Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[fhansen]

Sin does not separate us from God. Christ Jesus died to forgive sinners.

But in no way does that mean He wants us to continue in sin now, or no longer cares after forgiving, cleansing, and making us new creations. Jesus died for nothing if there's no change wrought in us, if justice is suddenly ignored now in God's creation rather than finally restored by Christ's work.

God not only forgives but also empowers us to 'go, and sin no more', as we're willing. Either way we must at least be on that track, oriented and moving towards righteousness even as we may slip back now and then and need to acknowledge our need for forgiveness to get back on track.

 

[Josh Carver]

But in no way does that mean He wants us to continue in sin now, or no longer cares after forgiving, cleansing, and making us new creations. Jesus died for nothing if there's no change wrought in us, if justice is suddenly ignored now in God's creation rather than finally restored by Christ's work.

God not only forgives but also empowers us to 'go, and sin no more', as we're willing. Either way we must at least be on that track, oriented and moving towards righteousness even as we may slip back now and then and need to acknowledge our need for forgiveness to get back on track.

We are poor miserable sinners. We are always in need of forgiveness because we are fallen and imperfect and we live in a sinful state. The only righteousness we have is found in Christ and his atonement. All our fleshly righteousness is as filthy rags.

 

[fhansen]

We are poor miserable sinners. We are always in need of forgiveness because we are fallen and imperfect and we live in a sinful state. The only righteousness we have is found in Christ and his atonement. All our fleshly righteousness is as filthy rags.

The purpose of the New Covenant was never about allowing man to stay there- that's what fallen man wants already! God wants more for us than that. The NC is about finally realizing in us what the OC could not: the "righteousness of God", the righteousness man was made to possess. God didn't make man to be sinners after all.

 

[Josh Carver]

The purpose of the New Covenant was never about allowing man to stay there- that's what fallen man wants already! God wants more for us than that. The NC is about finally realizing in us what the OC could not: the "righteousness of God", the righteousness man was made to possess. God didn't make man to be sinners after all.

Luke 18:9-14

In the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican it was the sinner who admitted that he was a miserable sinner who was justified and not the Pharisee who trusted in his own righteousness.

 

[fhansen]

Luke 18:9-14

In the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican it was the sinner who admitted that he was a miserable sinner who was justified and not the Pharisee who trusted in his own righteousness.

Yes, so does that mean sinners are better? Do we now make unrighteousness superior to righteousness? Neither were right to begin with. The Pharisee was a hypocrite in his "righteousness", a "white-washed tomb", clean on the outside only. He was unmalleable clay due to pride. The Publican OTOH, due to his humility, could be made truly just. God wants us clean on the inside first of all. And He, alone, can do that.

 

[eleos1954]

Didn't the law show us our sin also? And the blood of bulls and goats covered them.

It seems now you are saying, it is now the Holy Spirit whose job it is to show us our sin. And then the blood of Jesus cleanses them.

In your doctrine there doesn't seem to be a big difference to us to be under the law or in the Spirit. Either way our sins are not seen any longer. All that's changed is a bunch of animals are saved. Really? That's all we gained from His death in this life?

*****

"Didn't the law show us our sin also? "

Yes, the law (10 commandments) did then, does now and always will show us our sin through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has always been working in the hearts of mankind.

Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh.

And the blood of bulls and goats covered them. No they did not and can not.

Hebrews 10

For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

All that's changed is a bunch of animals are saved. Really? That's all we gained from His death in this life?

Have no idea where you got this from .... of course not.

"Either way our sins are not seen any longer."

Jeremiah 16:17-18

“I see everything they do. They cannot hide from me the things they do; their sin is not hidden from my eyes

Hebrews 4:12-13

“God’s word is alive and working and is sharper than a double-edged sword. It cuts all the way into us, where the soul and the spirit are joined, to the center of our joints and bones. And it judges the thoughts and feelings in our hearts. Nothing in all the world can be hidden from God. Everything is clear and lies open before him, and to him we must explain the way we have lived.”

2nd Corinthians 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

14. 1 John 1:9 “If (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

John 14

But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

Walking in the Spirit

24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit.

Romans 8

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 7

So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Hebrews 2:17-18

“Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”

1 John 3:6-7
“Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.”

The cleansing process (work of the Holy Spirit) in the believer continues throughout their lifetime on earth. And yeah, we are going to mess up (sin) here and there, but when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and repent we are in deed forgiven and He is quick to forgive.

Our assurance

Phillippians 1

6 being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[Josh Carver]

Yes, so does that mean sinners are better?

We are all sinners that’s the point.

 

[fhansen]

We are all sinners that’s the point.

And God doesn't want us to be sinners any more. And He'll eventually have His way, with patience.

 

[Josh Carver]

And God doesn't want us to be sinners any more. And He'll eventually have His way, with patience.

1 John 1:10

States that anyone who claims they are not a sinner is a liar.

We exist in a sinful fallen state.

Only when we are glorified on the last day or when our spirits reach heaven will we shed this sinful body of death.

 

[fhansen]

1 John 1:10

States that anyone who claims they are not a sinner is a liar.

We exist in a sinful fallen state.

And 1 John 3:6 states that 'no one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known Him.'

We're still weak, struggling, but 'we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us'. And we can and are expected to grow in this strength that comes from Him. In this we are tested and refined as we grow in our own willingness to do His will. And that's the path God sets us on at justification.

Faith is not a license to remain in our sins, rather it's the means to overcome them.

 

[eleos1954]

How do we abide?

How does Christ work in us?

When we accept God's grace and salvation, the Holy Spirit reveals our need for Jesus and recreates us. The Spirit builds our faith and helps us leave our broken lives behind.
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God.

Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, He is our Substitute and Example. This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God’s grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God’s sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin.

Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts.

Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 45:22; 53; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 33:11; 36:25-27; Hab. 2:4; Mark 9:23, 24; John 3:3-8, 16; 16:8; Rom. 3:21-26; 8:1-4, 14-17; 5:6-10; 10:17; 12:2; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Gal. 1:4; 3:13, 14, 26; 4:4-7; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 1:13, 14; Titus 3:3-7; Heb. 8:7-12; 1 Peter 1:23; 2:21, 22; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rev. 13:8.)

Abiding in Him ... we study His Holy word and Jesus is our example ... and we follow in His footsteps, and He helps us do that. We will mess up here and there but we are to press towards the mark of walking as He walked.

1 Peter 2:21

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

Philippians 1

6 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

and ... His Holy Spirit working in you, will help you do this.

 

[Josh Carver]

And 1 John 3:6 states that 'no one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known Him.'

We're still weak, struggling, but 'we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us'. And we can and are expected to grow in this strength that comes from Him. In this we are tested and refined as we grow in our own willingness to do His will. And that's the path God sets us on at justification.

Faith is not a license to remain in our sins, rather it's the means to overcome them.

But the fact still remains that in this life we will remain sinful and unclean.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

Luther's statement doesn't have anything to do with "OSAS", it's a hyperbolic statement intended to speak of the enormity of Christ's work. That there is no amount of sin that we could do that would be greater than what Christ has done. It's not as though if we commit 99 sins we're fine, but then if we commit our 100th sin then suddenly Jesus is going to say, "Oh, well that's it, you're out of here." There is no being so sinful that we can't be saved, there is no being so rotten that Christ does not love us. There is nothing greater, stronger, or more powerful than what God has done for us in Jesus.

That does not mean that we cannot shipwreck our faith. Even the tiniest sin can shipwreck faith.

It's not about small sins or big sins, it's not about frequent or infrequent sin. It's about faith; is our trust in Jesus Christ? Or is our faith in something else?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grip Docility]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

There is an election that a member of The Body of Christ finds in Jesus Christ who is the King of the Elect. (Chosen People Of Jacob).

Specific Chosen people of Jacob were told this:

John 5:39-40

People aren’t elected to Salvation at random, but find election unto salvation in the Chosen One Who was elected before the foundation of the universe was laid.

That being said... human will has never been “disabled” at any point or in any passage of Scripture. I authored an OP, once, that said; “show me a Christian that claims they haven’t willfully sinned (under the Law of Sin and Death) a single day, since they’ve been saved, and I’ll show you a willful liar”.

The Law of Christ is Mercy (Faith working through God’s Love). I am indeed Sola Fide, in my understanding and doctrine. Jesus says our “work” is to believe in the One His Father sent. John 6:28-29.

It all boils down to if a person understands what “Go and sin no more”, means.

If a person believes that this is in reference to their flesh and the Law of Sin and Death... they will fail.

If a person understands this as “Go and unbelieve no more”... Nothing will be able to snatch them from the Father’s hand.

All things are permissible, not all things are profitable. 1 Corinthians 10:23

 

[fhansen]

But the fact still remains that in this life we will remain sinful and unclean.

We'll struggle with sin. But if we remain just "snow-covered dungheaps", persistent in serious sin that directly opposes love of God and/or neighbor, we won't see Him.

 

[Wordkeeper]

When we accept God's grace and salvation, the Holy Spirit reveals our need for Jesus and recreates us. The Spirit builds our faith and helps us leave our broken lives behind.
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God.

Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, He is our Substitute and Example. This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God’s grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God’s sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin.

Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts.

Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 45:22; 53; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 33:11; 36:25-27; Hab. 2:4; Mark 9:23, 24; John 3:3-8, 16; 16:8; Rom. 3:21-26; 8:1-4, 14-17; 5:6-10; 10:17; 12:2; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Gal. 1:4; 3:13, 14, 26; 4:4-7; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 1:13, 14; Titus 3:3-7; Heb. 8:7-12; 1 Peter 1:23; 2:21, 22; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rev. 13:8.)

Abiding in Him ... we study His Holy word and Jesus is our example ... and we follow in His footsteps, and He helps us do that. We will mess up here and there but we are to press towards the mark of walking as He walked.

1 Peter 2:21

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

Philippians 1

6 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

and ... His Holy Spirit working in you, will help you do this.

It seems that there is no continuity in the teachings of churches today, with the model shown in the OT or the NT.

In the OT, Joshua is shown as the positive model, with the sinful remnant that did not abide dying and leaving their bones in the wilderness.

In the NT, Peter is the successful example, with Judas doing a crash and burn.

It seems that abiding is leaving Egypt, leaving serving mammon, for treasure that perishes (something repeatedly taught by Christ) for treasure that counts, a good relationship with God.

Which comes from being perfected, being a fruitful tree, being a blessing to the world, convincing others, like Rahab to, in turn, leave worldly pursuits and follow God.

Have you left Egypt? Are you perfected? Are we like those with whom God was not pleased, although they saw the signs and wonders, and could not bring themselves to leave perishing treasures, to finally return to futile living, like the rich young ruler. The promise to being a blessing to the world, given to Abraham (why do people keep leaving out this promise, when talking about the Gospel?) left unfulfilled.

Maybe we haven't even been challenged to come out of Egypt. If so, we can't even be fed bread from heaven, which is how Christ works in us...

I think saying we are not on the same page, not even close, is an understatement...

 

[Grip Docility]

We'll struggle with sin. But if we remain just "snow-covered dungheaps", persistent in serious sin that directly opposes love of God and/or neighbor, we won't see Him.

I have to be honest, I have yet to know a single human being, aside from God Incarnate, that is anything other than a “snow covered dung heap”. “Skubala” A Brief Word Study on Σκύβαλον | Bible.org

Philippians 3:8 ; 2 Corinthians 12:9 ; Isaiah 1:18 ; Romans 3:10

 

[Josh Carver]

We'll struggle with sin. But if we remain just "snow-covered dungheaps", persistent in serious sin that directly opposes love of God and/or neighbor, we won't see Him.

We don’t “see” him because of our righteousness. We “see” him because of HIS righteousness.

We will always be “snow-covered dung heaps” as long as we are in this life.

The publican knew his state that is why he went down justified.

 

[Lord Give Me A Sign]

Lets look to different people from the bible four the answer

Abraham was a personal friend of God but he twice lied about Sarah being his sister and not his wife. He also let Sarah talk him into concieving a child with Jagar

King David had sex with a married woman and arranged for her husband to be killed while at war

Every sin has consequences here on earth. But God knows we are broken and we are redeemed by him. Some of us struggle more then others with sin but we are never to look down on eachother because we all fall short of the glory of God.

It is truly an even playing field for all of us. I am no better then someone who is homosexual as i myself am also sexually broken.

We are only redeemed through Christ

 

[Wordkeeper]

Lets look to different people from the bible four the answer

Abraham was a personal friend of God but he twice lied about Sarah being his sister and not his wife. He also let Sarah talk him into concieving a child with Jagar

King David had sex with a married woman and arranged for her husband to be killed while at war

Every sin has consequences here on earth. But God knows we are broken and we are redeemed by him. Some of us struggle more then others with sin but we are never to look down on eachother because we all fall short of the glory of God.

It is truly an even playing field for all of us. I am no better then someone who is homosexual as i myself am also sexually broken.

We are only redeemed through Christ

You know, there is no mention of moral failings on the part of those with whom God was not pleased. It just says they did not switch loyalty from mammon to God.

1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.