Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

[BABerean2]

This would also provide ample time for Christians to flee Jerusalem safely once they witnessed the first lifted siege upon the Great city. see Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 21:20-24.

We know that Cestius Gallus surrounded the city in 66 AD and that the early Christians did heed the warning of Christ to flee.

However, the rest of your 7 year period comes from your attempt to make a history lesson fit a 7 year period of tribulation that is not found in the text of the Bible.

This whole 7 year tribulation period comes from a misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27.

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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[random person]

The scripture you quoted has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

EVERYTHING hinged on Israel's repentence? So the 1st Century Jews defeated God's purpose and plans?

Changed His plans?

In spite of His teachings in Matthew 21:33-43 (a parable about 1st century Israel); Matthew 22:1-10 (a parable about 1st century Israel), and Matthew 23:29-36?

 

[random person]

We know that Cestius Gallus surrounded the city in 66 AD and that the early Christians did heed the warning of Christ to flee.

However, the rest of your 7 year period comes from your attempt to make a history lesson fit a 7 year period of tribulation that is not found in the text of the Bible.

This whole 7 year tribulation period comes from a misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27.

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

Jewish spirits were high after the defeat of Cestius Gallus in Beth Horon. But also Vespasian had Jerusalem besieged on three sides but once he learned Galba had been assassinated by his own guards, and Rome broke out in civil war between the two new pretenders Vitellius and Ortho were engaged in civil war. Vespasian paused his Roman attacks in Judaea and joined the fray and defeated both armies. There was also the Batavian revolt and also a newly proclaimed Emperor Julius Sabinus in Gaul that had to be put down too before the siege of Jerusalem could resume.

 

[BABerean2]

Jewish spirits were high after the defeat of Cestius Gallus in Beth Horon. But also Vespasian had Jerusalem besieged on three sides but once he learned Galba had been assassinated by his own guards, and Rome broke out in civil war between the two new pretenders Vitellius and Ortho were engaged in civil war. Vespasian paused his Roman attacks in Judaea and joined the fray and defeated both armies. There was also the Batavian revolt and also a newly proclaimed Emperor Julius Sabinus in Gaul that had to be put down too before the siege of Jerusalem could resume.

When are you going to deal with the fact that we live on a planet that is not eternal ?

Every false doctrine is exposed not by the scripture that they quote, but by the scripture they must ignore to make their system work.

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[random person]

When are you going to deal with the fact that we live on a planet that is not eternal ?

Every false doctrine is exposed not by the scripture that they quote, but by the scripture they must ignore to make their system work.

.

Here is a collection of promises found in the Scripture for covenantal eschatologists to stand upon:

And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down EVERY LIVING creature as I have done.

Genesis 8:21

God in Genesis promised to never again kill every living creature ever again. It doesn't matter whether by water or fire. No more destruction of ALL life - PERIOD!

In his days may the righteous flourish,
and peace abound, till the moon be no more!

May his name endure forever,
his fame continue as long as the sun!
May people be blessed in him,
all nations call him blessed!

Psalms 72:7,17

He built his sanctuary like the high heavens,
like the earth, which he has founded forever.

Psalms 78:69

His offspring shall endure forever,
his throne as long as the sun before me.
Like the moon it shall be established forever,
a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah

Psalms 89:36-37

He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.



Psalms 104:5

Praise him, you highest heavens,
and you waters above the heavens!
Let them praise the name of the Lord!
For he commanded and they were created.
And he established them forever and ever;
he gave a decree, and it shall not pass away

Psalms 148:4-6

A generation goes, and a generation comes,
but the earth remains forever.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

to him be glory IN the church and in Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 3:21

Please remember the futurist and the partial preterist believe Christ is going to destroy the whole material universe: earth, the sun, and the moon along with it. And create a New Heavens and New Earth whereby Resurrected Christians will inhabit forever and ever in a deathless and sinless EDENIC utopia living in mansions created by God Himself called New Earth.

However, how do they explain these passages:

“For behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth,
and the former things shall not be remembered
or come into mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in that which I create;
for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy,
and her people to be a gladness.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem
and be glad in my people;
no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping
and the cry of distress.
20 No more shall there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not fill out his days,
for the young man shall die a hundred years old,
and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.


There will be infants?
There will be old men?
Young men will die?
There will be accursed sinners?
There will be infants, old men, accursed sinners amongst the Resurrected in the New Earth? And young men will die in the New Earth?

21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
they shall not plant and another eat;
for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain
or bear children for calamity,
for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the Lord,
and their descendants with them.


People will build their own houses?
They will plant their own vineyards?
They will labor not in vain?
They will bear Children?
There will be offspring?
There will be descendants?
The Resurrected in the New Earth will produce all of these things themselves?

24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are yet speaking I will hear.


Prayers? The Resurrected will pray in a perfect New Earth and New Heavens?

25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together;
the lion shall eat straw like the ox,
and dust shall be the serpent's food.
They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain,” says the Lord.

ISAIAH 65:17-25

and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.

Gentiles for priests and Levites in the New Earth?


22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.

Offspring? The Resurrected will produce offspring in the New Earth?

23 From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the Lord.

24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me.

Dead bodies in the New Earth? Why are they still around after the literal dissolution of the heavens and the earth?

For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

ISAIAH 66:19-24

 

[random person]

Check out this article I posted up:

Eutheos, the Achilles heel of partial preterism​

In Matthew 24:29, Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" the Son of Man would come in power and great glory, and, "he will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another" (Matthew 24:31). Simply stated, the gathering at the sound of the trump is nothing less than the resurrection! (C.f. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Notice the complex of events, the Abomination, the Tribulation, parousia, the gathering of the elect. It should be noted that the parousia and gathering of the elect (the resurrection), would come "immediately after" the Tribulation. Many commentators try to say there is a disjunction here, and that all Jesus was saying is that at some point in the future, the parousia would occur. Or, it is claimed that the "immediately after" simply means "the next thing on the prophetic agenda, regardless of when it occurs."

This rather desperate attempt at exegesis fails on grammatical grounds, as well as contextual. The word translated as immediately, is eutheos (Εὐθέως). This is the word that is used the most often to describe the effect of Jesus' healing miracles. The healing always took place "immediately," and that does not mean that the person eventually got better! They were healed, instantly. The only reason that anyone suggested that "immediately" in Matthew 24:29 does not have temporal significance is because of what they perceive as a failed prediction. In other words, their literalistic concept of what Jesus predicted did not happen immediately, therefore, rather than honor the normal, consistent definition and use of the word, they completely redefine the word. This is unjustified, and should be rejected.

The parallels between Daniel and the Olivet Discourse are direct and precise. Daniel 9 foretold the death of Messiah, the Abomination of Desolation, which of course would lead to the Tribulation and the destruction of Jerusalem, and the consummation of the seventy weeks. The consummation of the seventy weeks would be kingdom and resurrection, the salvation of Israel.

Although the death of Jesus is not specifically mentioned in Matthew 24, it lies behind the text nonetheless. We then find the Abomination, the Tribulation, the parousia and the gathering of the elect. Jesus emphatically posited all of those things for his generation (v. 34).

Daniel 7 and the Discourse are also parallel. Daniel's prediction is focused on the days of the fourth kingdom, i.e. Rome. The Little Horn persecutes the saints. The Son of Man comes in judgment of the persecutor, vindicating the saints, and delivering the kingdom to them.

In the Olivet Discourse, which Jesus said would be fulfilled in his generation (during the days of the Roman empire!), Jesus predicted the persecution of the saints (Matthew 24:9f). The persecutor however, is identified as the nation of Israel. Jesus foretold the Abomination of Desolation, the Tribulation, followed by his coming on the clouds of heaven in vindication of the saints. This would be the time of the kingdom (Luke 21:28-31).

Daniel 12 contains identical motifs. We find the Abomination of Desolation (12:11), the time of tribulation (12:1), the deliverance of the saints (12:1), the time of the end (12:4) and the time of the kingdom (12:3). Significantly, Daniel was told that the final fulfillment of his vision would be when Israel was completely destroyed (12:7, matching Daniel 9:27 perfectly), and Jesus said that his prediction would be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in his generation. The dove-tailing of these details is no mere coincidence, and should not be ignored. Daniel posits the Tribulation in the context of Israel's judgment and last days, and Jesus does as well.

Our study of Daniel, the Tribulation, the resurrection, and thus, of course, the Day of the Lord, has demonstrated that not only does the Tribulation belong to Israel and her last days, but, the Tribulation was to be an immediate precursor and sign of the resurrection and kingdom. The fact that not only Daniel, but, Jesus and the N.T. said that the Tribulation was to occur in the first century generation is prima facie proof that the parousia and the resurrection was to occur in that same generation.

Don K Preston

Here is the thread and respond to me here, BABerean.

To avoid hijacking this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-of-partial-preterism-full-preterism.7967820/

 

[random person]

Here is another thread you and I can participate in without hijacking this thread:

Why was Israel promised everlasting righteous?

​

In order to properly understand Daniel's prophecy of the arrival of the world of everlasting righteousness, we must understand Daniel, and thus Israel's standing under Torah, the Mosaic Covenant world.

When Daniel wrote, he and Israel, was living under Torah, the law that could not give righteousness. It was under that system that Isaiah lamented, "Justice is turned back, and righteousness stands afar off; truth is fallen in the streets" (Isaiah 59:14), and, "all of our righteousness are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6).

In the Jewish mentality, righteousness was inextricably related to the Torah (Luke 1:6). As a faithful Jew, Paul wrote of the Torah, "If a law could have been given that could have given life, then, verily, righteousness would have been through the Law." (Galatians 3:20-21).

So, living under that system that could never impart righteousness, Daniel was told of a new order when righteousness would be the order of the Day.

Paul spoke of the Torah, written and engraven in stone, as, "the ministration of death" (2 Corinthians 3:6f), because it not only could not give life, but, it made sin abound (Romans 5:20f). And, "sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead" (Romans 7:8). Thus, "I was alive once, without the Law, but the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Romans 7:9). As a result, "The commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death" (Romans 7:10). In other words, the Torah was "the strength of sin."

It identified sin.​

It accused the sinner.​

It made sin abound.​

It brought death.​

It was the ministration of (the) death.​

That means that the goal of Daniel 9 was the New Covenant world of Messiah.

It must be emphasized that the seventy week countdown included the time when the Mosaic Covenant was still in effect. In other words, the Mosaic Covenant as the strength of sin and the ministration of death, would remain valid during the seventy week countdown. But, lying on the horizon, at the climax of the countdown, lay the wonderful New Covenant world of Messiah, the ministration of righteousness and life (2 Corinthians 3:9).

What is the world of everlasting righteousness?​

Was Daniel's anticipated world of righteousness a renewal of material creation, the restoration of physical Edenic utopia, or was it the giving of the New Covenant relationship, wherein righteousness was given, where life was possible? Notice the strongly covenantal context of Daniel. The covenantal context cannot be ignored, for in reality, righteousness is a covenantal concept, and is not a matter of rocks and trees. It has to do with man's standing before God, not how green the grass is, or how clean the water is.

Don K Preston

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-everlasting-righteousness-full-preterism.7967961/

 

[BABerean2]

Joh 17:15　 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.　

The pretrib doctrine lives or dies on several additions to the text of scripture.

An antichrist and a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel must be added to Daniel 9:27. We must also assume the angel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, even though Christ confirmed He would bring in the New Covenant in Matthew 26:28. We must ignore the fact that Christ would be "cut off" "after" the 69 weeks, which would be during the 70th week using normal logic. We must also ignore that any time occurred in which the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people during the first century. All of this must be done to produce a future 70th week of Daniel, so that God can go back and provide another chance of salvation for modern Jews outside of the New Covenant Church. If it can be proven that the 70th occurred during the first century the whole thing crumbles to the ground like a house of cards.


The second addition to the text is built upon the one above. Even though there is nothing in the text of 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 about a 7 year stay in heaven, it is imported into the text from Daniel 9:27.


There is nothing in the Book of Revelation about a 7 year period of tribulation. It comes from Daniel 9:27 or is produced by adding together two of the occurrences of the 3 1/2 year period of time from the Book of Revelation. The time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18 must be ignored or explained away to make the book fit into the perfect chronology of the Dispensationalists.

This whole system collapses once one comes to understand that the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13 is found to be an "everlasting" covenant in Hebrews 13:20. This is why you will not hear many sermons on the New Covenant coming from Dispensational preachers.

The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul provides no path of salvation for the branches broken off of the tree. Dispensationalists have a habit of changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner in Romans 11:26, to the word "then", which is an adverb of time in order to make their doctrine work. They sometimes refer to "the time of the Gentiles", but then ignore the words of Christ in Luke 21:24-28 which show that the times of the Gentiles ends at the Second Coming of Christ.

We find those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. One cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ. The 144,000 are the "firstfruits" of the Lamb, which is a term Paul used to describe Christians in Romans 16:5.

If John 17:15 does not destroy modern Dispensational Theology, an understanding of the "everlasting" New Covenant does.

2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　

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[Saverio]

I haven't read through all the posts, so if anyone has already said this, I apologize.
Anyway, I've always felt that 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 specifically places the Rapture at the "the last trumpet", which would be AFTER the Great Tribulation.
In addition, Matthew 24:39-40 seems to speak of the Rapture and places it after the events of verses 4-30.
That's just my two cents for what it's worth.

 

[BABerean2]

I haven't read through all the posts, so if anyone has already said this, I apologize.
Anyway, I've always felt that 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 specifically places the Rapture at the "the last trumpet", which would be AFTER the Great Tribulation.
In addition, Matthew 24:39-40 seems to speak of the Rapture and places it after the events of verses 4-30.
That's just my two cents for what it's worth.

Thank you for using your Bible.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ


Jerry Kelso is an Apologist for Dispensational Theology.
He cannot let go of John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine.
He seems to believe that God has two separate plans of salvation, based on a person's DNA.
.

 

[jerry kelso]

I haven't read through all the posts, so if anyone has already said this, I apologize.
Anyway, I've always felt that 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 specifically places the Rapture at the "the last trumpet", which would be AFTER the Great Tribulation.
In addition, Matthew 24:39-40 seems to speak of the Rapture and places it after the events of verses 4-30.
That's just my two cents for what it's worth.

Saverio,

1. The 7th trumpet is in the middle after the tribulation.
It has nothing to do with the pre-trib rapture before the tribulation in Revelation 4:1 and Revelation 4&5. Matthew 29 is about the second coming of Christ to the battle of Armageddon with his saints out of Heaven Revalation 19:11-15.
To understand the trumpets concerning Israel in the tribulation one must have to understand the feast days. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Thank you for using your Bible.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ


Jerry Kelso is an Apologist for Dispensational Theology.
He cannot let go of John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine.


.

baberean2,

1. Do you believe I gradual revelation of God dealing with men differently in different ages?

2.Quoting scriptures is not always enough if you don't understand the context!

3. I believe the true context of the word and I have studied to see if the dispensationalists say the truth just like knowing what the covenant theology say and even Berean theology and they are more right in much more than the others on main main doctrines.
I am probably closer than you as a berean in the Bible in the respect of searching out the truth. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Quoting scriptures is not always enough if you don't understand the context!

Jerry,

If you cannot get your doctrine to work without ignoring or explaining away some scripture, then there is a problem.

An understanding of the New Covenant destroys Dispensational Theology, which claims God is going back to the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant with the modern nation of Israel during a future time period of 7 years, even though the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

For some time I kept asking myself why I never heard a sermon on the New Covenant at my Dispensational church body?

Now I know why.

If modern Christians understood that Christ fulfilled the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 as found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, the game would be over for the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

If they had a chance to see the reference to Daniel 9:27 in the 1599 Geneva Bible they would clearly see that the covenant with the many in the verse is the same as the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................
Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

 

[SeventyOne]

Jerry,

If you cannot get your doctrine to work without ignoring or explaining away some scripture, then there is a problem.

An understanding of the New Covenant destroys Dispensational Theology, which claims God is going back to the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant with the modern nation of Israel during a future time period of 7 years, even though the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

For some time I kept asking myself why I never heard a sermon on the New Covenant at my Dispensational church body?

Now I know why.

If modern Christians understood that Christ fulfilled the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 as found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, the game would be over for the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

If they had a chance to see the reference to Daniel 9:27 in the 1599 Geneva Bible they would clearly see that the covenant with the many in the verse is the same as the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

So, he preached the gospel for one week, and one week only? Well, not even that, if he died in the middle of the week (your point b).

You are actually saying he preached the gospel for only 3 1/2 days. I seem to recall his ministry taking a bit longer than that.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

If you cannot get your doctrine to work without ignoring or explaining away some scripture, then there is a problem.

An understanding of the New Covenant destroys Dispensational Theology, which claims God is going back to the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant with the modern nation of Israel during a future time period of 7 years, even though the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

For some time I kept asking myself why I never heard a sermon on the New Covenant at my Dispensational church body?

Now I know why.

If modern Christians understood that Christ fulfilled the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 as found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, the game would be over for the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

If they had a chance to see the reference to Daniel 9:27 in the 1599 Geneva Bible they would clearly see that the covenant with the many in the verse is the same as the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................
Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

baberean2,

1. Talk about ignoring, you ignored answered my question, do you believe in gradual revelation in the context of God dealing with men in different ages in different ways? Answer that and then we'll talk about your ridiculous accusation against dispensational theology.
And what is your context of the new covenant not being in your former church? Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

If you cannot get your doctrine to work without ignoring or explaining away some scripture, then there is a problem.

An understanding of the New Covenant destroys Dispensational Theology, which claims God is going back to the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant with the modern nation of Israel during a future time period of 7 years, even though the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

For some time I kept asking myself why I never heard a sermon on the New Covenant at my Dispensational church body?

Now I know why.

If modern Christians understood that Christ fulfilled the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 as found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, the game would be over for the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

If they had a chance to see the reference to Daniel 9:27 in the 1599 Geneva Bible they would clearly see that the covenant with the many in the verse is the same as the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................
Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

baberean2,

1. Nobody said that God deals with Israel in the tribulation under the Old covenant.
If you heard that from your church they were wrong and if you are deducting that from your impression of the sacrifices starting as in Revelation 11 you are wrong.
I have told you more than once that salvation is only through the new covenant for Israel since the cross and it will be the same in the future tribulation for the Jews. The 144,000 and the Jewish remnant and those that sing the song of Moses and the lamb are all saved by the new covenant.
I also told you that the angel's rod in Revelation is not for measuring and building of the temple alone. It is about a rod of destruction. This is why the Abomination of Desolation happens to the temple.
This will be the time of false hope for Israel.
Israel is backslidden now and are talking already about building the temple etc.
Just like they had tunnel vision in Jesus day and was focused on a conquering Messiah and setting up the kingdom and ignore the condition of the physical rule was salvation.
In the tribulation they will still be backslidden and get focused on the old covenant way.
Then the antichrist will come on the scene and 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 will come through the fire.
The remnant will have the testimony of Jesus which is the new covenant.
Elijah has to come back and restore all things to get Israel to Repent so they can gain entrance into the KoH reign.
Once again you are wrong that I believe what you say I believe. Quit falsely accusing me.

2. The new covenant is everlasting but it has not been made with the nation of Israel for they are still backslidden and will be in the future but will come back to God at the end of the tribulation and that is why Paul agrees with David and the eternal covenant conditioned by obedience when he said the gifts and callings of Israel are without repentance. You are wrong again. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

So, he preached the gospel for one week, and one week only? Well, not even that, if he died in the middle of the week (your point b).

You are actually saying he preached the gospel for only 3 1/2 days. I seem to recall his ministry taking a bit longer than that.

That would be a week of years

70 weeks of years = 490 years

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[BABerean2]

Nobody said that God deals with Israel in the tribulation under the Old covenant.

Jerry,

You are ignorant of the original doctrine that you are advocating. Get an old Scofield Reference Bible and read the commentary notes in it.

They claim the Age of Grace comes to an end at the pretrib rapture of the Church and then God goes back and deals with Israel under the Old Covenant system.

This is why they need a rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifices.

Another good source is the book "Things to Come" by Dwight Pentecost who was once a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. That seminary was a chief promoter of the doctrine.
The book was recommended by one of my Sunday-School teachers, who had attended Dallas. I bought it and read it.

.

 

[Saverio]

Saverio,

1. The 7th trumpet is in the middle after the tribulation.
It has nothing to do with the pre-trib rapture before the tribulation in Revelation 4:1 and Revelation 4&5. Matthew 29 is about the second coming of Christ to the battle of Armageddon with his saints out of Heaven Revalation 19:11-15.
To understand the trumpets concerning Israel in the tribulation one must have to understand the feast days. Jerry Kelso

Please show me specifically where in the bible it says anything about 2 separate returns of Christ.
I'm certainly not an expert, but I tend to take the bible for what it says and I've never seen anything in it that says Christ returns twice, once for the Rapture and another for judgement.
It just seems to me that it requires some interpretive gymnastics to come up with a pre-tribulation Rapture, but if you take the writings at face value, then the Rapture comes after the Great Tribulation.
In addition, it's always been my understanding that the early church fathers did not believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture.
Is this incorrect?

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

You are ignorant of the original doctrine that you are advocating. Get an old Scofield Reference Bible and read the commentary notes in it.

They claim the Age of Grace comes to an end at the pretrib rapture of the Church and then God goes back and deals with Israel under the Old Covenant system.

This is why they need a rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifices.

Another good source is the book "Things to Come" by Dwight Pentecost who was once a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. That seminary was a chief promoter of the doctrine.
The book was recommended by one of my Sunday-School teachers, who had attended Dallas. I bought it and read it.

.

baberean2,

1. You are not telling the truth by saying I believe goes back to the Old Testament and explained why, so that is your deduction and opinion.

2. I didn't say the age of grace ended at all you are dreaming. I said the age of grace of salvation is forever.

3. I also said that the rebuilding of the temple was about destruction and the Jews getting the horse before the cart.
I even said the Jewish companies that are saved are saved under the new covenant.
If you are going to continue to outright say I believe something I don't just because you hate what some other dispensationalist may have said you don't need to be posting. I still forgive you but you are not being truthful or fair. Jerry kelso