Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

[jerry kelso]

Please show me specifically where in the bible it says anything about 2 separate returns of Christ.
I'm certainly not an expert, but I tend to take the bible for what it says and I've never seen anything in it that says Christ returns twice, once for the Rapture and another for judgement.
It just seems to me that it requires some interpretive gymnastics to come up with a pre-tribulation Rapture, but if you take the writings at face value, then the Rapture comes after the Great Tribulation.
In addition, it's always been my understanding that the early church fathers did not believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture.
Is this incorrect?

saverio,

1. The first coming is when Jesus came to the Jews in his earthly ministry and to die for the world.

2. The second coming is at the battle of Armageddon when he comes down to earth from Heaven with his saint which are comprised of the Old Testament saints, the church age saints, and the tribulation saints but not the earthly Jewish remnant or the main part of the body who are preserved in the wilderness in Revelation 12.

3. The rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints because they didn't fully understand the church age.
Paul talks about the mystery of the church in Ephesians 2:15; 3:5. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

baberean2,

1. You are not telling the truth by saying I believe goes back to the Old Testament and explained why, so that is your deduction and opinion.

2. I didn't say the age of grace ended at all you are dreaming. I said the age of grace of salvation is forever according to the new covenant.

3. I also said that the rebuilding of the temple was about destruction and the Jews getting the horse before the cart.
I even said the Jewish companies that are saved are saved under the new covenant.
If you are going to continue to outright say I believe something I don't just because you hate what some other dispensationalist may have said you don't need to be posting. I still forgive you but you are not being truthful or fair.
Btw your position on the spiritual Jew to the extreme etc. is an orthodox Jewish belief and is not what true Messianic Jewish believers believe. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. You are not telling the truth by saying I believe goes back to the Old Testament and explained why, so that is your deduction and opinion.

2. I didn't say the age of grace ended at all you are dreaming. I said the age of grace of salvation is forever.

3. I also said that the rebuilding of the temple was about destruction and the Jews getting the horse before the cart.
I even said the Jewish companies that are saved are saved under the new covenant.
If you are going to continue to outright say I believe something I don't just because you hate what some other dispensationalist may have said you don't need to be posting. I still forgive you but you are not being truthful or fair. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

You are mutating the original form of Dispensational Theology in an attempt to make it agree more with scripture.

The problem is that you are attempting to trim fruit which is rotten to the core.

I have no hard feelings against you.

However, I must speak against the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which you are promoting.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

You are mutating the original form of Dispensational Theology in an attempt to make it agree more with scripture.

The problem is that you are attempting to trim fruit which is rotten to the core.

I have no hard feelings against you.

However, I must speak against the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which you are promoting.

baberean2,

1. I am not mutating anything, that is just your opinion.

2. You hate dispensationalism and I get it when you say things like you never heard a new covenant message in your dispensational church or that they taught that God deals with the Jews in the tribulation under the Old ethic. That is wrong.
It is also wrong to use you bad experience with a dispensational church as a crutch to slam anyone who believes in dispensations that doesn't believe what you say they believe when it has been proven that is not the case.
It is also wrong to be accused of mutating the scripture when I have proved that is not true.
This reverts back to your bad experience and hatred for dispensationalism. You ought to be ashamed that you would stay blinded to that fact.

3. Your position is an orthodox Jewish doctrine that is not Messianic Judaism belief and is not true.

4. I will ask you again; do you believe in gradual revelation in the context that God dealt with men in different ages in different ways? Answer the question and quit diverting! Jerry kelso

 

[LastSeven]

I
Anyway, I've always felt that 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 specifically places the Rapture at the "the last trumpet", which would be AFTER the Great Tribulation.

Yup. And it also makes it clear that this happens at the end of Jesus' reign, not the beginning.

 

[BABerean2]

I will ask you again; do you believe in gradual revelation in the context that God dealt with men in different ages in different ways? Answer the question and quit diverting! Jerry kelso

I will let the writer of the Book of Hebrews answer your question about how God dealt with men in the past.

Heb_11:4　 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
Heb_11:5　 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "AND WAS NOT FOUND, BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb_11:6　 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Heb_11:7　 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb_11:8　 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb_11:9　 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
Heb_11:11　 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.
Heb_11:13　 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb_11:17　 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb_11:20　 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Heb_11:21　 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
Heb_11:22　 By
faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.
Heb_11:23　 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's command.
Heb_11:24　 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb_11:27　 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.
Heb_11:28　 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb_11:29　 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.
Heb_11:30　 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.
Heb_11:31　 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb_11:33　 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb_11:39　 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

God has always dealt with men and women through faith.

We should all use the New Testament writers as our witnesses to interpreting the Old Testament, based on progressive revelation of scripture.

A person could go to the Old Testament and tell me I am forbidden from eating shrimp.

However, if we use the New Testament writers as our witnesses, we know that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". (Hebrews 8:13)

Much of the confusion found in the modern Church is because the New Covenant has been buried under manmade traditions. There is a clear difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ. (Hebrews 12:18-24)

Sadly, the Judaisers have won the day during most of the last 2,000 years.

I have to wonder how many souls could have been saved if they had been presented with an understanding of the New Covenant, which makes the whole Bible a book about Jesus Christ?

John Darby's doctrine turns the New Covenant Church, made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together, into a "parenthesis" in God's Plan for the nation of Israel.
This takes the focus off of Christ and replaces it with a race of people and a piece of land.
It is a form of "Replacement Theology".

.

 

[SeventyOne]

That would be a week of years

70 weeks of years = 490 years

.

I know what it's supposed to mean, I was just using the context you provided. You said in point a that the "confirming" of the covenant was, "By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles", and point B was His death and resurrection in the middle.

So, you either have Him preaching 3 1/2 years, dying and rising, then preaching an additional 3 1/2 years, or you have Him doing the same things but on a much shorter 3 1/2 day schedule.

Of course, you are confusing two different things and attempting to squish them together and make them make sense, which they don't, not even a little. Daniel 9 and Matthew 26 aren't referencing the same events.

 

[SeventyOne]

I haven't read through all the posts, so if anyone has already said this, I apologize.
Anyway, I've always felt that 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 specifically places the Rapture at the "the last trumpet", which would be AFTER the Great Tribulation.
In addition, Matthew 24:39-40 seems to speak of the Rapture and places it after the events of verses 4-30.
That's just my two cents for what it's worth.

The last trumpet most likely refers to 100th trumpet blast pertaining to the Feast of Trumpets, which is the feast where the timing of which no man knows the day or the hour, because it is a 2-day event that only begins in the fall after a sighting of the new moon in the fall (7th month). No one knows what day or hour the sighting will be made.

Jesus started fulfilling the feast days in His first coming. Such as his death as Lamb of God on Passover, as the bread of life fulfilling the Feast of Unleavened Bread, fulfilling Firstfruits at His resurrection, and then Pentecost when He sent the Spirit and formed His Church. The speculation is just as the Church age began on a feast day, it also ends on the feast day described as not knowing the day or the hour, and also having an actual last trump associated with it, being the Feast of Trumpets.

Matthew 24 aren't rapture verses.

 

[BABerean2]

I know what it's supposed to mean, I was just using the context you provided. You said in point a that the "confirming" of the covenant was, "By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles", and point B was His death and resurrection in the middle.

So, you either have Him preaching 3 1/2 years, dying and rising, then preaching an additional 3 1/2 years, or you have Him doing the same things but on a much shorter 3 1/2 day schedule.

Of course, you are confusing two different things and attempting to squish them together and make them make sense, which they don't, not even a little. Daniel 9 and Matthew 26 aren't referencing the same events.

No. I did not say that. It came straight from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


The promise of the New Covenant had already been given to Jeremiah and is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Remember that Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah, when the angel Gabriel appeared. Daniel 9 is about the Messiah who would fulfill this New Covenant in His Blood, as found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13 and Hebrews 12:18-24.


Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

I will let the writer of the Book of Hebrews answer your question about how God dealt with men in the past.

Heb_11:4　 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
Heb_11:5　 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "AND WAS NOT FOUND, BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb_11:6　 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Heb_11:7　 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb_11:8　 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb_11:9　 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
Heb_11:11　 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.
Heb_11:13　 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb_11:17　 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb_11:20　 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Heb_11:21　 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
Heb_11:22　 By
faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.
Heb_11:23　 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's command.
Heb_11:24　 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb_11:27　 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.
Heb_11:28　 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb_11:29　 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.
Heb_11:30　 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.
Heb_11:31　 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb_11:33　 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb_11:39　 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

God has always dealt with men and women through faith.

We should all use the New Testament writers as our witnesses to interpreting the Old Testament, based on progressive revelation of scripture.

A person could go to the Old Testament and tell me I am forbidden from eating shrimp.

However, if we use the New Testament writers as our witnesses, we know that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". (Hebrews 8:13)

Much of the confusion found in the modern Church is because the New Covenant has been buried under manmade traditions. There is a clear difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ. (Hebrews 12:18-24)

Sadly, the Judaisers have won the day during most of the last 2,000 years.

I have to wonder how many souls could have been saved if they had been presented with an understanding of the New Covenant, which makes the whole Bible a book about Jesus Christ?

John Darby's doctrine turns the New Covenant Church, made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together, into a "parenthesis" in God's Plan for the nation of Israel.
This takes the focus off of Christ and replaces it with a race of people and a piece of land.
It is a form of "Replacement Theology".

I will let the writer of the Book of Hebrews answer your question about how God dealt with men in the past.

Heb_11:4　 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
Heb_11:5　 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "AND WAS NOT FOUND, BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb_11:6　 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Heb_11:7　 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb_11:8　 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb_11:9　 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
Heb_11:11　 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.
Heb_11:13　 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb_11:17　 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb_11:20　 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Heb_11:21　 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
Heb_11:22　 By
faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.
Heb_11:23　 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's command.
Heb_11:24　 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb_11:27　 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.
Heb_11:28　 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb_11:29　 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.
Heb_11:30　 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.
Heb_11:31　 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb_11:33　 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb_11:39　 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

God has always dealt with men and women through faith.

We should all use the New Testament writers as our witnesses to interpreting the Old Testament, based on progressive revelation of scripture.

A person could go to the Old Testament and tell me I am forbidden from eating shrimp.

However, if we use the New Testament writers as our witnesses, we know that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". (Hebrews 8:13)

Much of the confusion found in the modern Church is because the New Covenant has been buried under manmade traditions. There is a clear difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ. (Hebrews 12:18-24)

Sadly, the Judaisers have won the day during most of the last 2,000 years.

I have to wonder how many souls could have been saved if they had been presented with an understanding of the New Covenant, which makes the whole Bible a book about Jesus Christ?

John Darby's doctrine turns the New Covenant Church, made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together, into a "parenthesis" in God's Plan for the nation of Israel.
This takes the focus off of Christ and replaces it with a race of people and a piece of land.
It is a form of "Replacement Theology".

.

baberean2,

1. There was more than faith.

How did the rules of everyday living life differ before the Mosaic law, during the law, and after the law of Moses?

2. Use the new Testament writers as witnesses to understand Old Testament truth.
No wonder you don't know much about the Old Testament. The intricate workings of all the commandments of Moses law are not mentioned in the New Testament.
The Old Testament concealed is in the New Testament revealed is true but not in every jot and tittle.

3. The church age is today of Jews and gentiles.
The church age is raptured because training for the kingdom is now 2 Timothy 2:12.
Israel's purging in the tribulation for their covenants are eternal Isaiah 66:7-9, Matthew 24 when they flee to Judea, Zechariah 13:9, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12 etc.
The church is not purged and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it.
Israel has to be purged for they are backslidden and obedience is required for entrance into the kingdom.

4. There is no such thing as a parenthesis except in your mind.

5. It doesn't ale the focus off of Christ for he will be the vicar of the earth and rule out of Jerusalem.
Israel won't replace Christ for they or the church wouldn't be saved or have any rulership positions at all. That is a ridiculous statement and there would be no reason to rule at all if that were the case. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

2. Use the new Testament writers as witnesses to understand Old Testament truth.
No wonder you don't know much about the Old Testament. The intricate workings of all the commandments of Moses law are not mentioned in the New Testament.
The Old Testament concealed is in the New Testament revealed is true but not in every jot and tittle.

I understand that Paul used the Old Testament to preach Christ to the Jews.
I know enough to do the same thing.

He is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15.

He is the seed promised to Abraham in Genesis 12:3 and proven by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

He is the suffering servant of Isaiah chapter 53.

He is the one who would fulfill the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13.
The words "sin" and "iniquity" in the Jeremiah 31 passage are also found in Daniel chapter 9. Based on the timeline given by the angel Gabriel, the New Covenant Messiah would come before the second temple was destroyed in 70 AD.


I know the Baal worshippers and the 7,000 found in the Old Testament are a shadow of the faithful and unfaithful Israelites in Romans 11.

I know that Abraham's offering of his son Isaac in the land of Moriah, was a shadow of God offering His Son on Mount Moriah.

I know that based on the words of Christ on the road to Emmaus the whole Old Testament is about Him.

I know He is the Son and heir of the vineyard owner in Matthew chapter 21, who was killed in the same way that Jezebel schemed to steal land from the vineyard owner during her time.

I know that you have no idea about the original teachings of Dispensational Theology, based on what you have said so far.

Below is a sample from two former professors at Dallas Theological Seminary. In it you will see that the "parenthesis" idea came from them, not from me.


Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.



Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


.

 

[jerry kelso]

I understand that Paul used the Old Testament to preach Christ to the Jews.
I know enough to do the same thing.

He is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15.

He is the seed promised to Abraham in Genesis 12:3 and proven by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

He is the suffering servant of Isaiah chapter 53.

He is the one who would fulfill the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13.
The words "sin" and "iniquity" in the Jeremiah 31 passage are also found in Daniel chapter 9. Based on the timeline given by the angel Gabriel, the New Covenant Messiah would come before the second temple was destroyed in 70 AD.


I know the Baal worshippers and the 7,000 found in the Old Testament are a shadow of the faithful and unfaithful Israelites in Romans 11.

I know that Abraham's offering of his son Isaac in the land of Moriah, was a shadow of God offering His Son on Mount Moriah.

I know that based on the words of Christ on the road to Emmaus the whole Old Testament is about Him.

I know He is the Son and heir of the vineyard owner in Matthew chapter 21, who was killed in the same way that Jezebel schemed to steal land from the vineyard owner during her time.

I know that you have no idea about the original teachings of Dispensational Theology, based on what you have said so far.

Below is a sample from two former professors at Dallas Theological Seminary. In it you will see that the "parenthesis" idea came from them, not from me.


Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.



Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


.

baberean2,

1. I Agee with them and that is what have been saying all the time.

2. The term used by Judaism is that the Jews were promised the law, the land and the kingdom forever.

3. The law of Moses came because of sins and was till the seed should come.
The Jews have to have the law under the new covenant due to culture and salvation of the cross.
You don't believe in Messianic Judaism. You believe in Orthodox Judaism and seem to support an Orthodox Judaism and for the most part don't even believe in Jesus as the Messiah or the Son of God.
So you are the one that don't understand true dispensationalism which lines up with Messianic Judaism. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. I Agee with them and that is what have been saying all the time.

2. The term used by Judaism is that the Jews were promised the law, the land and the kingdom forever.

3. The law of Moses came because of sins and was till the seed should come.
The Jews have to have the law under the new covenant due to culture and salvation of the cross.
You don't believe in Messianic Judaism. You believe in Orthodox Judaism and seem to support an Orthodox Judaism and for the most part don't even believe in Jesus as the Messiah or the Son of God.
So you are the one that don't understand true dispensationalism which lines up with Messianic Judaism. Jerry kelso

This is double-talk.

You said I did not know anything, when I plainly said that Dispensationalists claim the Church is a "parenthesis". Now you say you agree with it.

My wife and I financially support a ministry known as "Word of Messiah Ministries", which is made up of Messianic Jews. How can you say I do not believe in Messianic Judaism?

And next you try to tell me "and for the most part don't even believe in Jesus as the Messiah or the Son of God."

Jerry, What in the world are you talking about?

Based on Hebrews 8:13, the Old Covenant law is now "obsolete". It is no more.

As I have already shown you in Matthew chapter 21, Christ is the heir to the land instead of those who reject Him as the Chief Cornerstone. He said the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another. In 1 Peter 2:9 we find out who the other is.

You have rejected what Jesus said and agree with those promoting classic John Darby Dispensationalism, which you have been denying for so long now.

Now the others here watching our conversation, have finally seen the truth.

Sam Nadler of Word of Messiah Ministries

Not only do my wife and I support Sam Nadler, who is a Messianic Jew, but I also had the privilege to meet him and shake his hand. I bought and read his book "Messianic Foundations".

You owe me an apology, Jerry.

 

[jerry kelso]

This is double-talk.

You said I did not know anything, when I plainly said that Dispensationalists claim the Church is a "parenthesis". Now you say you agree with it.

My wife and I financially support a ministry known as "Word of Messiah Ministries", which is made up of Messianic Jews. How can you say I do not believe in Messianic Judaism?

And next you try to tell me "and for the most part don't even believe in Jesus as the Messiah or the Son of God."

Jerry, What in the world are you talking about?

Based on Hebrews 8:13, the Old Covenant law is now "obsolete". It is no more.

As I have already shown you in Matthew chapter 21, Christ is the heir to the land instead of those who reject Him as the Chief Cornerstone. He said the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another. In 1 Peter 2:9 we find out who the other is.

You have rejected what Jesus said and agree with those promoting classic John Darby Dispensationalism, which you have been denying for so long now.

Now the others here watching our conversation, have finally seen the truth.

Sam Nadler of Word of Messiah Ministries

Not only do my wife and I support Sam Nadler, who is a Messianic Jew, but I also had the privilege to meet him and shake his hand. I bought and read his book "Messianic Foundations".

You owe me an apology, Jerry.

This is double-talk.

You said I did not know anything, when I plainly said that Dispensationalists claim the Church is a "parenthesis". Now you say you agree with it.

My wife and I financially support a ministry known as "Word of Messiah Ministries", which is made up of Messianic Jews. How can you say I do not believe in Messianic Judaism?

And next you try to tell me "and for the most part don't even believe in Jesus as the Messiah or the Son of God."

Jerry, What in the world are you talking about?

Based on Hebrews 8:13, the Old Covenant law is now "obsolete". It is no more.

As I have already shown you in Matthew chapter 21, Christ is the heir to the land instead of those who reject Him as the Chief Cornerstone. He said the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another. In 1 Peter 2:9 we find out who the other is.

You have rejected what Jesus said and agree with those promoting classic John Darby Dispensationalism, which you have been denying for so long now.

Now the others here watching our conversation, have finally seen the truth.

Sam Nadler of Word of Messiah Ministries

Not only do my wife and I support Sam Nadler, who is a Messianic Jew, but I also had the privilege to meet him and shake his hand. I bought and read his book "Messianic Foundations".

You owe me an apology, Jerry.

baberean2,

1. You read wrong. In your post you said that the dispensational view turns the new covenant into a paranthesis. That is you opinion. You said later on that Schafer said that. I replied that there is no such thing so I didn't agree with Schafer or you in either post.
I agree with the main points about the covenant still to come as Israel's earthly calling.

2. I do apologize about the support for Orthodox Jew thing.
I thought I looked up who you supported and somehow got to Rabbi Echstein. I recognized who he was from TV coommercials of helping poor Jews and he is orthodox and believes some of the basic eschatological views that you believe.
Either way the truth is there are different views from Messianics and some hold to my position and others to yours.
Some hold to one law theology and the two house theology etc.

3. I don't believe every jot and tittle that a dispensationalist says anymore than you do with every Messianic Jewish belief and it doesn't mean I am a spokesman for them.
Now I gave you my apology you give me your apology for saying I believe something I have clearly said that I didn't and then proved it by the scripture. That is about the 2 gospels versus 1 and I am talking about the whole context. There is only one gospel of redemption for man's soul and we agree on that. You don't have any admit there is a gospel concerning the physically cal KoH reign.
You know there will be kingdom reign on earth with Christ as ruler over all the earth.
You exclude Israel from repenting and entering into their eternal covenants of Abraham and David.
Paul said God has not forgotten his people and that is talking about the nation of Israel not individual Jews.
Israel and Judah are the two sticks and are never mentioned in the light of the church of Jews and gentiles.
Both Israel and Judah will be backslidden and have to be purged by repentance and will be trodden under the foot of men like in their rejection in Jesus day and fell in 70A.D.
The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church and the church will not have to be purged.
So you are still wrong and you owe me an apology. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

I do apologize about the support for Orthodox Jew thing.
I thought I looked up who you supported and somehow got to Rabbi Echstein. I recognized who he was from TV coommercials of helping poor Jews and he is orthodox and believes some of the basic eschatological views that you believe.
Either way the truth is there are different views from Messianics and some hold to my position and others to yours.
Some hold to one law theology and the two house theology etc.

Any Messianic group that puts their faith in law keeping is wrong as Paul points out in Galatians chapter 5.

Gal 5:1　 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.　
Gal 5:2　 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.　
Gal 5:3　 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.　
Gal 5:4　 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.　

Jerry, I have shown you over and over again that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God as one and the same. I will prove it here once again, by using God's Word.

Many of the older classic Dispensationalists claim the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same. However, a parallel study of the Gospels reveals the error of this logic.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.



Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

In the last two consecutive verses above we have Christ using both terms interchangeably, proving that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same.

This proves you are in error, not based on what I say, but based on what God says.

How are we to treat other believers who repeat and ignore error, over and over again? Please tell me so I will know how to handle this situation.

 

[Saverio]

The last trumpet most likely refers to 100th trumpet blast pertaining to the Feast of Trumpets, which is the feast where the timing of which no man knows the day or the hour, because it is a 2-day event that only begins in the fall after a sighting of the new moon in the fall (7th month). No one knows what day or hour the sighting will be made.

Jesus started fulfilling the feast days in His first coming. Such as his death as Lamb of God on Passover, as the bread of life fulfilling the Feast of Unleavened Bread, fulfilling Firstfruits at His resurrection, and then Pentecost when He sent the Spirit and formed His Church. The speculation is just as the Church age began on a feast day, it also ends on the feast day described as not knowing the day or the hour, and also having an actual last trump associated with it, being the Feast of Trumpets.

Matthew 24 aren't rapture verses.

I beg to differ. Matthew 24 is all about the signs of Jesus's return. And then with all of that as context, Matthew 24:40-41 says, "Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."

If that's not talking about the Rapture then it makes absolutely no sense.

I've asked so many pre-tribers over the years to just show me one passage or verse in the bible where it says there are 2 separate returns of Christ.
I'm still waiting.

 

[BABerean2]

I beg to differ. Matthew 24 is all about the signs of Jesus's return. And then with all of that as context, Matthew 24:40-41 says, "Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."

If that's not talking about the Rapture then it makes absolutely no sense.

I've asked so many pre-tribers over the years to just show me one passage or verse in the bible where it says there are 2 separate returns of Christ.
I'm still waiting.

You are most certainly on the right track.
Let me share something with you about those "left behind".
Tim LaHaye did not even get the title right.
Let us look at the text of scripture in an effort to understand who are "left behind".

The secret to understanding the Bible is that all passages must agree with each other. If there is conflict it means we do not have the correct interpretation.

Mat 24:38　 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,　

Mat 24:39　 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.　(It is the wicked who are taken here.)

Mat 24:40　 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
　
Mat 24:41　 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
　
Mat 24:42　 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.


If we are consistent in our use of the word "taken" above, it is the wicked who are "taken". This is confirmed by the following from Luke's Gospel.

Luk 17:36　 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."　

Luk 17:37　 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."　(Vultures eat the dead.)



All of this makes sense if we compare these passages to the parable of the wheat and tares, which describes the Second Coming.

Mat 13:30　 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "　


The tares are gathered first to be destroyed, while the wheat is gathered to the barn. We are the wheat at the Second Coming.

I appreciate you looking for the truth.

.
　

 

[jerry kelso]

Any Messianic group that puts their faith in law keeping is wrong as Paul points out in Galatians chapter 5.

Gal 5:1　 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.　
Gal 5:2　 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.　
Gal 5:3　 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.　
Gal 5:4　 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.　

Jerry, I have shown you over and over again that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God as one and the same. I will prove it here once again, by using God's Word.

Many of the older classic Dispensationalists claim the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same. However, a parallel study of the Gospels reveals the error of this logic.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.



Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

In the last two consecutive verses above we have Christ using both terms interchangeably, proving that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same.

This proves you are in error, not based on what I say, but based on what God says.

How are we to treat other believers who repeat and ignore error, over and over again? Please tell me so I will know how to handle this situation.

baberean2,

1. Matthew 19: 16-24 is the whole passage about the young man and eternal life.
Jesus told him to do the commandments to enter life because they had to do the law of Moses.
The young man said he had kept them all so he asked, what did I lack? Jesus told him to sell all he had and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven: and come and follow me.
He was sad because he was rich.
Verse 23 was about entering into the Kingdom of Heaven which was the same as in verse 21 "in Heaven".
Verse 24: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a a rich man to enter the KoG.
This phrase, easier through the eye of the needle is in reference to the overall passage which has to do with receiving eternal life.
Matthew 6:33 says to seek the KoG and all his righteous and all these things shall be added unto you. The Jews were never told to seek the KoH for salvation.
The KoG cometh not with observation is the spiritual aspect that concerns salvation. The physical kingdom reign is on the earth and is physically visible.
It takes salvation to gain entrance into the KoH reign. The new covenant believers will go to Heaven where the Lord is building mansions John 14:6 and not about the earthly KoH reign on earth.
1 Timothy 6:9: But they will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
Verse 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Christ knew the rich man loved his money more than serving God which showed where his heart was and why he wouldn't accept eternal life and could not enter the physical KoH reign.
I am not in error and you don't understand context.
I am still waiting for your apology. Jerry kelso

 

[Jack Terrence]

Any Messianic group that puts their faith in law keeping is wrong as Paul points out in Galatians chapter 5.

Gal 5:1　 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.　
Gal 5:2　 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.　
Gal 5:3　 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.　
Gal 5:4　 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.　

Jerry, I have shown you over and over again that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God as one and the same. I will prove it here once again, by using God's Word.

Many of the older classic Dispensationalists claim the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same. However, a parallel study of the Gospels reveals the error of this logic.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.



Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

In the last two consecutive verses above we have Christ using both terms interchangeably, proving that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same.

This proves you are in error, not based on what I say, but based on what God says.

How are we to treat other believers who repeat and ignore error, over and over again? Please tell me so I will know how to handle this situation.

Under the video it says that the descendants of Jacob need to hear the Gospel now. But the descendants of Jacob no longer exist. And even if they did we could not know who they are because all the genealogical records were destroyed in the siege of Jerusalem in AD70. Modern "Jews" are actually Ashkenazi Gentiles who have adopted the Jewish religion. And modern "Israel" is not Biblical Israel. Modern Israel is a secular state which was founded by the U.N. in 1948. God doesn't know them as the Israel he established.

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 19: 16-24 is the whole passage about the young man and eternal life.
Jesus told him to do the commandments to enter life because they had to do the law of Moses.
The young man said he had kept them all so he asked, what did I lack?

Jerry,

Do you really think this young man had kept the ten commandments his whole life?
You know better than this, based on what the Apostle Paul said in his letters.
Only Christ kept the commandments perfectly.

Christ could have called the young man a liar, which he clearly was.
However, instead of calling him out as a liar Christ gave him something else that he could not do.

If commandment keeping is the standard, King David was condemned as an adulterer and one who conspired to have Uriah killed so he could gain his wife. This proves that commandment keeping has never been the standard. It has always been "faith".

.

.