Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Phil W]

Whose righteousness?

It is written..."For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Rom 5:19)
Whose grace?
God's, in us, and through us.
The "many" made righteous are not unrighteous anymore.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Following a sexy young woman in a short dress on a windy day can give an evil thought, hoping that the wind would blow it up to reveal is underneath, before we even realise it, and it can be so subtle that it does not have an effect on our conscious mind.

A better example is that of Simon the Sorcerer. Philip taught what his own Master taught, that men should stop serving Mammon for treasure that perishes, and start serving God for treasure that lasts, but Simon Magus did not think how that teaching affected his desire to move his career forward. Trying to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit was indeed serving mammon, a self serving act.

 

[Phil W]

Israel was rebuked by all the prophets for not bearing fruit. Was Joshua bearing fruit through the Law when he performed a sign, layed down his life and picked it up again, resulting in Rahab coming out of Egypt?
No-oooo! He bore fruit through loyalty, faithfulness to God.
That is the Kingdom, laying down your life and picking it up again, through switching loyalty from mammon to God, being born again:
Matthew 21
33“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, put a wall around it, dug a wine press in it, and built a watchtower. Then he leased it to tenant farmers and went abroad. 34When harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenant farmers to collect his produce. 35But the farmers took his servants and beat one, killed another, and attacked another with stones. 36Again, he sent other servants to them, a greater number than the first, but the tenant farmersy treated them the same way. 37Finally, he sent his son to them, thinking, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38But when the tenant farmers saw his son, they told one another, ‘This is the heir. Come on, let’s kill him and get his inheritance!’ 39So they grabbed him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40Now when the owner of the vineyard returns, what will he do to those farmers?”
41They told him, “He will put those horrible men to a horrible death. Then he will lease the vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at harvest time.”
42Jesus asked them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures,
‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone.z
This was the Lord’saa doing,
and it is amazing in our eyes.’?bb
43That is why I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce fruit for it. 44The person who falls over this stone will be broken to pieces, but it will crush anyone on whom it falls.”cc
The cornerstone is "picking up your cross", laying down your life only to pick it up again, which Joshua did, and bore fruit, which Israel did not do, and was barren.
But you already knew that.

Though I don't know what exactly you are referring to, I agree with all your POV.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Though I don't know what exactly you are referring to, I agree with all your POV.

Iacocca said a good lecture is one where the speaker tells the audience what he is going to talk about, then talks about it, and then tells them what he talked about. Jesus always taught the same lesson in many different ways.

 

[Grip Docility]

I agree, but he is narrating from a former life style...under law.
He is telling us how it used to be for him.
In Romans 6, Paul has already shown us how to do away with the flesh, and Romans 8 goes on to discribe a walk in the Spirit.
Romans 7 is a a transition point in a believers walk in Christ.
From the flesh-Mosaic law-failure, to the Spiritual-law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus-victory. (Rom 8:2)


As you didn't make it clear as to what you are replying to, I can only reply with..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
We are now free from the law of sin and death...thanks be to God!


You misread Romans 8:2, which says the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed us.


Again, I have no idea what you are referring to.

You had me at free from the Law of Sin and Death! Praise Jesus!!!!

Paul speaks as if he’s held under the Law, in the present, to teach.

But, I have to be sincere, I sense something is off, in much of Christianity's understanding.

It boils down to either it’s Jesus or its not. This is where duplicity can be found.

 

[Phil W]

You didn't actually read what I wrote did you?

Yes I did, including this..."Yet because a believer still has a fallen nature; they do still sin. No believer is without sin."
But I am a new creature now, and It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
My "fallen nature" has been replaced by a divine nature.

Except verses 14-25 of Romans 7 are present tense.

More precisely, they are present-historical, or, present-narrative tense.
Paul is narrating a past experience, making the transition from "flesh"-Romans 6, to "Spirit"-Romans 8

1 John 1:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John is addressing two very different kinds of men and two very different kinds of walk.
Some of 1 John 1's verses are addressed to those in darkness--sin and others are addressed to those walking in light--God.
Verse 8 and 10, along with verse 6 are of concern to those in darkness...they cannot say they have no sin or that they have never committed sin.
But others walk in the light, and have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin.
It is incumbent on us to remain in the light, wherein is no sin. (verse 5)

 

[Phil W]

You had me at free from the Law of Sin and Death! Praise Jesus!!!!
Paul speaks as if he’s held under the Law, in the present, to teach.

I think you've got it !
Then Paul goes on to tech about life in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, in Romans 8.

But, I have to be sincere, I sense something is off, in much of Christianity's understanding.
It boils down to either it’s Jesus or its not. This is where duplicity can be found.

Your "sense" is on target.
False Christians are destroying the reputation of Jesus, the church, and God.
How often have you heard..."Well some Christians are worse than unbelievers"?

We gotta "represent" God on earth now!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Paul said the law counted for nothing, because the Gentiles, those not under law, were having the same benefits as the Jews who had the law. He then proves it by saying that Abraham didn't have the law, yet he could be justified, considered a member of God's family, just by believing. Believing has no moral content, it's just an act that put him on God's side. In fact an immoral act like trying to sacrifice his son also put him on God's side, and that act was supposed to have perfected his faith!

Break any commandment, it doesn't matter, just be on God's side. You don't think you know better than God, do you? He's like a super chess player, He knows a zillion moves ahead of the game. Just trust Him...

Your confused here dear brother. According to God's WORD no one is under the law unless they stand guilty before God of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20. Sin is the breaking of God's LAW *1 JOHN 2:3-4.

Abraham did have God's LAW *GENESIS 26:5. I suggest you read JAMES 2:14-26 and HEBREWS 11 to have a balanced view of faith. There is no such thing as believing without following God's WORD. The devils believe God's WORD but do not follow it *JAMES 2:19.

According to God's WORD breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments do indeed matter as all those who knowingly continue doing so without repentance and without turning back to God to seek his forgiveness, will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. *1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 10:26-31. That being the case according to God's WORD it seems like it matters indeed.

Many are called but only few are chosen. Many are going to think they are saved when they are not at the 2nd coming because they were practicing known unrepentant sin (breaking God's Commandments) which kept them out of God's Kingdom *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

 

[Grip Docility]

Your "sense" is on target.
False Christians are destroying the reputation of Jesus, the church, and God.
How often have you heard..."Well some Christians are worse than unbelievers"?

We gotta "represent" God on earth now!

I will be honest... It’s those Christians saying that, that are the problem.

“The least of these” are important words.

Keep in mind the Pharisees said this... Mark 2:16 ; Matthew 9:11

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
From this, we can determine that it takes temptation, lust, enticement, and conception to "bring forth sin".
As it is also written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)...without the lusts anymore, it is impossible to satisfy the "formula".
The difference between a man walking in the flesh and a man walking in the Spirit is that the man walking in God won't "hope the wind would accommodate sin".

95% of men would have unconscious thoughts like that, and the other 5% are liars.

 

[Grip Docility]

95% of men would have unconscious thoughts like that, and the other 5% are liars.

So, just to be clear, praying for a gust of wind, at that point, is bad?

With my luck, I would pray for the wind and an unexpected sound would be generated from in front me, to remind me, it’s all just “temporary passings” of a dying kingdom of dust.

I would be reminded that selfish prayers deserve answers that “stink”.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So, just to be clear, praying for a gust of wind, at that point, is bad?

With my luck, I would pray for the wind and an unexpected sound would be generated from in front me, to remind me, it’s all just “temporary passings” of a dying kingdom of dust.

I would be reminded that selfish prayers deserve answers that “stink”.

It all depends on what you want the gust of wind to do!

 

[Grip Docility]

It all depends on what you want the gust of wind to do!

Let’s say, hypothetically, I think myself Righteous, and forego praying for that quick gust that moves fabric.... Forego praying for God’s Will, and I decide to be cleaver and pray the very wind sweeps her my way to have and to hold. In the process I ignore the scripture that says beauty fades... and end up married to the gal. 6 months into marriage, I realize that marrying someone based on looks was a bad idea, as beauty fades, while personality is forever!

Yeah... that sums up my first marriage

That moment when you’re reading through Proverbs and realize you sidestepped all the important verses about marriage.

I could write a book on making Ishmael!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

A PARABLE

Some were told by the one who knows all things;

Hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and not perceive: this was because those hearing made themselves a hardened heart that said "Lo this word is not for me who can hear it? I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing".

Travelling along the way those who would not hear fell into the ditch they call delusion that all fall into that kick against the pricks because they lost their mirror that shows the way when the path is dark and narrow.

Their lamp was a guide to them but they did not have enough oil. Their lamp then went out and now they sit in darkness falling into the dtich they cannot find their way out.

Some travellers in the way walked by and saw some of these sitting in darkeness who lost their way and offered them some oil for their lamps but they being proud would not accept the gift and did not want to receive any help choosing instead to make their home in the ditch which the Lord of the way gave them over to because they loved darkness rather then the light because their deeds were evil.

Tick tock goes the watch the time for grace is running out. Who will hear the call to go out and meet the brifegroom? Only those that have their lamps trimmed and full of oil and who have not lost their mirror that shows them the way when the road is dark and narrow.

God's Sheep hear his Voice (the Word of God)

.............

MATTHEW 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

MATTHEW 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

MATTHEW 13:53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed there.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

Well 1 John 2:3-6 comes to mind.

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB

 

[BNR32FAN]

First off, to make it clear that to a certain extent we all "sin willfully". When the Scripture talk about adulterers, idolators, fornicators, drunks etc. won't inherit the kingdom of God; it's speaking of people who live that lifestyle with no serious conviction or desire to overcome their sin. If one's spouse dies and they find themselves a little to frequently in the wine bottle, doesn't mean they've "lost their salvation". Yet if they never overcome that sin; that is evidence that they were never saved to begin with.

Now someone who once believed they were redeemed and comes to the conclusion that they aren't because there is no evidence of obedience in their life; does not mean they have lost the possibility of being redeemed. It may just not have happened yet.

Those who are elect were elect from the foundations of the world. They will repent and believe unto salvation at some point in life. God in His omnipotence will not loose them.

Someone who is truly regenerated though, has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

The indwelling Spirit is the agent that actually causes faith, repentance, trust, "sanctification" etc. All who are elect are indwelt by the Holy Ghost. All who are true believers are elect. The Holy Spirit is the agent that compels one to obedience. A believer may still "willfully sin", but will be ever increasingly convicted of that until they repent.

Again though, if they never repent, that is evidence that they were never saved to begin with. You can not loose your salvation.

Now the scary thing is there are a lot of people who think they are saved but they aren't. Question then becomes, how do you know if you're saved.
Simple answer: Do you obey God.
More complicated answer: Understanding what it means to obey God. And understanding that does not mean adhering to a legalistic code of conduct.

Well said friend

 

[Grip Docility]

A PARABLE

Some were told by the one who knows all things;

Hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and not perceive: this was because those hearing made themselves a hardened heart that said "Lo this word is not for me who can hear it? I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing".

Travelling along the way those who would not hear fell into the ditch they call delusion that all fall into that kick against the pricks and lose their mirror that shows the way when the path is narrow.

Their lamp was a guide to them but they did not have enough oil. Their lamp then went out and now they sit in darkness falling into the dtich they cannot find their way out.

Some travellers in the way walked by and saw some of these sitting in darkeness who lost their way and offered them some oil for their lamps but they being proud would not accept the gift and did not want to receive any help choosing instead to make their home in the ditch which the Lord of the way gave them over to because they loved darkness rather then the light because their deeds were evil.

Tick tock goes the watch the time for grace is running out. Who will hear the call to go out and meet the brifegroom? Only those that have their lamps trimmed and full of oil and who have not lost their mirror.

God's Sheep hear his Voice (the Word of God)

.............

MATTHEW 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

MATTHEW 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

MATTHEW 13:53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed there.

A parable,

Just then an expert in the law stood up to test Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the law?” He asked him. “How do you read it?” He answered: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.

28 “You’ve answered correctly,” He told him. “Do this and you will live.” But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus took up the question and said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him, beat him up, and fled, leaving him half dead.

31 A priest happened to be going down that road. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 In the same way, a Levite, when he arrived at the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

33 But a Samaritan on his journey came up to him, and when he saw the man, he had compassion. 34 He went over to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on olive oil and wine. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, ‘Take care of him. When I come back I’ll reimburse you for whatever extra you spend.’ 36 “Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” “The one who showed mercy to him,” he said. Then Jesus told him, “Go and do the same.”
Luke 10:25-37 - Bible Gateway passage: Luke 10:25-37 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

A Samaritan was considered cut off from God because they did not follow the Law and worshiped other god’s.

The first priest avoided the body of the man to follow the law.

The Levite, also, avoided the body of the man to follow the Law.

The Samaritan cared for and Restored the man, without concern to who the man was or why he was there in the first place.

What does it profit a man to gain the entire world and lose his soul?

The free gift of salvation is mankind’s greatest hope... and what good is it if it is sold at a price, when Jesus already paid for it in totality?

Beware robbers that would enter in by ways that are not The Way... those that would even attempt to waylay those that enter through the narrow gate.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As I just stated in another response, Romans 7 is not about us as Christians. We are not under the law - the person in Romans 7 is. Paul wants to make it clear that it wasn't the law which held the problem, it is holy, but our sin nature. That is what Christ accomplished. He killed sin in the flesh. Read it in context (Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:9)

Same problem. Verse 8 is not a Christian. They must first do verse 9 to become cleansed of ALL SIN. That is when we are given the Holy Spirit to walk in verse 7.

On what justification do you claim Romans 7 and 1 John 1 doesn't apply to Christians? Where in the context of the text do you make that claim?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grip Docility]

On what justification do you claim Romans 7 and 1 John 1 doesn't apply to Christians? Where in the context of the text do you make that claim?

-CryptoLutheran

It isn't speaking to Christians if it's context isn't properly followed. This is to say, it is speaking to Christians in present tense verbiage that exalts Jesus Christ's salvational work in the lives of "forgiven sinners". By the Law of sin and death, we would be damned, yet by Christ we are Saved.

 

[CharismaticLady]

From the vantage point of the Law, however, I must confess that I am indeed a sinner, for I sin daily. The good I wish to do I do not do, and the evil I do not want to do I do. So that I find sin's rule even in my members, and so I am at war with myself; between what I know is right and what I do which is evil. Romans 7:18-23

On what justification do you claim Romans 7 and 1 John 1 doesn't apply to Christians? Where in the context of the text do you make that claim?

-CryptoLutheran

By the context of the Book of Romans. Paul is saying we are not under the law, but he wants to clarify that there was nothing wrong with the law, like it was not holy. It is! The problem was trying to keep the OT law with sin in our nature (which Christ takes away). Romans 7 and 8 is a contrast between the OT law before Christ and the NT Spirit after being born again of the Spirit.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 John 1 also has contrasts between light and darkness. Verses 5, 7 and 9 are light; 6, 8 and 10 are those still in darkness.