said. An example of "breaking a legalistic code of conduct" would be "women can only wear dresses", or "Christians can never drink alcohol." Those types of things.

The "law" as it's defined of Old Testament "encoded rules of expected morality" are now "written on the heart" of believers who being indwelled by the Holy Spirit - obviously God as a moral agent obeys His own law. A believer's obedience to a moral code is a natural outcropping of who God is that indwells them.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Romans 6:1-2

Paul's response to any idea that "grace only" saves is "God forbid". Receiving God's grace is conditional upon being obedient to God's commands as in not murdering, not committing adultery. Grace will not save a person who willfully, impenitently lives in sin. Romans 6:16 we are all serving either;
1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness

Again, those who serve sin unto death do not receive grace as those who obey unto righteousness do receive God's grace. Salvation requires both God's grace and man's obedience.

You have a good understanding of the truth.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Yes, in redeeming us

I hope wrong teachings don't handicap us, like they handicapped Israel:

Matthew 11
21Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Although it was God who planned Israel's disobedience, so that Gentiles could be given the Kingdom:

Romans 9
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?