Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Wordkeeper]

Sorry I have no idea how your post here responds to what you are quoting from or why you have written this.

The Law could not do anything in the situation of making a person righteous. Loyalty, faithfulness to God was what was required. This does not always have a moral content: Abraham believed God and it made him righteous.

Don't bring the Ten Commandments into any discussion of how believers are separated from God. It is too narrow a criteria. Many people didn't do immoral deeds and yet they were separated from God, like the rich young ruler.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Does Jesus call you a sinner, or a son?

He calls me His own, as I have been given to Him by the Father, John 6:37. On account of the grace of God, by which I am adopted as God's child, united to Christ by my baptism, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, by which I can say "Abba, Father". Romans 8:15-16, Galatians 3:27, Galatians 4:6

So that from the vantage point of the Gospel, God sees only the perfect righteousness of His only-begotten Son, as I have received the righteousenss which is apart from the Law, by grace, through faith. So that I am, in Christ, holy, blameless, righteous, and perfect. 2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 2:20, Romans 3:21-22, Colossians 1:22

From the vantage point of the Law, however, I must confess that I am indeed a sinner, for I sin daily. The good I wish to do I do not do, and the evil I do not want to do I do. So that I find sin's rule even in my members, and so I am at war with myself; between what I know is right and what I do which is evil. Romans 7:18-23

Simul iustus et peccator. I am both at once saint and sinner, holy and wicked, perfect and wretched. That is the cross of this life which we must carry as Christ's people.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us of all our sin and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. John 1:8-9

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Don't bring the Ten Commandments into any discussion of how believers are separated from God. It is too narrow a criteria. Many people didn't do immoral deeds and yet they were separated from God, like the rich young ruler.

Your confused brother. It is God's LAW (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is in the NEW COVENANT *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. The same as not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23

It is sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments and unbelief) that separates us from God...

ISAIAH 59:1-2 [1], Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: [2], But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

According to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments and unbelief) will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

Yep many are going to be dissappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

 

[The Righterzpen]

God saw evil, Satan and remarked how good everything was?

God possessed the knowledge of good and evil before He ever created anything. That's part of the definition of omniscience. That knowledge did not corrupt God though (as it corrupted humanity and the rest of creation) because of the nature of entity that God is. Yet, God still chose to create knowing what He created would inevitably be corrupted. And yes, He still called what He'd created good. And did this at the point before it's corruption had become evident; even though evil at that point existed and God knew that. (I.E. darkness is upon the face of the deep.)

The word "good" used in those passages in Genesis means "pleasant". It's used mostly in contexts of animals, plants and people or objects that are "beautiful" or "pleasing" to look at. God looked at what He made and was pleased with it; is what that means.

Now where did "evil" come from. As far as I can deduce from the Scripture, because evil did not predate creation; evil's existence came about as a byproduct of God creating. At least that's my theory.

If you want to read about that theory:

Theory on the origin of evil

Evil is transgression of the law. Since there was no law, no evil existed.

Although in the philosophical sense evil is only definable when it becomes manifest by what something does; yet in theory (or you can even say "in the spiritual sense") evil exists within intent before the action manifests. We see this as sin can be committed in the heart before it's made manifest in the material world. So in that sense, "evil" as a philosophical concept is definable and can even be said to be active as a "force" before manifest by action.

And "law" certainly existed. It wasn't expressly written until Moses wrote / assembled the Pentateuch and who ever wrote the book of Job; which most likely predated (at least in some oral form) Moses. We know elements of the creation story, Noah's flood and Job existed as oral lore before Genesis was "officially penned" because they exist in rudimentary written form in Summerian libraries; as well as the penned lore of other cultures.

"Law" existed from the point God commanded creation to "be fruitful and multiply". That was the first command given to all of creation. The first command recorded in Scripture given specifically to Adam and Eve was to "tend and keep the garden". The second command was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So yes, "law" existed before the fall and this is why evil came to the attention of Adam and Eve at the point they'd disobeyed God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Pick any of them... when I break 1, I break them all.

This is why so many people think Christians are hypocrites and refuse to even hear more about our faith.

These people set impossible standards they themselves can't keep, and demand others keep them..

Something in the Bible about that...

 

[TheSeabass]

Romans 8:33-39

"Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

I see no loopholes in this, where God's elect are somehow separated from Him..

Sin is not mentioned in Romans 8:35-39 for it does separate one from God.

Romans 8:3 "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

The imperative given by Jude shows:
1) it is incumbent upon the Christian to keep himself in God's love, therefore the Christian has accountability in keeping himself in the love of God and personal culpability if he does not.
2) the imperative logically implies that Christian can fall from God's love, else the command would be senseless and needless. If it were impossible for the Christian to fall from God's love, the imperative would imply an untruth.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death;..." Sin leads to spiritual death which is separation from God. Paul does not contradict himself going from Rom 6:23 to Rom 8:35-39 nor does Rom 8:35-39 nullify Rom 6:23.
I think it is also important to note what Paul did NOT say in Romans 6:23, he did NOT say "for the wages of sins is just the loss of some rewards for the Christian for the Christian will be unconditionally saved no matter what the Christian does".

 

[Wordkeeper]

And "law" certainly existed. It wasn't expressly written until Moses wrote / assembled the Pentateuch and who ever wrote the book of Job; which most likely predated (at least in some oral form) Moses. We know elements of the creation story, Noah's flood and Job existed as oral lore before Genesis was "officially penned" because they exist in rudimentary written form in Summerian libraries; as well as the penned lore of other cultures.

"Law" existed from the point God commanded creation to "be fruitful and multiply". That was the first command given to all of creation. The first command recorded in Scripture given specifically to Adam and Eve was to "tend and keep the garden". The second command was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So yes, "law" existed before the fall and this is why evil came to the attention of Adam and Eve at the point they'd disobeyed God.

You claim that law always existed, transgression too, and therefore there was always evil.

But Paul says that there was a time when law never existed and there was therefore no transgression:

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This just proves my contention that when you step into the labyrinth of the lexicographer, you become a lost cause...

 

[Wordkeeper]

Your confused brother. It is God's LAW (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is in the NEW COVENANT *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. The same as not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23

It is sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments and unbelief) that separates us from God...

ISAIAH 59:1-2 [1], Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: [2], But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

According to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments and unbelief) will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

Yep many are going to be dissappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

Paul said the law counted for nothing, because the Gentiles, those not under law, were having the same benefits as the Jews who had the law. He then proves it by saying that Abraham didn't have the law, yet he could be justified, considered a member of God's family, just by believing. Believing has no moral content, it's just an act that put him on God's side. In fact an immoral act like trying to sacrifice his son also put him on God's side, and that act was supposed to have perfected his faith!

Break any commandment, it doesn't matter, just be on God's side. You don't think you know better than God, do you? He's like a super chess player, He knows a zillion moves ahead of the game. Just trust Him...

 

[CharismaticLady]

Romans 7:14-25
Paul explains the dichotomy of the indwelling Spirit still contending with a corrupt nature that still sins.

No, Paul is explaining that the law is holy, and not the problem. It was our fallen nature that made us struggle. It is the law of sin and death. That is BEFORE Christ and being born again of the Spirit.

You are Reformed, so will disagree, but just read it in context (Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:9) and maybe the Spirit will let you see the truth. If not, lets just agree to disagree.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Have you heard the call to come out of Egypt?

Hebrews 4
7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

I've been born again and put my total truth in Jesus. Total trust in Jesus and following Him is God's rest.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I've been born again and put my total truth in Jesus. Total trust in Jesus and following Him is God's rest.

1. Israel called out of Egypt
2. Israel still has an old mindset, of depending on mammon
3. God does great works (bread from Heaven, for the children only, not for dogs) to prove that man does not need mammon
4. Joshua believes and in turn brings down the wall of Jericho, influences Rahab (the power of the Kingdom of God!)
5. The rest of Israel (1 million) disbelieves and dies in the desert

Compare the parallel of Judas, Ananias and Sapphira.

Tell me who had a different mind set , meta noia-ed?

Psalm 78:32
In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; despite His wonderful works, they did not believe.

Psalm 103:7
He made known His ways to Moses, His deeds to the people of Israel.

Psalm 106:7
Our fathers in Egypt did not grasp Your wonders or remember Your abundant kindness; but they rebelled by the sea, there at the Red Sea.

Psalm 106:13
Yet they soon forgot His works and failed to wait for His counsel.

Psalm 106:21
They forgot God their Savior, who did great things in Egypt.

To enter God's rest is by perfecting your faith like Abraham and the believers who placed the most precious things in their lives at Peter's feet. Which the rich young ruler could not do. Rest is from the repeated sacrifice of bulls and goats, because the blood of Jesus cleansed the people of God, the invisible church, the Body of Christ, once and for all. Entered by perfecting of faith.

BTW, what kind of call did you get?

 

[CharismaticLady]

From the vantage point of the Law, however, I must confess that I am indeed a sinner, for I sin daily. The good I wish to do I do not do, and the evil I do not want to do I do. So that I find sin's rule even in my members, and so I am at war with myself; between what I know is right and what I do which is evil. Romans 7:18-23

As I just stated in another response, Romans 7 is not about us as Christians. We are not under the law - the person in Romans 7 is. Paul wants to make it clear that it wasn't the law which held the problem, it is holy, but our sin nature. That is what Christ accomplished. He killed sin in the flesh. Read it in context (Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:9)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us of all our sin and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. John 1:8-9

Same problem. Verse 8 is not a Christian. They must first do verse 9 to become cleansed of ALL SIN. That is when we are given the Holy Spirit to walk in verse 7.

 

[www.jesusandjewels.com]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

If you are an heir to salvation I don't believe you would knowingly engage in sin and not repent. We shouldn't want to abuse grace by sinning more as Paul spoke about. There is a difference in making an honest mistake versus making an CONTINUAL choice to go out and commint repeated sin. If people are "saved" and yet behave in lawless ways i would question if they ever accepted Christ. But we all have to grow and learn.

 

[CharismaticLady]

1. Israel called out of Egypt
2. Israel still has an old mindset, of depending on mammon
3. God does great works (bread from Heaven, for the children only, not for dogs) to prove that man does not need mammon
4. Joshua believes and in turn brings down the wall of Jericho, influences Rahab (the power of the Kingdom of God!)
5. The rest of Israel (1 million) disbelieves and dies in the desert

Compare the parallel of Judas, Ananias and Sapphira.

Tell me who had a different mind set , meta noia-ed?

Psalm 78:32
In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; despite His wonderful works, they did not believe.

Psalm 103:7
He made known His ways to Moses, His deeds to the people of Israel.

Psalm 106:7
Our fathers in Egypt did not grasp Your wonders or remember Your abundant kindness; but they rebelled by the sea, there at the Red Sea.

Psalm 106:13
Yet they soon forgot His works and failed to wait for His counsel.

Psalm 106:21
They forgot God their Savior, who did great things in Egypt

BTW, what kind of call did you get?

Yes, the children of Israel did not believe nor trust God, no matter how many times God showed them His love and protection with great signs and wonders. I do both. I have been born again of the Spirit.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Yes, the children of Israel did not believe nor trust God, no matter how many times God showed them His love and protection with great signs and wonders. I do both. I have been born again of the Spirit.

Well if you had a correct call from a pastor who knows the truth, you would have been properly baptised into the drink and the food, would have become a child of God. That means access to becoming a witness of signs and wonders, bread from heaven, prohibited to dogs. What signs and wonders do you see?

1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.

 

[Phil W]

Actually the Sin is to remain in Egypt, like Israel, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira.

I agree that the sin is to remain in sin. (?)

Joshua and Peter are the ones who are shown to have left spiritual Egypt.

Joshua left physical Egypt, (but was still under the auspices of the Mosaic Law).
These are "pictures" of what was yet to come.
Peter did finally "turn from" sin, in the new covenant.

You can take the man out of Egypt, but getting Egypt out of the man is something else.

Fortunately it is God's doings and gifts that accommodate our "exodus" from sin.

 

[Phil W]

Paul is very clearly showing that his flesh fails in Romans 7.

I agree, but he is narrating from a former life style...under law.
He is telling us how it used to be for him.
In Romans 6, Paul has already shown us how to do away with the flesh, and Romans 8 goes on to discribe a walk in the Spirit.
Romans 7 is a a transition point in a believers walk in Christ.
From the flesh-Mosaic law-failure, to the Spiritual-law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus-victory. (Rom 8:2)

He uses Eden as the starting point and shows that we are condemned by Satan using the Law that is Good, Against us.

As you didn't make it clear as to what you are replying to, I can only reply with..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
We are now free from the law of sin and death...thanks be to God!

He declares that his mortal members are subject to the Law of Sin and death, but Christ frees him, by His grace.

You misread Romans 8:2, which says the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed us.

That watering down the Gospel business ain’t aight! Nobody got time for that mess!

Again, I have no idea what you are referring to.

 

[Johan_1988]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

I really disagree with Martin Luther that a person can continually willfully sin and be still saved. Repentance is not just asking for forgiveness. It must appear that you have changed your mind about the evil deed and seek to do it no more. Although an individual might recommit the same sin out of weakness. There has to be a fruit of repentance:"
Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Otherwise you are a hypocrite like the Jew's were spoken of in the passage above. The were in flesh Jew's (children of Abraham), but not in heart. You can be in name a christian, but your heart can be far from it if you have not repented.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I agree that the sin is to remain in sin. (?)

The sin is to remain loyal to Mammon: Judas, Ananias and Sapphira, and the rich young ruler.

Joshua left physical Egypt, (but was still under the auspices of the Mosaic Law).
These are "pictures" of what was yet to come.
Peter did finally "turn from" sin, in the new covenant.

Joshua never stood out in the beginning, so he must have murmured like the rest. God purposely created a shortage of water and food, and continued to perform signs and wonders, so that Israel would realise that God could protect them. What Scripture calls giving of spiritual drink and spiritual food. But God was not pleased with most of Israel, because even though they ate the same food and drank the same drink, they never benefited in the same way as Joshua, whose belief became so strong he even risked his life and the lives of others because of it, like Abraham, who also received a continuous provision of spiritual nourishment. The same motif persists throughout Scripture, unlike modern explanations of what the Gospel is.

Fortunately it is God's doings and gifts that accommodate our "exodus" from sin.

Yes it was not Moses who fed Israel bread from heaven, but God. That is why He rebuked and penalised Moses, because there is no blessing in believing in Moses , which his wrong choice of words could have led to, while there is indeed great blessings in believing in and following God.

 

[Phil W]

Following a sexy young woman in a short dress on a windy day can give an evil thought, hoping that the wind would blow it up to reveal is underneath, before we even realise it, and it can be so subtle that it does not have an effect on our conscious mind.

James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
From this, we can determine that it takes temptation, lust, enticement, and conception to "bring forth sin".
As it is also written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)...without the lusts anymore, it is impossible to satisfy the "formula".
The difference between a man walking in the flesh and a man walking in the Spirit is that the man walking in God won't "hope the wind would accommodate sin".