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Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by DiscipleEthan, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. DiscipleEthan

    DiscipleEthan Newbie

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    I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
    -John 17:15

    I'm a pre trib believer, but I can't help but be bothered by this verse. does this prove posttribulation, or is there a way around this? I'd like some answers
     
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  2. dysert

    dysert Member

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    The verse is not eschatological. Jesus was talking about His earthly disciples at the time. Obviously, they could not have been extracted, otherwise the whole plan of spreading the gospel would be nullified. So Jesus' prayer was that the enemy would leave them alone as they went about evangelizing. (I'm a pre-trib too.)
     
  3. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    I think this is one verse that destroys the pre-trib rapture doctrine, but there are others. Maybe if this one bothers you enough to ask the question, seeing them all together will bother you enough to change your mind.

    Let me ask you this. Do you think "the rapture" and the resurrection are two separate events? Or are they the same event?
     
  4. DiscipleEthan

    DiscipleEthan Newbie

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    That's a good question. I'm not sure what to think
     
  5. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Well, I think based on 1 Thess 4 we can safely say that they are the same event.

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Now, knowing that, rather than trying to figure out when the rapture occurs, let's see if we can figure out when the resurrection occurs.

    John 6:39
    And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

    John 6:40
    For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    John 6:44
    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:54
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Martha also mentioned it in John chapter 11.

    John 11:24
    Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

    Even Daniel was told that he would rise at the end of days.

    Daniel 12:13
    As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

    So, it seems pretty obvious that the resurrection occurs on the last day. This means there are no more days (rising and setting of sun) after the resurrection. Which means it happens just before the great day of the Lord which is a day without sun or moon, a day when evening comes there will still be light, a day without night. (Revelation 22:5)

    This also means it happens at the end of the thousand years, not before the thousand years (because if there are no more days, there are also no more years).

    1 Corinthians 15 further confirms this.

    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father

    Acts 3:21 also confirms this, telling us that Jesus will stay in heaven until the time of the new heavens and new earth.
    Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.


     
  6. Razare

    Razare God gave me a throne

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    He means until his return, they should be kept from evil while we are in the world. This means it is God's will we do not fall into evil, but many of us do anyway.

    This verse really doesn't apply to pre-trib rapture, supporting it or rejecting it. If you wanted to apply it to that, you should likewise apply it to all other instances such as death. We could say this verse supports the idea that no man dies, since it's God's will we do not leave this world. It would be equally as applicable to apply it to death, as to apply it to the pre-trib rapture.

    Rather, what Christ was praying, was specific to the age of the church. It did not undo the church age, no more than it eliminated the physical body from dying.

    A verse has to be applied to what it concerns, and cannot be taken out of the context of what it concerns.

    Another example is:

    eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, - Exodus 21:24
    vs.
    Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. - Matthew 5:7

    Which verse do you use? They contradict, but you have to pick one of them, and then also explain why the other verse is not wrong, but that God had something better in mind as to why the other verse was given. Both verses are right, and both are 100% contradictory in nature... other than mercy can only exist by there first being judgement. Without judgement, there is no mercy. So mercy is always built atop judgement, but certainly they contradict in behavior as polar opposites.

    In the verse you gave, Christ simply did not mean to apply in such a broad context where we would never ever leave Earth under no circumstances. Many have already left to be with Christ.
     
  7. Razare

    Razare God gave me a throne

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    "last day" is a pretty loose peg to hang your hat on.

    Post-trib does always get these nice sayings from the Bible to line up well, though. Irvin Baxter is pretty convincing with them. Post-trib sucks the life out of Christianity, though.
     
  8. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Sucks the life out of Christianity? You make it sound like we should believe pre-trib because it will make us feel good. I'm sure that's not what you meant. ;)
     
  9. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    "last day" is not a "loose peg" as you put it. It's an irrefutable statement of the timing of the resurrection found in scripture six times. The resurrection happens on the last day. You can't deny that without denying scripture itself.
     
  10. MWood

    MWood Newbie

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    What does "the last day" really mean?
    Does it mean the last day of the old earth?
    Does it mean the last day of the 1000 year reign?
    Does it mean the last day of the Holy Spirit before It is taken up from earth?
    Does it mean the last day before the final resurrection?
    Does it mean the last day before the first resurrection?
    Does it mean the last day before the Saints are caught up into the clouds?
    Tell me if you know. Research all the context of the scripture where "the last day" is mentioned. Then you will know. Then tell me when you know.
     
  11. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Since "the last day" is not qualified by anything, it just simply means the last day. In other words, there will be no more days after this day. It's plain English. Not sure why people like to make this so complicated.
     
  12. Straightshot

    Straightshot Member

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    "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
    -John 17:15

    I'm a pre trib believer, but I can't help but be bothered by this verse. does this prove posttribulation, or is there a way around this? I'd like some answers"


    Here is your answer

    Jesus knew that it was not time for His call to immortalize His own and knew that they would be subject to Satan's meddling during their life in the body
     
  13. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    This verse has nothing to do with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. It has everything to do with the Armour of God, and how Christians are preserved from the attacks of the Evil One. The corresponding verse is that greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.
     
  14. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    No one is stopping you from being miserable, if you enjoy that. But the Blessed Hope is for those who believe it is the Blessed Hope.
     
  15. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Miserable? You think looking forward to the resurrection makes me miserable? I don't need eternal life in an incorruptible new body to be 42 months early just to feel hopeful. I can wait.

    I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it sounds like you're saying only those who believe there will be an early rapture, will take part in the early rapture. Is that what you're saying? :scratch:
     
  16. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think this can apply now . . . that now our Father keeps us from the evil one.

    We will be taken out, at one time or another, in one way or another.

    He could keep us from the evil one and then rapture us pre-trib, if He wanted. And He is easily able to keep us from the evil one during the trip and then rapture us. I think people could use this verse for either idea.

    We need to be ready for whatever He could decide to do with us. Instead of fearing tribulation, trust God to have us ready for whatsoever He knows we will go through with Him :)
     
  17. MWood

    MWood Newbie

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    This verse is Jesus talking about His Disciples at that time, Not about the Saints of today.
     
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I am disturbed by the last clause, "is there a way around it?"

    This approach so often used by Christians of all stripes in regard to many subjects, reveals a fundamentally false approach to scripture.

    If I am looking for "a way around" ANY passage of scripture, I am simply rejecting what God says. A more proper question here would have been, "have I misunderstood this?"

    I am well known in this forum as an avid pre-tribber. So this comment has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture, but with a seriously false approach to scripture.
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The pretrib doctrine has become one of the most divisive among Christians.

    If you dare to reveal the source of the doctrine, you will be condemned by those who cannot let go of it.

    At one time Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together as leaders of the Plymouth Brethren.
    After Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" doctrine of the Irvingites and divided scripture into that for the Jews and that for the Church, Newton could not accept Darby's new doctrine and came under personal attack by Darby. That same spirit is alive and well on this forum and in churches throughout our nation.

    A local Baptist pastor had to start part of his training all over again with another pastor, after his supervising pastor learned he did not hold the pretrib viewpoint. He was attacked in the same way that Darby attacked Newton.

    If you really want the truth take a look at the following, but be prepared to be called a liar by those who are promoting the doctrine John Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.



    http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

    .
     
  20. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If Jesus means He will resurrect His bride church before the great tribulation, then what Jesus knows is good. But I have not found a scripture which in simple words says anything like "Jesus will come back immediately before the great tribulation" or anything like this in simple words which can speak for themselves. And I know the Holy Spirit is literate enough to give us such a simple statement in scripture if this is so important, like ones treat it to be so important and needing so much attention . . . and so many books which people pay money for.

    But, in scripture, the Holy Spirit has given us various other plainly worded statements which someone with basic language skills can understand and explain, freely receiving and not having to pay much time and money to study and understand and buy books and pay people. Jesus gives us freely; He used fishermen. And in the scriptures I see many very important and beneficial teachings but not something like "the resurrection of the church will be before the great tribulation".

    I find it strange how ones can claim a simply worded pre-trib statement, but it takes many hours and dollars and books and word to argue it, and there is no so-clear statement of this, right in the Bible.

    But ones can make up things which are not clear in scripture, and it can take a lot of money and time to pay to get them to give us what they are saying. And there can be threats against those who do not believe in pre-trib, threats that someone will miss out, and other things. But this does not prove that pre-trib is false, but that ones are holding to it in a wrong way. God knows. Even if beliefs are true, there are ones who can promote them the wrong way. So, if people have wrong ways of believing and pushing and selling something, this does not automatically mean it is wrong!

    However, if a belief is not clearly stated in scripture and you hold to it, there is the risk of getting into making an idol of people who are promoting what the Bible does not say in simple and plain words. And people can make themselves like they are superior to others. Well, I can do this, myself, using what the Bible does plainly say. So, who am I to talk? :) We can oversimplify ourselves to isolated verses, too, and then make things very complicated :eek:

    So - - - if Jesus means He will resurrect His bride church "immediately after the tribulation of those days" > Matthew 24:29-31 < then this is good, if this is what Jesus means.

    Whenever Jesus comes, this will be good, of course ! ! !

    If Jesus comes after the greatest tribulation ever, this will be good, and God is easily able to keep us loving and serving Him, no matter what we go through. So, there is no reason to fear post-trib.

    Our Heavenly Father is not like an abusive dad who can beat his well-behaved children along with his naughty kids. So, God is easily able to control Himself from hurting His children while He is exerting His wrath judgments. And it is clear that not all people will be killed during the great tribulation. So, if evil people won't all be killed, because of God in control deciding who dies and who does not, certainly we in Jesus have no reason to fear His wrath judgments hurting us.

    And while His wrath judgments are messing with evil people, I consider, how much can they do to us?

    "And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

    Nothing can happen except in God's perfect control of every detail. And if we obey Jesus in His peace in us, "you will find rest for your souls", He unconditionally guarantees . . . meaning, though, how this is possible with God. So, in case someone is living weak and not in obedience to God's peace, this person can easily get into trouble about circumstances and wishfully believe that he or she won't go through a great tribulation. But even if you are weak now, God is able to make us stronger in Jesus love. So, don't base a belief on how you are weak or failing, now :idea:

    The real God is so more than any power of evil (1 John 4:4). But, most of all, this means He is able to change us to be like His Son Jesus, so we are really ready for the rapture. Jesus says "be ready", in Matthew 24:44. So, it is important not to let our attention be tricked into arguing about beliefs . . . instead of becoming all which Jesus means by "ready".

    You might notice how certain ones arguing for pre-trib or for post-trib are not giving as much attention to how Jesus means for us to "be ready". Make sure your attention is with God and how He guides you, including through His correction >

    Hebrews 12:4-11.

    "rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

    "with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

    "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

    This is all how God does this in us, not depending on ourselves to get our own selves to do this >

    "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

    God is the One who is spiritual enough (2 Corinthians 3:5, 2 Corinthians 12:7-15). We all need more correction and maturation. No one of us has somehow been superior to anyone else so we have gotten our own selves to succeed in this while others have failed. We all have needed the same basic correction . . . of His love's perfection (1 John 4:17-18) making us conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29. God is the One who is spiritual enough to take you, just as you are, and bless you how He knows His word means to Him > Isaiah 11:55. This is better than what I or any other human can tell you :) So, submit to Himself, all the time, for all which is possible with Him :) And, of course, He includes us in helping one another with this. Because our Heavenly Father is about family loving.

    God bless you :)

    Bill
     
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