Does hell exist?

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OldShepherd

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Today at 05:24 AM Spiderrr said this in Post #259

Iranaeus, the Bishop of Lyons (c.130 to 200 C.E.)

“Wherefore also He drove him out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, ... but because He pitied him [and did not desire], that he should continue a sinner for ever, nor that the sin which surrounded him should be immortal, and evil interminable and irremediable. But He set a bound to his [state of] sin, by interposing death, and thus causing sin to cease, putting an end to it by the dissolution of the flesh, which should take place in the earth, so that man, ceasing at length to live to sin, and dying to it, might begin to live to God.”

• Against Heretics, Book III, Chapter. 23.6
I will only address this first "quote" in your litany Spiderr. I am assuming that this entire list is a blind copy, cut, and paste from some Uni. website. You will see a link, to the ECF online, with each one of my quotes because I researched every one of them myself.

First, all these so-called quotes ignore and do NOT address the quotes I posted which showed the ECF consistently taught an eternal place of torment and punishment. Just throwing a long list of copy, pasted quotes at the board does not refute anything I posted.

Second, this is one of the most egregiously, dishonest arguments I have seen in a long time. Here is your so-called quote IN-CONTEXT. The paragrah you quoted is NOT about mankind but one man, Adam, specifically. It is a small part of Irenaeus' argument against a heretic, Tatian.
  • Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Chapter XXIII.-Arguments in Opposition to Tatian, Showing that It Was Consonant to Divine Justice and Mercy that the First Adam Should First Partake in that Salvation Offered to All by Christ.

    1. It was necessary, therefore, that the Lord, coming to the lost sheep, and making recapitulation of so comprehensive a dispensation, and seeking after His own handiwork, should save that very man who had been created after His image and likeness, that is, Adam,* * *

    6. Wherefore also He drove him [Adam] out of Paradise, and removed him [Adam] far from the tree of life, not because He [God] envied him [Adam] the tree of life, as some venture to assert, but because He pitied him, [and did not desire] that he [Adam] should continue a sinner for ever, nor that the sin which surrounded him [Adam] should be immortal, and evil interminable and irremediable. But He [God] set a bound to his [Adam’s] [state of] sin, by interposing death, and thus causing sin to cease,459 putting an end to it by the dissolution of the flesh, which should take place in the earth, so that man, [Adam] ceasing at length to live to sin, and dying to it, might begin to live to God.

    * * *When therefore the Lord vivifies man, that is, Adam, death is at the same time destroyed.

    8. All therefore speak falsely who disallow his (Adam's) salvation, shutting themselves out from life for ever, in that they do not believe that the sheep which had perished has been found.465

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-60.htm#P7902_2166910
More quotes from this same work.

  • For this purpose did He give them this exhortation: "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to send both soul and body into hell; "346 [thus exhorting them] to hold fast those professions of faith which they had made in reference to Him. For He promised to confess before His Father those who should confess His name before men; but declared that He would deny those who should deny Him, and would be ashamed of those who should be ashamed to confess Him.

    They indeed, had they been cognizant of our future existence, and that we should use these proofs from the Scriptures, would themselves never have hesitated to burn their own Scriptures, which do declare that all other nations partake of [eternal] life, and show that they who boast themselves as being the house of Jacob and the people of Israel, are disinherited from the grace of God.

    the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent.

    And this same thing does the Lord also say in the Gospel, to those who are found upon the left hand: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into ever: lasting fire, which my Father hath prepared for the devil and his angels; "454 indicating that eternal fire was not originally prepared for man, but for him who beguiled man, and caused him to offend-for him, I say, who is chief of the apostasy, and for those angels who became apostates along with him; which [fire], indeed, they too shall justly feel, who, like him, persevere in works of wickedness, without repentance, and without retracing their steps.

    Chapter XXV.-This World is Ruled Providence of One God, Who is Both Endowed with Infinite Justice to Punish the Wicked, and with Infinite Goodness to Bless the Pious, and Impart to Them Salvation.

    Therefore the Father will excel in wisdom all human and angelic wisdom, because He is Lord, and Judge, and the Just One, and Ruler over all. For He is good, and merciful, and patient, and saves whom He ought: nor does goodness desert Him in the exercise of justice,480 nor is His wisdom lessened; for He saves those whom He should save, and judges those worthy of judgment. Neither does He show Himself unmercifully just; for His goodness, no doubt, goes on before, and takes precedency.

    4. The God, therefore, who does benevolently cause His sun to rise upon all,481 and sends rain upon the just and unjust, shall judge those who, enjoying His equally distributed kindness, have led lives not corresponding to the dignity of His bounty; but who have spent their days in wantonness and luxury, in opposition to His benevolence, and have, moreover, even blasphemed Him who has conferred so great benefits upon them.
 
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Terry.Trent

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my dad says that hell is the grave-that very might be. when drmmjr said 'Scripturally speaking, hell is the grave. Hell is an English word derived from the Anglo-Saxon word “helan”, which means “to cover” or “to hide out of sight"', i think it sounds reasonable. Every one goes to the grave-even Jesus went to the grave (tomb-same thing). But he rose again. If i remember correctly, during the end-times, when Jesus descends to take all those that have been saved to heaven, He also takes those that were saved, but have died. So their bodies go to heaven along with all that were saved.

but does that mean that everyone must goto hell before they goto heaven? I think not. I believe that along with your physical body, you have a spiritual soul that will goto heaven and receive your new body that God promises.
 
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FineLinen

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My friend, greetings. No matter how hard the "doctors" of eternal torment twist and turn, the following Scriptures are what the Old Covenant reveal about the word sheol, translated hell by our King James Translators.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31365-22.html

Questions

1. Why did the translators translate hell for half the passages and grave for the other half from the same word in Hebrew?

2. Locate each passage from sheol that describes "eternal torment."

3. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ went to hell. Why was our Lord sent to "endless punishment"?

4. Is the Presence of the Holy One in hell? If so why? If not why not?
 
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Good question FL.

I don't mean this sacrilegiously, but if Christ paid our price for sin and took our punishment in full (which most of us believe fundamentally); and if our penalty really was eternal torment in the pit of hell, it would stand to reason that Christ should be suffering this consequence today. If not, did he really pay our price in full?

It begs the question; could this mean that the penalty paid by Christ was something other than the 'Hell' we have always been taught?
 
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OldShepherd

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2nd April 2003 at 04:40 AM FineLinen said this in Post #263

My friend, greetings. No matter how hard the "doctors" of eternal torment twist and turn, the following Scriptures are what the Old Covenant reveal about the word sheol, translated hell by our King James Translators.
You are the one twisting an turning and scoffing at that which proves your unorthodoxl teachings wrong. NOTHING but your own endless repetition of certain verses, and ignoring others, supports your heresy. You pretend that you have presented scriptural arguments but have ignored other verses which contradict you. And here we go again with the endless litany of OUT-OF-CONTEXT questions which all cults have."If you answer my questions and ignore the context and the rest of the Bible, this will prove that I am right." Visit an Islamic site and see if they don't have a list of questions and see if they don't have their list of questins, from the Bible, that proves, in their, eyes that Islam is right and Christianity wrong. The answer is "Systematic Theology" NOT isolated, out-of-context questions.
Questions

1. Why did the translators translate hell for half the passages and grave for the other half from the same word in Hebrew?
Because in certain contexts it means grave and in other contexts it means Hell as I have proved repeatedly from Jewish sources. Much like the English word fire. If someone says, "My boss "fired" me today.", does that mean that he was set ablaze with a literal flame? How about a scriptural example, does the word "cried" mean to weep or to call out in a loud voice?

Was John weeping or calling out with a loud voice?

  • Mt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (Mr 1:3 Lu 3:4 Joh 1:23)
2. Locate each passage from sheol that describes "eternal torment."
Irrelevant, in some contexts it means something other than the grave, i.e. a place of eternal torment in fire. Pre-Christian Judaism taught a literal hell of eternal torment in flames. The two major rabbinical schools in existence during the 1st century, Shammai and Hillel, taught the same. Nothing in the N.T. contradicts this.

No matter how hard the "heretics" of universal salvation twist and turn, the following Scriptures are what the Old Covenant reveals about the word "sheol", translated hell by our King James Translators.

How does beating a child with a rod keep him out of the grave?

How do scattered graves move, rise up, and speak to the king of Babylon when he comes to a supposedly individual grave?"sheol"

  • Prov 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
    14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [sheol]

    Isa 14:9 Hell [sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
    10 All they shall speak[/i] and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
3. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ went to hell. Why was our Lord sent to "endless punishment"?
Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was buried in a tomb, ONE (1) of the meanings of the Greek word "hades." A fact which you seem incapable of understanding. Cognitive dissonance.

  • Strong's 86 AdhV hades hah’-dace
    from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
    and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
    AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11
    1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
    2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
    3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
    In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, #Lu 16:23; Re 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.

    Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek
    Haidês or haidês , ou, ho, Att.; Ep. Aïdês , ao and eô; Dor. Aïdas, a, used by Trag., in lyr.and anap.: gen. Aïdos, dat. Aïdi, Hom., Trag., v. infr.: (perh. a- priv., idein):--in Hom. only as pr.n. Hades, Zeus kai egô, tritatos d' Aïdês Il.15.188 , cf.Hes.Th.455:--ein' Aïdao domoisi in the nether world, Od.4.834; freq. ein, eis Aïdao (sc. domois, domous), as Il.22.389, 21.48; ein Aïdos Il 24.593; Trag. and Att. en Haidou, eis Haidou (sc. oikôi, oikon), S.Aj.865, Ar.Ra.69, etc.; Aïdosde, Adv. to the nether world, Il.7.330, etc.; par' Haidêi, par' Haidên, OT972, OC 1552:--hence,

    2. place of departed spirits, first in Il.23.244 eisoken autos . . Aïdi keuthômai; epi ton haidên Luc.Cat.14 ; eis aïdên AP11.23 ; en tôi haidêi Ev.Luc.16.23 .

    II. after Hom., the grave, death, aïdan lanchanein, dexasthai, Pi.P.5.96, I.6(5).15; haidês pontios death by sea, A.Ag.667, cf. E.Alc.13, Hipp.1047; haidou pulê, Astrol., region below the Horoscope, Vett.Val.179.13.
    2. gen. haidou with nouns in adjectival sense, devilish, thuousan hai. mêter' A.Ag.1235 ; hai. mageiros E.Cyc.397 ; fatal, deadly, diktuon, xiphê hai., A.Ag.1115, E.Or.1399. [a^ Hom. in all forms exc. a_i^dos before vowels; a_i^dês Semon.7.117, prob. in S.OC1689.]
4. Is the Presence of the Holy One in hell? If so why? If not why not?
You have answered your own question, with the name you called Him. He is indeed the Holy One, sinless perfect, not deserving of punishment but He who knew no sin became sin. While on the other hand ALL the righteousnesses of mankind are as filthy rags.

But this is irrelevant to the question does hell exist and are the unrighteous sent there? Is the Holy One in Hell? Let the Bible speak.

  • Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
 
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OldShepherd

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2nd April 2003 at 01:16 PM Terry.Trent said this in Post #266

just like to thank oldshepard for clearing some of that up for me.  stuff he said didn't really fit in with what i have learned.  qutestion to old shepard: were my above statements correct?
Not exactly right. As I have shown with Strong's, LSJ Lexicon, Jewish Encyclopedia, and other sources, pre-Christian Judaism, and the early church writings all show that the words translated "hell" have more than one meaning. In some contexts they mean simply the grave, tomb, etc. and in other contexts they mean a place of torment. I gave O.T. examples above. In other posts I have given N.T. examples.

There are primarily two views which teach that there is no "hell" or place of eternal punishment, by whatever name. One view is "Universalism", i.e. everybody will be saved in the end, reagardless how they lived their lives. The other view teaches, that the righteous are resurrected to eternal life but the unrighteous are simply dead, "hell" is the grave and they are in the grave, fini, dust to dust, end of story.

Both views date to approximately the end of the 19th century.
 
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FineLinen

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Good question FL.

I don't mean this sacrilegiously, but if Christ paid our price for sin and took our punishment in full (which most of us believe fundamentally); and if our penalty really was eternal torment in the pit of hell, it would stand to reason that Christ should be suffering this consequence today. If not, did he really pay our price in full?

It begs the question; could this mean that the penalty paid by Christ was something other than the 'Hell' we have always been taught?

Greetings again Peace. Our Lord, the Last Adam, became sin for us. He entered sheol/hades and led captivity captive by the power of an indestructable life. His life, laid down as the Author and Perfector of the Reconciliation,  stands as the "all the more" testimony of the grace of God reaching to the fallen wrecks of Adam one (1) who by "one man's offence led to many being made sinners." 

 "For as by one man's sin/disobedience many were made sinners 

So

By the obedience of One shall many be made righteous."


**** "The mass of mankind will be made righteous." Richard Weymouth

**** "The whole race will be rendered righteous."  TCNT

 :bow: :bow:

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/a/haillord.htm

 :bow: :bow:
 
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OldShepherd

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3rd April 2003 at 05:46 AM FineLinen said this in Post #268

By the obedience of One shall many be made righteous."
By the obedience of One shall many be made righteous."

By the obedience of One shall many be made righteous."

By the obedience of One shall many be made righteous."


Maybe you can help me out FL., how does this one (1) verse negate Rev 19:20, 20:10, 20:14-15, and 21:8?

  • Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
What happens to those who receive the mark of the beast, who worship the image, those not written in the book of life, the fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars? Is there an escape clause in this book somewhere, that I just can't see?

  • Rev 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
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FineLinen

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Scripture does not negate Scripture! All are one harmonious whole!

For as by one man's disobedience polus were made/constituted/rendered sinners,

SO

By the obedience of One shall polus be made righteous/ the mass of mankind will be made righteous."


"Gar hosper dia heis anthropos parakoe polus kathistemi hamartolos

kai

dia hupakoe heis kathistemi polus kathistemi dikaios."

 :bow: :bow:

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/a/haillord.htm

 :bow: :bow:
 
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OldShepherd

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4th April 2003 at 12:58 AM FineLinen said this in Post #270

Scripture does not negate Scripture! All are one harmonious whole!

For as by one man's disobedience polus were made/constituted/rendered sinners,

SO

By the obedience of One shall polus be made righteous/ the mass of mankind will be made righteous."


"Gar hosper dia heis anthropos parakoe polus kathistemi hamartolos

kai

dia hupakoe heis kathistemi polus kathistemi dikaios."
Well I'm glad that we are agreed that scripture does not negate scripture but they all must harmonize. But you did not answer my other question.

  • What happens to those who receive the mark of the beast, who worship the image, those not written in the book of life, the fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars? Is there an escape clause in this book somewhere, that I just can't see? [As recorded in Rev 14:9-11, 19:20, 20:10, 14,15, and 21:18]

    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Also what happens to those who take away from or add anything to the book that John wrote? Is there a "Get out of jail free" card in this verse somewhere?

Did sin pass upon many, or did sin pass upon ALL of mankind, (Rom 5:12)? Does vs. 19 say that ALL are made righteous, or does it say MANY will be made righteous? What is the difference between ALL and MANY?

  • Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    [* * *]
    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Rom 5:12 dia touto wsper di enoV anqrwpou h amartia eiV ton kosmon eishlqen kai dia thV amartiaV o qanatoV kai outwV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV o qanatoV dihlqen ef w panteV hmarton
    [* * *]
    19 wsper gar dia thV parakohV tou enoV anqrwpou amartwloi katestaqhsan oi polloi outwV kai dia thV upakohV tou enoV dikaioi katastaqhsontai oi polloi
 
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FineLinen

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Does verse 19 negate verse 12?

Are all men sinners or many men?

Are both sides of the equation equal?

Are the many polus sinners the same polus that are made righteous?

Does the offence of one man bring judgement upon all men to condemnation?

What does "even so" mean?

Does the other side of the equation have the same effect by one Man's righteousness?

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation;

even so

by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."


"For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners,

so

by the obedience of One the mass of mankind will be rendered/made righteous."

****************************************************************


Knowing The Heart Of God

...Jesus tells us we must leave the self altogether--yield it, deny it, refuse it, lose it. Thus only shall we save it. Thus only shall we have a share in our own being. The self is given us that we may sacrifice it. It is ours in order that we, like Christ, may have something to offer--not that we should torment it, but that we should deny it; not that we should cross it, but that we should abandon it utterly.

What can this mean - we are not to thwart, but to abandon? How do we abandon without thwarting?

It means this: we must refuse, abandon, deny self altogether as a ruling, or determining, or originating element in us. It is to be no longer the regent of our action. We are no more to think, "what would I like to do?" but "what would the Living One have me to do?"

It is not selfish to take that which God has made us to desire. Neither are we particularly to be praised for giving it up - we should only be wrong not to do so -- when he would deny it of us. But to yield it up heartily, willingly, without a struggle or regret, it not merely to deny the self a thing it would like, but to deny the self itself, to refuse and abandon it and leave it altogether. The self is God's making -- only it must be "slave of Christ", that the Son may make it also the free son of the same Father. It must receive all from him - not as from nowhere. Just like the deeper soul, it must follow Him, not its own desires. It must not be its own law; Christ must be its law.

The time will come when the self shall be so possessed, so enlarged, so idealized by the indwelling God, who is its deeper, its deepest Self, that there will no longer be any enforced denial of it needful. It will finally have been denied and refused and sent into its own obedient place. It will have learned to receive with thankfulness, to demand nothing, to turn no more upon its own centre, or think any more to minister to its own good. God's eternal denial of Himself, revealed in Christ who for our sakes in the flesh took up His cross daily, will have been developed in the man. His eternal rejoicing will be in God - and in his fellows, before whom he will cast his glad self to be a carpet for their walk, a footstool for their rest, a stair for their climbing. ......

..... He is our concern. We are His. Our care is to will His will; His care, to give us all things. This is to deny ourselves.

"Self, I do not have to consult you, but Him whose idea is the soul of you, and of which as yet you are completely unworthy. I have to do, not with you, but with the Source of you, by whom it is that any moment you exist. You may be my consciousness, but you are not my being. If you were, what a poor, miserable, dingy, weak wretch I should be! But my life is hid with Christ in God, whence it came, and whither it is returning - with you certainly, but as an obedient servant, not a master. Submit, or I will cast you from me and pray to have another consciousness given me. For God is more to me than my consciousness of myself. He is my life; you are only so much of it as I can now know at once. Because I have fooled and spoiled you, treated you as if you were mine own self, you have dwindled yourself and lessened me, till I am ashamed of myself. If I were to pay attention to what you say, I should be soon be sick of you. Even now I am disgusted with your paltry, mean face, which I meet at every turn. No! Let me have the company of the Perfect One, not of you! Of my Elder Brother, the Living One! I will not make a friend of my own being! Goodbye, self! I deny you, and will do my best every day to leave you behind me!" (Unspoken Sermons Series2...Self Denial)
 
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FineLinen

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Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus

ara oun wV di enoV paraptwmatoV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV eiV katakrima outwV kai di enoV dikaiwmatoV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV eiV dikaiwsin zwhV

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus

ara oun wV di enoV paraptwmatoV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV eiV katakrima outwV kai di enoV dikaiwmatoV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV eiV dikaiwsin zwhV

Byzantine Majority

ara oun wV di enoV paraptwmatoV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV eiV katakrima outwV kai di enoV dikaiwmatoV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV eiV dikaiwsin zwhV

Alexandrian

ara oun wV di enoV paraptwmatoV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV eiV katakrima outwV kai di enoV dikaiwmatoV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV eiV dikaiwsin zwhV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1049461603-5767.html#18
 
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FineLinen

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Romans 8: 11-23

"If the Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, has his home in you, God, who raised Christ from the dead, will give life even to your bodies, subject to death though they are, through the power of his Spirit, who comes and makes his home within you.

So then, brothers, our duty is not to the lower part of our human nature, nor are we bound to live as it dictates. For, if you live as the lower part of your human nature dictates, you are on the way to death. But, if by the help of the Spirit you put to death the life your animal instincts make you want to live, you will really live. Only those who are led by God's Spirit are God's sons. This Spirit you have received does not leave you in the old relationship to God of terrified slavery. No! This Spirit you have received makes you a son in the family of God, and through this Spirit we can cry to God: 'Father, dear Father!' This same Spirit joins with our spirit in the assurance that we really are children of God. If we are children of God, then we are heirs to all the promises of God. Yes, fellow-heirs with Christ, if our aim in life is to share his glory by sharing his suffering.

In my reckoning, whatever we are called upon to suffer in this present time cannot compare with the glory which is going to burst upon us. For the whole created universe eagerly and expectantly awaits the day when God will show the world who his sons are. For the whole created universe was involved in a process of meaningless frustration, not of its own choice, but by the decree of God who did so subject it. But the situation was never hopeless, because even the created universe itself will be liberated from its servitude to death's decay, and will come to enjoy the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that up to now the whole created universe groans in all its parts, like a woman in the birthpangs. This is not only true of the created universe. We too, even although we have received in the Spirit a foretaste of what the new life will be like, groan inwardly, as we wait longingly for God to complete his adoption of us, so that we will be emancipated from sin, both body and soul." (Dr. Wm. Barclay translation/ The New Testament)


Dr. William Barclay (Many Witnesses One Lord)

http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showbook?item_id=1112
 
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OldShepherd

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4th April 2003 at 10:00 PM FineLinen said this in Post #272

Does verse 19 negate verse 12?

Are all men sinners or many men?

Are both sides of the equation equal?

Are the many polus sinners the same polus that are made righteous?
What are you talking about? You did NOT answer my question. Is some of mankind sinners or is ALL of mankind sinners?
Does the offence of one man bring judgement upon all men to condemnation?

What does "even so" mean?

Does the other side of the equation have the same effect by one Man's righteousness?

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation;

even so

by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."


"For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners,

so

by the obedience of One the mass of mankind will be rendered/made righteous."
Another out-of-context verse. The words you are trying to emphasize are "kai outos", "and thus" or "and so". "Kai" does NOT mean equal!

  • Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. [Note MANY offences, NOT all! OS]
    17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive [Note, only "they which receive" NOT all! OS] abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Robertson, Word Pictures in the N.T.
    So then} (\ara oun\). Conclusion of the argument. Cf. #7:3,25; 8:12, etc. Paul resumes the parallel between Adam and Christ begun in verse #Ro 5:12 and interrupted by explanation (#13) and contrast (#15-17). {Through one trespass} (\di’ henos paraptômatos\). That of Adam. {Through one act of righteousness} (\di’ henos dikaiômatos\). That of Christ. The first "unto all men" (\eis pantas anthrôpous\) as in verse #12, the second as in verse #17 "they that receive, etc."

    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. [Note, once again MANY, NOT all! OS]
.
The rest of your post is not worth reading. You did not answer my question. Here it is again.

Did sin pass upon many, or did sin pass upon ALL of mankind, (Rom 5:12)? Does vs. 19 say that ALL are made righteous, or does it say MANY will be made righteous? What is the difference between ALL and MANY?

  • Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    [* * *]
    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
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FineLinen

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"The judgment is unto all men...so is the free gift!" Romans 5:18

Welcome again to our Father's world. The record of Holy Writ is clear. Judgment is unto all men! No one is excluded. Let us consider for a few moments the words "even so".

"Therefore as by the offence of one, judgement came upon all men to condemnation;.."

*** Therefore as the fruit of one offence reached to all men, and brought upon them condemnation....

*** Well then, as one man's trespass issued in doom for all....

**** To conclude then: As the one fall affected all men for their condemnation....

EVEN SO.....EVEN SO....EVEN SO....EVEN SO....EVEN SO

" even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

*** so, too a single decree of righteousness resulted for all mankind in that declaration of righteousness which brings Life.

*** so also the result of a single deed of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal for all mankind.

*** so through one righteous act there is for all men a justified life.

*** so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.

"Even"

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=2532&version=kjv&type=eng

"So"

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=3779&version=kjv&type=eng

"Even so (kaiv houto) a single decree of righteousness resulted for all mankind in that declaration of righteousness which brings life."

"God often takes a course for accomplishing His purposes directly contrary to what our narrow views would prescribe. He brings a death to our feelings, wishes and prospects when He is about to give us the desire of our hearts." (Author of Amazing Grace, John Newton )

"For to this end we are toiling and struggling (it is because we realize the paramount importance of the spiritual that we labour and struggle) because we have our hope set on the living God who is the Saviour of all men and particularly for those who have accepted His salvation." 1 Tim. 4:10
 
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FineLinen

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Romans Chapter 5

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

And patience experience; and experience hope:

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for all have sinned:

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

But far greater is the gift than was the transgression. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift of grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was to one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon ALL MEN TO CONDEMNATION;

EVEN SO....EVEN SO....EVEN SO....EVEN SO....EVEN SO....

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN UNTO JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

.....But where sin abounded the favour greatly superabounded....

**** the gift of grace has overflowed beyond the outbreak of sin.

*** where sins were multiplied, the loving-kindness of God was lavished ALL THE MORE.

*** Though sin is shown to be wide and deep, thank God grace is wider and deeper still (grace immeasurably exceeded it)

Law slipped in to aggrevate the trespass. But where the sin abounded, the gift of grace superabounded.

In order that, just as sin had reigned in the realm of death, even so now grace is the ruling factor, with righteousness as its purpose and its end, the bringing of men to the eternal Life of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 :bow: :bow:  

http://newhopemusic.com/thine.htm

 :bow: :bow:  
 
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FineLinen

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Famous Quotes Of The Day

"Ph.D's are just some dudes opinion."

"I don't have time to look up my scriptures and yours too."

"A real scholar is one who is widely recognized as having expertise by his peers in the field, and or whose works are used in or by a major college or university."

Wm. Law (Christian Regeneration)

"When religion is in the hands of the mere natural man, he is always the worse for it; it adds a bad heat to his own dark fire and helps to inflame his four elements of selfishness, envy, pride, and wrath...."

Read whatever chapter of Scripture you will, and be ever so delighted with it--yet it will leave you as poor as empty and unchanged as it found you unless it has turned you wholly and solely to the Spirit of God, and brought you into full union with and dependence upon Him." William Law
 
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Terry.Trent

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Ok, i'm not a schollar, or even a great studier of the bible, but I think that where it says 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:' (Romands 5:12), Paul was saying that all men sin.  That means all men will die.  Before I was saved, i as pretty much guarenteed to not goto heaven, as long as i didn't goto Christ.

So when it gets to verse 19, 'For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous', Paul is explaining how it is that God gave man a way to get out of death, and enter into life with Him.  So verse 12 can't negate verse 19.  the two are just explanations of each other.

(i could be wrong, but like i said:  i'm not a schollar)

4th April 2003 at 08:00 AM FineLinen said this in Post #272

Does verse 19 negate verse 12?

 
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FineLinen

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Linen has made another terrible blunder. Is it possible to transfer post numbers 616/617/618 from "Eternal Torment Is A Lie" to this thread? I will repost #616 and trust the moderators will again exercise their kind forbearance in extending an old man a forgiveness point.

Dr. Marvin Vincent Romans Chapter 5

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincentrom5.htm

Vine's Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000932

"Even"= kai= and/also/even/indeed/but

"So"= houto= In this manner/ thus/ so.


Romans 5:19

"For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall polus be made righteous."

Romans 5:21

"That as sin hath reigned in the realm of death, even so now grace is the ruling factor, with righteousness as its purpose and its end the bringing of men to the eternal Life of God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 11: 5

"I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at the present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Romans 6:19

"I use this human anology to bring the truth home to your weak nature, for just as you gaveup the parts of your body in slavory to vice and greater and greater licence, even so now in the same way offer them to the service of Righteousness, which leads to holiness."

Romans 11:30-32

"For just as you at one time had not yielded unto God but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience: Even so have these also now not believed that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God has locked up all in the prison of disobedience that He might have mercy upon all."

1 John 2:6

"He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked/ binds himself to live as Christ himself lived."

James 2:17

"Even so faith, if it is unaccompanied by obedience is dead, being alone."

I Thess. 4:14

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

1 Thess. 2:4

"But even as we have been approved of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth the hearts."

Col. 3:13

"You must bear with one another's faults, be generous to each another, if any man thinks himself aggrieved by his neighbor, even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye/ the Lord's generosity to you must be the model of yours."

Eph. 5:33

"Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see she reverence her husband."

1 Cor. 15:22

"For as in Adam all die, even so through union with Christ will all be made to live."

1 Cor. 2:11

"For what human being can understand a man's thoughts except his own inner spirit? Even so/ so also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." 


 :bow:

Blessing and honour, glory and power

Be unto the Ancient of Days.

From every nation, all of creation

Bow to the Ancient of Days. 


 :bow:

Every tongue in heaven and earth

Shall declare Your glory.

Every knee shall bow at Your throne in worship.

You will be exalted oh God

And Your kingdom will not pass away

Oh Ancient of Days.

 :bow:  

Your kingdom shall reign over all the earth

Sing unto the Ancient of Days

For none can compare to Your matchless worth

Sing unto the Ancient of Days, oh Ancient of Days.

Your kingdom shall reign over all the earth

Oh Ancient of Days.

"In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus every knee of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His Lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by beings in the heavens, of those on the earth and those in the underworld."  Philippians 2: 10-11
 
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