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Featured Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by CharismaticLady, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

    10 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

    20 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    Can you give an example of unconscious sin?
     
  2. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    No, it's both, because without our consent, and continuous consent, the partnership dissipates. From Adam through today God will not force His will upon anyone. He wants greater things for man than what that would allow or else He would've just prevented Adam from sinning to begin with, or simply stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate to begin with and avoided all the drama and pain and suffering that ensued between the Fall and now.
     
  3. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    I hope you are not saying that a man reborn of God's seed will bear evil fruit.

    The first few verses of Rom 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
    The entire middle of Rom 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (“that is, in my flesh”).
    And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
    we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
    Why would Paul still be subject to something he is free of?
    If you could see the truth of Rom 7, and its proximity to Rom6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.
    To use Romans 7 as a justification for sin is an error.
     
  4. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Actually the Sin is to remain in Egypt, like Israel, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira. Joshua and Peter are the ones who are shown to have left spiritual Egypt.

    You can take the man out of Egypt, but getting Egypt out of the man is something else.
     
  5. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Paul is very clearly showing that his flesh fails in Romans 7.

    He uses Eden as the starting point and shows that we are condemned by Satan using the Law that is Good, Against us.

    He declares that his mortal members are subject to the Law of Sin and death, but Christ frees him, by His grace.

    That watering down the Gospel business ain’t aight! Nobody got time for that mess!
     
  6. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    If your quoting from a New Testament letter such as 1 John, it would be wise to quote further from 1 John to clarify the commandments that John was referring to.

    This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. ( 1 John 3:23-24)
     
  7. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Following a sexy young woman in a short dress on a windy day can give an evil thought, hoping that the wind would blow it up to reveal is underneath, before we even realise it, and it can be so subtle that it does not have an effect on our conscious mind.
     
  8. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I’ve always simply thanked the Potter for His incredible Craftsmanship! I mean, look at Islam, those guys have to cross their fingers to catch an ankle!

    Infact... notice a pattern!?! God had Adam and Eve Naked as Jaybirds and unashamed! Satan comes along and Women are fully clothed.

    Reason number 1,000,532,987 we know the devil clearly ruins everything good!

    God might as well say... this is why you don’t have nice things!
     
  9. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

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    Absolutely do not agree with Martin at all. It's so opposite from God's Word: Revelation 22:15, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Timothy 1:9, Letters to the Churches in Revelation - Jesus Christ warns and directs correction.

    Jesus Christ tells us how to become saved from His Gospels, that it's an ongoing thing day in and day out - which is enduring until the end. This is how we know we are saved: Romans 10:9-10, John 14:15, Matthew 22:35-40, Ephesians 4:30. :yellowheart:
     
  10. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Whose righteousness?
     
  11. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Israel was rebuked by all the prophets for not bearing fruit. Was Joshua bearing fruit through the Law when he performed a sign, layed down his life and picked it up again, resulting in Rahab coming out of Egypt?

    No-oooo! He bore fruit through loyalty, faithfulness to God.

    That is the Kingdom, laying down your life and picking it up again, through switching loyalty from mammon to God, being born again:

    Matthew 21
    33“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, put a wall around it, dug a wine press in it, and built a watchtower. Then he leased it to tenant farmers and went abroad. 34When harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenant farmers to collect his produce. 35But the farmers took his servants and beat one, killed another, and attacked another with stones. 36Again, he sent other servants to them, a greater number than the first, but the tenant farmersy treated them the same way. 37Finally, he sent his son to them, thinking, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38But when the tenant farmers saw his son, they told one another, ‘This is the heir. Come on, let’s kill him and get his inheritance!’ 39So they grabbed him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40Now when the owner of the vineyard returns, what will he do to those farmers?”

    41They told him, “He will put those horrible men to a horrible death. Then he will lease the vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at harvest time.”

    42Jesus asked them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures,

    ‘The stone that the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone.z
    This was the Lord’saa doing,
    and it is amazing in our eyes.’?bb

    43That is why I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce fruit for it. 44The person who falls over this stone will be broken to pieces, but it will crush anyone on whom it falls.”cc

    The cornerstone is "picking up your cross", laying down your life only to pick it up again, which Joshua did, and bore fruit, which Israel did not do, and was barren.

    But you already knew that.
     
  12. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Yes, verse 1&2 of Galatians 4 are very interesting. The Son actually being under the law until the time appointed by the Father; (which I'm assuming had to do with His baptism) because you run into points in the Scripture where Jesus actually "broke the law". It's in the passage where He healed someone on the sabbath. (He did it more than once.) Then to prove He was Lord over the sabbath; told the guy to take up his bed and go home, after He'd told him his sins were forgiven.

    Then get down to verse 27; note the bondwoman is the one (temporarily at least) with lineage of children and "has a husband" (the law), which ends up being unto her death eternally seeing how the law "doesn't die".

    Jesus was ultimately the "seed of Abraham" and though the free woman be barren of physical lineage, she's inherited all the children of promise because they are all adopted of the Father; on account of the Son having "opted out of" lineage of the flesh.

    The bond woman actually was cast out on account of unbelief and all that had been the lineage of children actually perished by the end of the 1st century.

    Interesting how that passage has a couple of applications; not just to the law, but also to the nation.
     
  13. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Your confused. What does 1 JOHN 3:4 say which cannects to ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20; JAMES 2:10-11 and is the CONTEXT of 1 JOHN 3:23-24?

    Are you really trying to argue that it is not sin to break any one of God's 10 Commandments when it is God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken. I am not sure what is more sad; your comments above denying God's WORD or the person who rated you. Only God's WORD is true *ROMANS 3:4 and I know who I believe and it is not you.

    May God help you as you seek him through His Word.
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Sin should be viewed in the light of being fruitful or not fruitful, the latter occurring when one does not leave mammon to serve God.

    Joshua was not fruitful by following the law, but by being faithful to God. The law only made awareness of moral failing obvious, needing the reader to turn to God, confess, and be assured that He would forgive and cleanse the pleader from that unrighteousness, providing it did not make him proud (I'm talking like a lawyer, giving clauses and sub clauses!).

    But Joshua was also under grace, because of faith, loyalty. However, since the "Land" was not cleansed, he could only bring Rahab in.

    There remained a "Rest"...
     
  15. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    LOL - When ever the wicked perish in their sin; God has "forced" His will upon them in taking their lives. How often do the unregenerate shake their fists at the sky for hurricanes and earthquakes, and even things like war; which is of man's own making?

    LOL - Heaven is stocked with the elect and hell with the reprobate. No one makes it into the kingdom if they are not elect.

    Why'd God allow Adam to sin?
    Answer: Without the fall there'd be no setting into motion the greater redemptive plan! One can not be redeemed if there is no awareness of the offense against God. That was the purpose in the giving of the law. The first command given to all creation came right after Eve was created; that was "be fruitful and multiply". Adam called her "The mother of all living." because ultimately the Redeemer would be connected to humanity by being born of the seed of the woman.

    The fall was inevitable because good and evil still existed in the world. Adam and Eve just had no knowledge of it until they transgressed.

    As far as someone "becoming willing" to be redeemed in the first place:

    1. The Holy Ghost has to awaken them that they begin looking for God to begin with.
    2. They have to come under conviction that their sin needs to be dealt with.
    3. They come to recognize the Redeemer that they now intrinsically know that they need.
    4. They repent of their sin. (Note John came with baptism of repentance before believers were told to baptize people in the name of Father, Son, Holy Ghost.)
    5. They believe. (Messiah is manifest after giving of the law.)
    6. All these steps are engineered by God and this whole process is set in motion by the Holy Spirit.

    The human agent in that sense isn't "making choices" they are simply responding to what's birthed in them. And of course they respond positively because when you've been blind and tripping over the furniture in a pitch black house your entire life and suddenly someone cuts the lights on and you can see; no one says: "Shut the lights off again, I'd rather trip around in the dark." And that in "theology speak" is what's called "Irresistible grace."
     
  16. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Genesis 1
    27And God saw how good it was.

    26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, to be like us.kk Let them be masters over the fish in the ocean, the birds that fly,ll the livestock, everything that crawls on the earth, and over the earth itself!”

    27So God created mankind in his own image;

    in his own image God created them;mm

    he created them male and female.

    28God blessed the humans by saying to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it! Be masters over the fish in the ocean, the birds that fly, and every living thing that crawls on the earth!”

    29God also told them,nn “Look! I have given you every seed-bearing plant that grows throughoutoo the earth, along with every tree that grows seed-bearing fruit. They will produce your food. 30I have given all green plants as food for every wild animalpp of the earth, every bird that flies, and to every living thingqq that crawls on the earth.” And that is what happened.rr

    31Now God saw all that he had made, and indeed, it was very good!
     
  17. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    You didn't actually read what I wrote did you?

    Except verses 14-25 of Romans 7 are present tense.

    1 John 1:
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
     
  18. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Not sure what these verses have to do with what I said?

    Unless you are inferring that because God saw: "It was good." that evil didn't exist. Yet "good" in that passage does not mean "perfect" or "incorruptible".

    Satan fell before humanity did - correct?
    So there was evil in this world before Adam and Eve were aware of it.
    Remember it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; not the tree of good and evil!
     
  19. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    God saw evil, Satan and remarked how good everything was?

    Evil is transgression of the law. Since there was no law, no evil existed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  20. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I have no idea how your post here responds to what you are quoting from or why you have written this.
     
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