Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

[BABerean2]

Under the video it says that the descendants of Jacob need to hear the Gospel now. But the descendants of Jacob no longer exist. And even if they did we could not know who they are because all the genealogical records were destroyed in the siege of Jerusalem in AD70. Modern "Jews" are actually Ashkenazi Gentiles who have adopted the Jewish religion. And modern "Israel" is not Biblical Israel. Modern Israel is a secular state which was founded by the U.N. in 1948. God doesn't know them as the Israel he established.

I am going to have to agree with most of what you said here, because it is the truth.

The one exception may be the Sephardic Jews. However, you are correct that genealogy is not a factor in the New Covenant of Christ, as proven by Matthew 3:9 and 1 Timothy 1:4. Therefore, all races of people need to hear the Gospel.

Based on Matthew chapter 21, it is the Son (Christ) who is heir to the land.

Thanks for keeping me on the right path.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

Do you really think this young man had kept the ten commandments his whole life?
You know better than this, based on what the Apostle Paul said in his letters.
Only Christ kept the commandments perfectly.

Christ could have called the young man a liar, which he clearly was.
However, instead of calling him out as a liar Christ gave him something else that he could not do.

If commandment keeping is the standard, King David was condemned as an adulterer and one who conspired to have Uriah killed so he could gain his wife. This proves that commandment keeping has never been the standard. It has always been "faith".

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baberean2,

You miss the whole point and cannot rebut what I said in context. That is why you divert from the main issue.
Zachariah and Elizabeth were said to be perfect according to the law.
The had to keep the commandments in order to be blessed otherwise they would be cursed.
God wouldn't give a law they couldn't keep. With God all things are possible even today is possible but not probable.
Christ showed that the law couldn't be kept as much as overcoming because of the weakness of the Old covenant. Roman's 7 says that in the proper context of why the law of sin and death could take advantage of the law that was holy and good. This is why the new covenant in the God-man Jesus Christ is built on better promises.
I am still waiting on that apology you owe me. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

You miss the whole point and cannot rebut what I said in context. That is why you divert from the main issue.
Zachariah and Elizabeth were said to be perfect according to the law.
The had to keep the commandments in order to be blessed otherwise they would be cursed.
God wouldn't give a law they couldn't keep. With God all things are possible even today is possible but not probable.
Christ showed that the law couldn't be kept as much as overcoming because of the weakness of the Old covenant. Roman's 7 says that in the proper context of why the law of sin and death could take advantage of the law that was holy and good. This is why the new covenant in the God-man Jesus Christ is built on better promises.
I am still waiting on that apology you owe me. Jerry kelso

We have already covered the issue of Zachariah and Elizabeth before.
Were they people who did their best to follow God? Yes.
Were they perfect, like Christ? No.

Was Peter or Paul perfect? No.


Rom 3:9　 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.　
Rom 3:10　 As it is written: "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE;　
Rom 3:11　 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.　

Rom 3:19　 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.　
Rom 3:20　 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.　

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[Saverio]

You are most certainly on the right track.
Let me share something with you about those "left behind".
Tim LaHaye did not even get the title right.
Let us look at the text of scripture in an effort to understand who are "left behind".

The secret to understanding the Bible is that all passages must agree with each other. If there is conflict it means we do not have the correct interpretation.

Mat 24:38　 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,　

Mat 24:39　 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.　(It is the wicked who are taken here.)

Mat 24:40　 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
　
Mat 24:41　 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
　
Mat 24:42　 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.


If we are consistent in our use of the word "taken" above, it is the wicked who are "taken". This is confirmed by the following from Luke's Gospel.

Luk 17:36　 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."　

Luk 17:37　 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."　(Vultures eat the dead.)



All of this makes sense if we compare these passages to the parable of the wheat and tares, which describes the Second Coming.

Mat 13:30　 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "　


The tares are gathered first to be destroyed, while the wheat is gathered to the barn. We are the wheat at the Second Coming.

I appreciate you looking for the truth.

.
　

Thank you for your reply. What you say makes sense to me, although I never thought about that passage from the perspective you advanced.
Would it be fair to ask if all the examples of the word "taken" are the same Greek word, or are there variations that could have different meanings.
The reason I ask is because it seems as if there has always been some controversy of the exact meaning of some of the Greek words.
"Parousia" comes to mind.

 

[jerry kelso]

We have already covered the issue of Zachariah and Elizabeth before.
Were they people who did their best to follow God? Yes.
Were they perfect, like Christ? No.

Was Peter or Paul perfect? No.


Rom 3:9　 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.　
Rom 3:10　 As it is written: "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE;　
Rom 3:11　 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.　

Rom 3:19　 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.　
Rom 3:20　 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.　

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baberean2,

1. I didn't say they were like Christ for he never sinned in his whole life.
I said they were perfect in the fact that they could perform all the commandments at one time to fulfill the righteousness of Moses law whether for a short or a longer amount of time. Of course the way you talk you cannot live perfect for just one day.
You misunderstand again, but then again I come to expect nothing less. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Thank you for your reply. What you say makes sense to me, although I never thought about that passage from the perspective you advanced.
Would it be fair to ask if all the examples of the word "taken" are the same Greek word, or are there variations that could have different meanings.
The reason I ask is because it seems as if there has always been some controversy of the exact meaning of some of the Greek words.
"Parousia" comes to mind.

You can download eSword for free online. It is what I use. You can click on the verse and then use the "compare" feature to check the Greek.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Of course the way you talk you cannot live perfect for just one day.

It is because you do not sin, Jerry.

I am aware that I am a work in progress.
I am a sinner saved by Grace.

I will never be like the young ruler and claim that I do not sin. I know me better than anyone else.

It is not about what I have done or what I could ever do. It is about what He did for me.

 

[jerry kelso]

It is because you do not sin, Jerry.

I am aware that I am a work in progress.
I am a sinner saved by Grace.

I will never be like the young ruler and claim that I do not sin. I know me better than anyone else.

It is not about what I have done or what I could ever do. It is about what He did for me.

[/QUOTE

baberean2,

1. I never said I don't sin. You are wrong accusing me of that.

2. I am a work in progress and by nature I was a sinner saved by grace and now I am a new creation. If you don't believe this you are not saved.

3. I most likely will never be like the rich man with money.
I will claim that I sin when I sin and I won't say that I sin when I don't.
The Bible says to abstain from sin and are you gonna tell me that you can never abstain from sin?

4. I have always said it is not what we do it is always about the finished work of Christ and who I am in Christ.
We do because of him. This s is why we can be sinless for one second, one minute, one hour, one day and more.
If you cannot be sinless for at least one day then you don't believe in God's power to help you abstain from evil.

5. I am still waiting for my apology you owe me. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

baberean2,

1. I never said I don't sin. You are wrong accusing me of that.

2. I am a work in progress and by nature I was a sinner saved by grace. Now I am a new creation.
If you don't believe this you are not saved.

3. I most likely will never be rich like the rich young man with money.
I will say I sin when I sin and when I don't sin I will not say I sin.
The Bible says to abstain from evil and are you going to tell me it is possible and you have never done it.

4. I have always said it is not what we do but who we are in Christ and through his power of his finished work.
We do because of him. It it is why we can be sinless for one second, one hour, one day and more.

If you can't live sinless at least up to one day then you don't believe you can abstain from evil or in the power of God to help you do this.

5. I am still waiting for my apology. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The Bible says to abstain from evil and are you going to tell me it is possible and you have never done it.

I am doing it now, Jerry.

My flesh wants to use a few curse words here to respond to your post, especially the comment about my salvation. That was a low blow. However, it is not the first time a Dispensationalist has made such a remark. The condemnation of others is one way they try to defend their doctrine.

However, through the power of the Spirit I can stop myself from saying things here that are not appropriate.

At one time I was a weekend alcoholic. Now, I no longer consume alcohol. I cannot remember the last time I had any. I do this through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Although I am a new creation in Christ, I still understand the daily battle between the Spirit and the flesh.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

I am doing it now, Jerry.

My flesh wants to use a few curse words here to respond to your post, especially the comment about my salvation. That was a low blow. However, it is not the first time a Dispensationalist has made such a remark. The condemnation of others is one way they try to defend their doctrine.

However, through the power of the Spirit I can stop myself from saying things here that are not appropriate.

At one time I was a weekend alcoholic. Now, I no longer consume alcohol. I cannot remember the last time I had any. I do this through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Although I am a new creation in Christ, I still understand the daily battle between the Spirit and the flesh.

.

baberean2,

1. Your reaction shows that you believe in overcoming and that you can through the spirit so we both agree we can live sinless. You believe in abstaining from evil and so do I.
You believe the same thing I do so I don't understand why you think I was condemning you about salvation.
I didn't say that to condemn you to begin with because I don't believe in condemning people. You are judging my motive wrongly so it is just your opinion.

2. I thank the Lord you overcome your weekend drinking.

3. Nobody is arguing that there is no battle between the Spirit and the flesh.

4. The initiative of understanding the better promises of the new covenant over the weaknesses of the Mosaic law such as in Roman's 7 and 8:1-2 is to have more of a conscience to overcoming sin than how much you can't help but sin.
If one says they can't help but sin which is the law mentality, then Satan can use it in your subconscious to lean more to the frailty of man and self effort and commit sin and feel condemnation instead of overcoming sin.
God's way through the new covenant much better way of overcoming. It is looking to what he did at the cross and his resurrection and interceding in the throne room. Do you think Christ intercession is just for forgiving people when they sin? No it is for grace in time of need and he said we are more than overcomes through Jesus Christ.
If one wants to know how sinful men are read the law cause it gave the knowledge of sin and Solomon's writings in Ecclesiastes's shows how vain man is without God.
Do you really think it is wrong to encourage people to overcome through the new covenant mentality vs. the Old Mosaic law mentality of defeat? Give me a break!
I am still waiting for my apology! You never mention it; so much for humility on your part. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The initiative of understanding the better promises of the new covenant over the weaknesses of the Mosaic law such as in Roman's 7 and 8:1-2 is to have more of a conscience to overcoming sin than how much you can't help but sin.

That "conscience" is the Holy Spirit who is inside of us. It provides the power to overcome sin in the New Covenant.

I have never heard a sermon on the New Covenant from a Dispensationalist.
Why not? The New Covenant destroys the doctrine, which claims the Church is a "mystery" not revealed in the Old Testament. The New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Paul's reference to Hosea in Romans 9:25 prove this claim is nonsense. If you really understood the New Covenant and Dispensational Theology, this would be obvious to you.

"...because I don't believe in condemning people."

"... so much for humility on your part."

As long as you continue the "double-talk" comments above, you better not hold your breath on an apology.

Take the following sermons on the New Covenant and share them with your preacher and the people you go to church with. Then you will truly understand the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New. You also need to prepare yourself to be attacked, for speaking the truth.

.

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. Your reaction shows that you believe in overcoming and that you can through the spirit so we both agree we can live sinless. You believe in abstaining from evil and so do I.
You believe the same thing I do so I don't understand why you think I was condemning you about salvation.
I didn't say that to condemn you to begin with because I don't believe in condemning people. You are judging my motive wrongly so it is just your opinion.

2. I thank the Lord you overcome your weekend drinking.

3. Nobody is arguing that there is no battle between the Spirit and the flesh.

4. The initiative of understanding the better promises of the new covenant over the weaknesses of the Mosaic law such as in Roman's 7 and 8:1-2 is to have more of a conscience to overcoming sin than how much you can't help but sin.
If one says they can't help but sin which is the law mentality, then Satan can use it in your subconscious to lean more to the frailty of man and self effort and commit sin and feel condemnation instead of overcoming sin.
God's way through the new covenant much better way of overcoming. It is looking to what he did at the cross and his resurrection and interceding in the throne room. Do you think Christ intercession is just for forgiving people when they sin? No it is for grace in time of need and he said we are more than overcomes through Jesus Christ.
If one wants to know how sinful men are read the law cause it gave the knowledge of sin and Solomon's writings in Ecclesiastes's shows how vain man is without God.
Do you really think it is wrong to encourage people to overcome through the new covenant mentality vs. the Old Mosaic law mentality of defeat? Give me a break!
I am still waiting for my apology! You never mention it; so much for humility on your part. Jerry kelso

Merry Christmas Jerry.

Although we do not really know the actual date of the Savior's birth, let us put aside our differences and enjoy what we have in common through the birth of the Christ-child.

I have shed a great number of tears during this season, when I hear the words of the song...
"Mary Did You Know?" It is my favorite Christmas song.
They are tears of joy and awe.

He was born so that He could die for us.

He built us a house out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.
"It is finished."

I love you, Brother.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Merry Christmas Jerry.

Although we do not really know the actual date of the Savior's birth, let us put aside our differences and enjoy what we have in common through the birth of the Christ-child.

I have shed a great number of tears during this season, when I hear the words of the song...
"Mary Did You Know?" It is my favorite Christmas song.
They are tears of joy and awe.

He was born so that He could die for us.

He built us a house out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.
"It is finished."

I love you, Brother.

.

baberean2,

We have much more in common than you think.
Mary Did You Know is a wonderful song and I personally know the writers and they are wonderful writers.
Michael English 's cut was the first and is still my favorite version.
I love you in the Lord as well. Blessed Christmas season for Christ is the reason. Jerry kelso

 

[Greatcloud]

I believe all prophecy given about the near future of Isreal and Rome was fulfilled in AD 70 by the Roman soldiers.

 

[com7fy8]

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
-John 17:15

I'm a pre trib believer, but I can't help but be bothered by this verse. does this prove posttribulation, or is there a way around this? I'd like some answers

This is Jesus Himself praying for us,

according to His own faith and all which it is possible for His own faith to get . . .

and which is possible with God, not limited to what we can handle or not

So . . . Disciple Ethan . . . Jesus does not directly say if this applies to when He will come, but it does show that God is able to keep us from the evil one.

And Jesus also has said we will go through persecution; so I do not think this prayer means the evil one will be totally kept from making trouble for us. But what He means, I would say, is how God in us is able to keep us from how the evil one would effect us in our hearts and minds >

"the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7)

So, I think this means how in us God keeps us from the evil one . . . no matter what Satan is allowed to do around us or to our bodies. So, this could apply to if we can go through the Great Tribulation and have a post-trib rapture > yes, God is easily able to do this with anyone. So, we should not judge by how we are, now, and suppose we could not do well with God in the trib.

"You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world." (1 John 4:4)

 

[jerry kelso]

I believe all prophecy given about the near future of Isreal and Rome was fulfilled in AD 70 by the Roman soldiers.

great cloud,

1. That is impossible because Israel's part of the Abrahamic Covenant Genesis 12-15; Ezekiel 37:25 and Davidic Covenant 2 Samuel 7:4-16; 1 Chronicles 28:7-8 which are eternal concerning the restoration of the land Joel 2:18-27; Romans 8:22-23 and the KoH reign that is connected with the restitution of all things Acts 3:19 and Christ taking over the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.

2. These things did not happen in 70 A.D. which was because of the Jews rejection of Jesus message of the physical KoH reign Matthew 4:17; 5 etc. the spiritual aspect of the KoG in his earthly ministry Matthew 6:33, Luke 17:20.
70 A.D. was the result of Jesus prophecy in Matthew 24:1-2.
The signs of Christ coming back and the end of the world deals with the beginning of sorrows verse 3-8; and the end of the world as we know it of human domination to Christ theocracy from the tribulation which is the time of Jacob's trouble which deals with the Jewish nation verses 9-22:23-31 and being purged from sin Daniel 9:24-27 to Christ coming Matthew 24:29-31 to gather the Jewish remnant to save them verse 31 and unite them with Israel to become one stick and no more two sticks Ezekiel 36:15-28.
Outside of the scriptures, it is a preterist false understanding to replace Israel with the Church called "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY" which is not biblical anymore than the RCC being the mother church and Protestants being her children. Jerry kelso

 

[JWO]

The verse is not eschatological. Jesus was talking about His earthly disciples at the time. Obviously, they could not have been extracted, otherwise the whole plan of spreading the gospel would be nullified.

Hasn't the Kingdom Gospel been trampled underfoot for 1700 years?

 

[JWO]

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
-John 17:15

The People Jesus prays for:

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations 20 to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you

The church-people who go into the Great Tribulation:

Revelation 2:20 thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

"Eating foods sacrificed to idols" in the Bible.

 

[jerry kelso]

Hasn't the Kingdom Gospel been trampled underfoot for 1700 years?

jwo,

1. The Kingdom gospel of the millennial KoH is eschatological for the physical KoH reign has not come yet and will not till Christ comes to take away the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.

2. The KoG in its spiritual aspect of salvation was taken away from Israel because they rejected Christ and killed the son. Matthew 21:33-43.

It was given to the church bearing the fruits and to make Israel jealous Roman's 11.

3. Israel has been trodden under the foot of men ever since 70 A.D. Matthew 5:13.
Jerry kelso