• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by CharismaticLady, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

    10 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

    20 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Member Supporter

    264
    +51
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

    Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +14,422
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    It is not that simple.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +1,155
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    All those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter the kingdom of Heaven because those doing so reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-31; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. JESUS came to save us from sin, not to continue in it. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 7:22-23; 1 JOHN 3:6 and need to seek him in repentance, confession through faith to have forgivness that JESUS died to give all as a free gift. Those who continue in sin count the blood of the convenant an unholy thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace *HEBREWS 10:26-31; HEBREWS 6:4-8 and are deceiving themselves if they believe they are in a saved state before God while living in known unrepentant sin.
     
  4. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

    +524
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    First off, to make it clear that to a certain extent we all "sin willfully". When the Scripture talk about adulterers, idolators, fornicators, drunks etc. won't inherit the kingdom of God; it's speaking of people who live that lifestyle with no serious conviction or desire to overcome their sin. If one's spouse dies and they find themselves a little to frequently in the wine bottle, doesn't mean they've "lost their salvation". Yet if they never overcome that sin; that is evidence that they were never saved to begin with.

    Now someone who once believed they were redeemed and comes to the conclusion that they aren't because there is no evidence of obedience in their life; does not mean they have lost the possibility of being redeemed. It may just not have happened yet.

    Those who are elect were elect from the foundations of the world. They will repent and believe unto salvation at some point in life. God in His omnipotence will not loose them.

    Someone who is truly regenerated though, has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

    The indwelling Spirit is the agent that actually causes faith, repentance, trust, "sanctification" etc. All who are elect are indwelt by the Holy Ghost. All who are true believers are elect. The Holy Spirit is the agent that compels one to obedience. A believer may still "willfully sin", but will be ever increasingly convicted of that until they repent.

    Again though, if they never repent, that is evidence that they were never saved to begin with. You can not loose your salvation.

    Now the scary thing is there are a lot of people who think they are saved but they aren't. Question then becomes, how do you know if you're saved.
    Simple answer: Do you obey God.
    More complicated answer: Understanding what it means to obey God. And understanding that does not mean adhering to a legalistic code of conduct.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  5. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

    +1,413
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    Election is a hindsight term. Before a person repents, before they are saved, while they were still sinners, they can be elect by virtue of how they are ultimately judged. The elect will be saved, even if they are not, yet, believers.

    Once-saved-always-saved implies that acceptance of Christ is all that is necessary for salvation. It's a technical truth. Works of any kind don't save, but as James declared, a person's faith is demonstrated by their works. So while the works don't save, the faith always produces them, and we are saved through faith, by God's grace. Being a sinner won't cost you your salvation, but a lack of faith will, and faith brings us to repentance.
     
  6. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

    +1,842
    Christian
    I'm a proponent of OSAS, but I don't agree with Luther's statement. Fact is "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 As such these kind of hypothetical scenarios simply don't occur.
     
  7. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Member Supporter

    264
    +51
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate

    So you don't believe one that starts out following Christ can sin again and lose their salvation? If they sin again, does it just mean they weren't saved in the first place? So, how can one be assured of their salvation?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  8. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

    +1,842
    Christian
    I'll ask him when I see him. He no doubt read John's writings but probably saw them in a different light.
    I'm not talking about those who "start to follow Christ". I'm talking about people who have already been saved and obtained eternal life, as Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24. There are many people on the path TO eternal life, but haven't arrived. I'm talking about people who have arrived. "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 5:13

    Those who claim to have eternal life but continue to live in sin have not been born of God.

    "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

    Thus though behavior doesn't cause a person to be saved, seeing as salvation is a free gift given to believers, it is a way to identify the saved.
     
  9. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Member Supporter

    264
    +51
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    Yes, I like that. I just find Luther's statement appalling.
     
  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +6,445
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Because there are conscious sins which we can repent of, and unconscious sins we are not aware of which we don't repent of, we are living with a mixture of repented and unrepented sins every day. By your assertion, no one can saved, including yourself, because this is the state of every believer. Sin is the transgression of the Law, and every sin, large or small, carries the same penalty - death. Even just one evil thought or unloving action is transgression of the Law that carries the penalty of death.

    So, if you are basing your eternal future on your perfect obedience to every command, which you have to do if that is the foundation of your Christian life, then I have bad news for you.

    You are sunk!
     
  11. ml5363

    ml5363 Active Member

    487
    +205
    Christian
    Married
    We are not saved by works or what we do.

    We have to ask for forgiveness to be in communion with Jesus. He is holy. He is just to forgive us of our sins.
     
  12. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

    817
    +186
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    "Having to ask for forgiveness" isn't "work"?
     
  13. ml5363

    ml5363 Active Member

    487
    +205
    Christian
    Married
    So telling someone you are sorry you hurt them is work?
     
  14. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

    817
    +186
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Luther apparently never read 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
    Or Romans 6:6-7..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    For he that is dead is freed from sin."
    Or 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
     
  15. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

    817
    +186
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    You are trying to answer a question with a question.
    If someone tells me that something is free, but then tells me I must do this and that for it, it isn't free.
    Paul's exhortations and admonishments against "works" were aimed at those trying to instill OT laws like circumcision and diet as necessary for salvation.
    Folks now days include things like repentance from sin and water baptism and even obedience to God as "works"...much to their eventual sorrow.
     
  16. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

    817
    +186
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    So the command to love God above all else and our neighbors as ourselves was some joke from God?
    I know better than that.
    He has given us everything we need to be "perfectly obedient"...thanks be to Gd.
     
  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +6,445
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    I never said that.
    So, if God has given us everything we need to be perfectly obedient, why has no one achieved perfect obedience?
    Just one impatient word, one evil thought, one little resentment, and, whoops! There blows your perfect obedience!!!
     
  18. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    +1,529
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    You only posted part of Luthers view:

    Here's the fuller view:

    If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness, but, as Peter says, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner [LW 48:281-282].

    Luther was prone to strong hyperbole. It's his style, and this statement is a perfect example. The first thing to recognize is that the sentence is a statement of comparison. Luther's point is not to go out and commit multiple amounts of gleeful sin everyday, but rather to believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly despite the sin in our lives. Christians have a real savior. No amount of sin is too much to be atoned for by a perfect savior whose righteousness is imputed to the sinner who reaches out in faith.

    Without true repentance, we cannot have faith in God. And without faith, we cannot come to full repentance.

    faith and repentance ... The two go together, each strengthening the other. Without faith, we cannot repent in the true sense. Faith gives us a reason to repent. Conversely, faith cannot reach full strength unless we repent — to let go of ourselves and our own shortcomings.

    From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

    I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. (Luke 5:32)

    Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3, 5)

    Acts 20:21

    21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

    Repent, then, and turn to God, so that he will forgive your sins. (Acts 3:19)

    Ezekiel 18

    30Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall.31Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

    32For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  19. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Member Supporter

    264
    +51
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    Are you saying he didn't mean that no sin can separate us from God, in the "fuller view"?
     
  20. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    +1,529
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    "No amount of sin is too much to be atoned for by a perfect savior whose righteousness is imputed to the sinner who reaches out in faith."

    and reaching out in faith includes repentance - faith and repentance go together.

    this of course would exclude blasphemy (total rejection) of the Holy Spirit and of course in that case both faith and repentance are absent.
     
Loading...