Does hell exist?

[FineLinen]

Vine's Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words

Search All

http://www.menfak.no/bibel/vines.html

Dr. Marvin Vincent New Testament Word Studies

http://www.godrules.net/library/vin...ncent1cor15.htm

1 Cor. 15:22 "All-all. What the all means in the one case it means in the other."

Robertson's Word Pictures Of The New Testament

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/r...5&verse=022

Greek New Testament

http://www.greeknewtestament.com

HTML Greek Study

http://www.htmlbible.com/

Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T. Word Studies

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincent.htm

http://www.cristianet.com.br/downlo...TUDIES IN.pdf

Robertson's Word Pictures Of The New Testament

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/rwp/

Strongs Greek And Hebrew Dictionary

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRINDEX.htm

The Blue Letter Bible

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Bible Crosswalk

http://bible.crosswalk.com

"Omitted all the irrelevant spam," OS

Vines is irrelevant spam?

 Robertson's Word Pictures is irrelevant spam?

Dr. M. Vincent's N.T. Word Studies is irrelevant spam?

The Blue Letter Bible: irrelevant spam?

Dr. Strongs Hebrew/Greek Dictionary:  irrelevant spam? 

Greek New Testament: irrelevant spam?

Bible Crosswalk: irrelevant spam?

 

 

[Peace]

OS,

I'm not a Muslim or a Universalist and I have never even read one page of the Koran.

I didn't say I had any answers and my knowledge of God is limited to my simple understanding of him. I claim no skill for scriptural exegesis. I was simply asking your opinion since you seem to have a good grasp of fundamental Christian doctrine. I only know enough to ask common sense questions.

You sound like the shallow father who tells his child to "believe it because I said it was so." And then you answer a question with a question. As I read your past posts I notice this has been your pattern when you don't like a line of questions. I will not bother you further with my silliness.

Thank you and God bless.

 

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday at 10:04 PM FineLinen said this in Post #301

"Omitted all the irrelevant spam," OS

Vines is irrelevant spam?

 Robertson's Word Pictures is irrelevant spam?

Dr. M. Vincent's N.T. Word Studies is irrelevant spam?

The Blue Letter Bible: irrelevant spam?

Dr. Strongs Hebrew/Greek Dictionary:  irrelevant spam? 

Greek New Testament: irrelevant spam?

Bible Crosswalk: irrelevant spam?

ANYTHING that is posted more than one time becomes spam. Unless it is in response to a specific question or issue. E.g. your long laundry lists of resources which you seem to have an obsessive-compulsive need to post over and over and over again. A link to a resource which you are not referencing or quoting is also spam.

If you are referencing or quoting a resource, e.g. Robertson's Word Pictures, Dr. M. Vincent's N.T. Word Studies, The Blue Letter Bible, Dr. Strongs Hebrew/Greek Dictionary, Greek New Testament, etc., then by all means link to it. How many of those did you actually quote/reference in the subject post?

Whenever you feel the irresistable urge to repost your long list of resources over and over again, may I suggest you link to your previous post, whenever that urge strikes you.

An efficient way to do that is use the "quote" feature and copy the top lines from the quote, which includes the url, copy it into a WP document and save it on your HD. Then whenever the urge strikes you, include that in your post.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 02:15 AM Peace said this in Post #302

OS,

I'm not a Muslim or a Universalist and I have never even read one page of the Koran.

You seem to have a comprehension problem. I did not say you were a Universalist or a Muslim! I compared the views you have presented and your methods to theirs. Perhaps you should try reading my posts.

I didn't say I had any answers and my knowledge of God is limited to my simple understanding of him. I claim no skill for scriptural exegesis. I was simply asking your opinion since you seem to have a good grasp of fundamental Christian doctrine. I only know enough to ask common sense questions.

No what you were doing was arguing with me, whether you have enough integrity to admit it or not. You will notice my first post was quite cordial I quoted some scripture and some comments which you basically ignored and blew off with seven words, "I see where you are coming from. . ." and then reeled off more asinine questions of the same nature with a very obvious agenda. You may not be a Universalist but your arguments certainly are.

You sound like the shallow father who tells his child to "believe it because I said it was so."

If I respond to this in the same manner it only brings me DOWN to your level.

And then you answer a question with a question. As I read your past posts I notice this has been your pattern when you don't like a line of questions.

Oh you mean like this, copied from the post before this one I am responding to.

OS: "Where does the scripture say that Jesus purchased all of humanity with His blood?"

Peace: [1] Didn’t Christ die while we were yet sinners? Doesn't scripture say that Christ was the Lamb slain for the world? Didn't John say that "behold the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world?" (John 1:29)

[2] Was the penalty for sin dealt with in full or only in part?

[3] And what about this passage... and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1John 2:2)

[4] What does propitiation mean to you? And to whom does it apply?

Did you see an answer in there anywhere, I didn't? Notice how you responded to my question with four of your own. Just a little bit of hypocricy here, don't you think?

I will not bother you further with my silliness.

You said it I didn't!

 

[Peace]

Peace to you OldShepherd. His passion is honorable and I respect it. He obviously is a sincere man, but in all due respect, his bias makes it difficult to approach the discussion with any kind of objective reasoning. Once a discussion lapses to personal attacks it tends to lose all constructive benefits. I would hope we could drop this temptation and go on.

The prophet Isaiah quoted God when he said; "Isa 1:18 - "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord, "

We all are bias to some degree, and I realize that it may be impossible, but is there anyone that would like to discuss the different possibilities of Hell and judgment without too much personal bias?

Maybe our pride won't allow this, but it would sure be refreshing to try?

I am very interested in answers to some of the obvious contradictions in the Christian faith that might be resolved with an open discussion that not only includes scripture but reasoning and common sense; a discussion where no question would be considered asinine if its asked with humility.

I personally believe that we will find that any contradictions are only a result of our ignorance and not God's word. Scripture should be used to defend scripture and reasoning should be the friend of truth.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 12:59 AM Peace said this in Post #305

We all are bias to some degree, and I realize that it may be impossible, but is there anyone that would like to discuss the different possibilities of Hell and judgment without too much personal bias?

Maybe our pride won't allow this, but it would sure be refreshing to try?

I am very interested in answers to some of the obvious contradictions in the Christian faith that might be resolved with an open discussion that not only includes scripture but reasoning and common sense; a discussion where no question would be considered asinine if its asked with humility.

I personally believe that we will find that any contradictions are only a result of our ignorance and not God's word. Scripture should be used to defend scripture and reasoning should be the friend of truth.

I agree all the apparent contradictions vanish once the scriptures are read and understood in their entirety, rather than searching through the scriptures trying to find "proof texts" to support ones presuppositions. I also look for understanding in the early church, immediately following the time of the apostles.

In one of my earlier posts on this thread, Here!. I quote the writings of the early church fathers, Ignatius, [30-107 AD], who was a disciple of John the beloved disciple, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and Apocalypse; Polycarp [65-100-155 AD], another disciple of John.; Barnabas, [100 AD]; Justin Martyr, [110-165 AD]; Irenaeus, [120-202 AD], a disciple of Ignatius, and Theophilus [A.D. 115-168-181].

And while the writings of the early church are not inspired, as are the scripture, these writings show us how the early church believed, and understood the scriptures. All of the early church fathers who mention hell, hades, eternal punishment, etc., clearly show that those who reject God and Jesus Christ, in this lifetime, will spend eternity in a place of eternal torment. The unorthodox, doctrine of Universalism, all mankind will be saved regardless, does not begin to appear until the fifth century.

Are we to believe that John got it wrong and taught his followers wrong, and they in turn taught their followers wrong, and that the church, whom Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against, has had it wrong for 2000 years?

 

[OldShepherd]

• De 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Israel is God’s chosen people, He set His love on them. Does God’s love, mercy and grace prevent God from punishing even those he loved when they were disobedient?

• 
  Jeremiah 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused (dabaq) to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
  12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
  13 Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David’s throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
  14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

The word translated “I have caused” is the Hiphil perfect of “dabaq”

• 
  Hebrew 101
  
  08818 Hiphil usually expresses the "causative" action of Qal –
  
  08816 The Perfect expresses a completed action.
  1c) one already completed from the point of view of another
  past act.
  
  01692 דבק dabaq daw-bak’
  a primitive root; TWOT - 398; v
  AV - cleave 32, follow hard 5, overtake 3, stick 3, keep fast 2, ...together 2, abide 1, close 1, joined 1, pursued 1, take 1; 54
  1) to cling, stick, stay close, cleave, keep close, stick to, stick with, follow closely, join to, overtake, catch
  
  1c) (Hiphil)
  1c1) to cause to cleave to
  1c2) to pursue closely
  1c3) to overtake

God “caused”, i.e. the express will of the Father was that the entire nation of Israel, "the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah" cling to Him like a belt, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory but they would not hear [heed and obey]". Therefore God did NOT have pity, or mercy or spare them, God’s love, mercy and grace did not prevent Him from destroying those who disobeyed Him. Will those disobedient rebellious children be reinstated in God’s grace, after He has destroyed them?

Will all of mankind be redeemed regardless how they have lived their mortal lives? Will Aaron and Adolph Hitler sit together in the heavenly realm? Will Moses break bread with Mussolini? Will the martyr Stephen and Stalin stroll paradise together?

 

[Peace]

Are we to believe that John got it wrong and taught his followers wrong, and they in turn taught their followers wrong, and that the church, whom Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against, has had it wrong for 2000 years?

I’m just speaking hypothetically, however, if God’s chosen people were blinded for 2000 years why not the very elect, too?

Paul said that God put a spirit of stupor on Israel and eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, so why couldn’t he do this to the Church, too? (Rom 11:8)  And how would we know? 

Maybe it's just another silly thought but isn't it possible?

 

[Peace]

Israel is God’s chosen people, He set His love on them. Does God’s love, mercy and grace prevent God from punishing even those he loved when they were disobedient?

I have read these passages and they seem very clear but if they mean what we think they mean they would conflict with others promises such as:


Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:26 … and all Israel shall be saved,

And Isa 47: 16: They shall be ashamed And also disgraced, all of them; They shall go in confusion together, Who are makers of idols. But Israel shall be saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; You shall not be ashamed or disgraced Forever and ever.

Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever.


I am not trying to proof text. I have read the passages in full and these quotes don’t appear to be out of context and if they are out of context, what do you think was proper context for them?

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 02:21 PM Peace said this in Post #308

I’m just speaking hypothetically, however, if God’s chosen people were blinded for 2000 years why not the very elect, too?

Paul said that God put a spirit of stupor on Israel and eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, so why couldn’t he do this to the Church, too? (Rom 11:8)  And how would we know? 

Maybe it's just another silly thought but isn't it possible?

No it is not possible, unless Jesus was lying when He told Peter, "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Did Jesus lie, has the church walked in darkness for 2000 years. I think, I also referenced the writings of the early church. Did the early church misinterpret the scriptures, i.e. the disciples of John, Ignatius and Polycarp, and Ignatius' disciple Irenaeus?

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 02:53 PM Peace said this in Post #309

I have read these passages and they seem very clear but if they mean what we think they mean they would conflict with others promises such as:

I am not trying to proof text. I have read the passages in full and these quotes don’t appear to be out of context and if they are out of context, what do you think was proper context for them?

You continue to make the contradiction by imposing your presuppositions on the text. I don't believe you are reading the passages in full.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I already exegeted this passage for FL. Even in English it does NOT say "all WILL be saved" It says "MIGHT be saved"

The word translated "might" is "eleeo" and it is in the subjunctive mood.

• 
  Greek 101
  
  5792 Mood - Subjunctive
  The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."
  
  1653 eleew eleeo el-eh-eh’-o
  from 1656; TDNT - 2:477,222; v
  AV - have mercy on 14, obtain mercy 8, show mercy 2, have compassion 1, have compassion on 1, have pity on 1, have mercy 1, have mercy upon 1, receive mercy 1; 31
  1) to have mercy on
  2) to help one afflicted or seeking aid
  3) to help the afflicted, to bring help to the wretched
  4) to experience mercy
  For Synonyms see entry 5842

Rom 11:26 … and all Israel shall be saved,

This verse must be understood in light of what Paul already said in the previous verses, or he contradicts himself. Who is the ALL that will be saved?

• 
  Rom 10:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
  4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
  5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The "all" that will be saved is the remnant, those who have not bowed down to other Gods, etc.

And Isa 47: 16: They shall be ashamed And also disgraced, all of them; They shall go in confusion together, Who are makers of idols. But Israel shall be saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; You shall not be ashamed or disgraced Forever and ever.

Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever.

God did not cast them off forever. See Paul's writing above, God reserved a faithful remnant for that time when the fulness of the Gentiles has come. If you are not trying to proof text then why can I find these answers and you cannot?

 

[Peace]

Was Jesus lying when he said: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you… God is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful... And this... if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? (Lk 6)

How would eternal torment be kind? Where is the mercy in endless pain to those lost in their sin? Wouldn’t annihilation be kinder? If God only loves the saints what credit would that be to God?

Will God bless those who curse him, or torture them? Again, hypothetically, wouldn't it be a grander finish if every knee bowed to him and he was truly proved to be all merciful?

I know you must think I am ignorant, but the reason I struggle understanding these passages and you don't, is because of my image and view of God.

Would Jesus tell us to be more merciful than God himself?

 

[Spiderrr]

quote:
Rom 11:26 … and all Israel shall be saved,


This verse must be understood in light of what Paul already said in the previous verses, or he contradicts himself. Who is the ALL that will be saved?

Rom 10:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The "all" that will be saved is the remnant, those who have not bowed down to other Gods, etc.

The guys who read write and speak Hebrew (The Jewish Encyclopedia) write that all Jewish sinners repent at the gate of hell and the fire of Gehenna "does not touch the Jewish sinners." 


The fire of Gehenna "DOES NOT TOUCH THE JEWISH SINNERS." All Jewish sinners "repent at the gates of hell."

The Jewish Encyclopedia

Gehenna

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G&search=gehenna

The loopholes are amazing from the guys who read, write and speaketh Hebrew! 



 

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 09:40 AM Spiderrr said this in Post #313

The guys who read write and speak Hebrew (The Jewish Encyclopedia) write that all Jewish sinners repent at the gate of hell and the fire of Gehenna "does not touch the Jewish sinners." 


The fire of Gehenna "DOES NOT TOUCH THE JEWISH SINNERS." All Jewish sinners "repent at the gates of hell."

The Jewish Encyclopedia

Gehenna

The loopholes are amazing from the guys who read, write and speaketh Hebrew! 

I do so love it when someone quotes one or two, out-of-context, sentences from some writing, and pretends that is the intent of the entire work. For example the above quote. It is the opinion of one (1) Talmudic Rabbi, which is NOT supported by any other passage in the JE Gehenna article. For example, see the following, also quoted from the same article. My, my where are all those loopholes now?

• 
  Judgment.
  It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous [Jewish] teacher Rabbi Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a)
  
  Sin and Merit.
  It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna ( ; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Sotah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.);[/b][/I] who always follows the advice of his wife (B. M. 59a); who instructs an unworthy pupil (Ḥul. 133b); who turns away from the Torah (B. B. 79a; comp. Yoma 72b). For further details see 'Er. 18b, 101a; Sanh. 109b; Ḳid. 81a; Ned. 39b; B. M. 19a.
  
  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G&search=gehenna

That leaves us with the question, did Jesus teach, as did pre-Christian Judaism and the two Rabbinical schools, in His time, Hillel and Shammai, that there is a place of eternal punishment/torment for the unrighteous?

• 
  Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
  
  Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
  44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
  45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
  46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
  47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
  48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 12:18 AM Peace said this in Post #312

Was Jesus lying when he said: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you… God is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful... And this... if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? (Lk 6)

How would eternal torment be kind? Where is the mercy in endless pain to those lost in their sin? Wouldn’t annihilation be kinder? If God only loves the saints what credit would that be to God?

Will God bless those who curse him, or torture them? Again, hypothetically, wouldn't it be a grander finish if every knee bowed to him and he was truly proved to be all merciful?

I know you must think I am ignorant, but the reason I struggle understanding these passages and you don't, is because of my image and view of God.

Would Jesus tell us to be more merciful than God himself?

"Again, hypothetically, wouldn't it be a grander finish if every knee bowed to him and he was truly proved to be all merciful?" A "grander finish" in whose view, yours or God's? But in this "grander finish", do you visualize Aaron and Adolph Hitler sitting together at the Master's table? Will Moses break bread with Mussolini? Will Stephen and Stalin sit together at the foot of the throne?

"the reason I struggle understanding these passages and you don't, is because of my image and view of God." Exactly, you bring your presuppositions to the text and simply do not address or respond to anything which counters those presuppositions. Instead of dealing with the passages and exegesis I post, you ignore them, and go on to other out-of-context verses. For example, the passage from Luke you cited above, also has these verses. Jesus pronounced blessings on the meek, the humble, etc, but He also pronounced woe on others. Why did not include them?

• 
  Luk 6:24 But woe/"ouai" unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
  25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
  26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
  
  3759 ouai ouai oo-ah’-ee
  a primary exclamation of grief;; interj
  AV - woe 41, alas 6; 47
  1) alas, woe

Also how does your image and view of God conform to or oppose God's vengeance, as expressed by these verses?

• 
  De 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
  
  De 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
  
  De 32:43, Judg 11:36, Ps 94:1, Ps 99:8, Ps 149:7, Pr 6:34, Isa 34:8, Isa 35:4, Isa 47:3, Isa 61:2, Isa 63:4, Jer 20:12, Jer 46:10, Jer 46:10, Jer 50:15, Jer 46:10, Jer 50:15, Jer 51:6, Jer 51:11, Jer 46:10, Jer 50:15, Jer 51:6, Jer 51:11, Jer 51:3, Jer 51:36, Eze 25:14, Eze 25:17, Mic 5:15
  
  Mic 5:15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
  
  Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
  
  Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Deut 32:35)
  
  2 Ths 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
  
  Ro 3:5, Heb 10:30, Jude 1:7

And then of course there are all the other verses I have posted which have never been addressed, i.e. Matt 25:41, Mark 9:43-48, Rom 10:3-5, Jer 13:11-14, Rev 14:11, 19:20, 20:10, 14-15, and 21:8.

 

[Peace]

do you visualize Aaron and Adolph Hitler sitting together at the Master's table? Will Moses break bread with Mussolini? Will Stephen and Stalin sit together at the foot of the throne?

I may be over-confident in God’s love and mercy, but I can visualize that. Think how grand it would be if God's will was that 'none should perish'. Maybe God can't get his own will, but if nothing is impossible with God, why not? Would it offend you?

I can think of a bigger sinner then these that got a second chance and will most certainly be in the Kingdom.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 03:22 PM Peace said this in Post #316

I may be over-confident in God’s love and mercy, but I can visualize that. Think how grand it would be if God's will was that 'none should perish'. Maybe God can't get his own will, but if nothing is impossible with God, why not? Would it offend you?

I can think of a bigger sinner then these that got a second chance and will most certainly be in the Kingdom.

I do not consider ignoring the many, many scriptures which do not support your view as "overconfidence" I observe once again that you have not responded to any of the scriptures posted but simply keep repeating your opinion over and over.

It certainly is God's will that none perish. But what did God do to Israel and Judah, the people He chose out of all the peoples on the earth and set His love on them? Did God save all of them or did He destroy them? Jeremiah 13

No, whatever God chooses to do would not offend me. What offends me are people who use selected, out-of-context, "proof texts" to deceive others, while ignoring other scriptures which do not support them. Thus giving the unwary and uninformed the false perception that they can live any way they choose in this life, they can disobey all of God's commandments, commit every conceivable evil act, even curse God, and they will all be saved in the end, no matter what.

According to these deceivers, Jesus' words in Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:43-48, are lies. After all, "Think how grand it would be if God's will was that 'none should perish'. Maybe God can't get his own will, but if nothing is impossible with God, why not?" And the thirty five plus verses which speak of God's vengeance, they are all lies too. God is not going to really, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"( 2 Ths 1:8). If God really does that, it will offend some people's idea of God.

• 
  Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
  
  Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
  44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
  45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
  46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
  47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
  48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I can think of a bigger sinner then these that got a second chance and will most certainly be in the Kingdom.

And did this sinner, repent during this lifetime or was it at the last day standing before the throne of judgement when even all the devils and demons of Satan will bow their knee and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord?

Are all these scriptures lies?

• 
  1 Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
  10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
  
  Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Peace]

OS,

You still seem to think that I deny the many scriptures that describe God mighty judgments. As you have so accurately pointed out, they are there to warn and direct all of God's creation. They certainly do exist... and I'm sure they were given for a good reason. Praise God.

My interest is not to blindly defend any given position but rather to genuinely understand the many contradictions that exist in orthodox religion and the beliefs of the ‘Total Restoration’ camp. If I don’t respond to your scriptures it is certainly not because I don’t acknowledge them. Good job. However, there is obviously more to Gods love and mercy then what we have traditionally believed. God applied the Law and Subjugation to win the hearts of men and history has proven that it didn't work...  but even this must have been by design.

I do find it curious why we will defend a belief that endless torment waits for 98% of humanity and we still call it “Good News”.

Would I acknowledge the plurality of these contradictions if I were stead fast in any one belief? The only thing I'm sure of is that religion as you have described isn't a good reflection on a God. I'm  convinced that somehow both must be true.  

You have given many good explanations that support your position but you have not explained the Agape character of God that Jesus described in Luke 6. Everyone knows and fears the damnation passages but can you explain how unconditional love and eternal torment for the infidel can co-exist? Do you even believe that God’s love is unconditional? Do you want to believe in “Unconditional Love”?

Personally I think you would be much more convincing if you would acknowledge that the mysteries of God's perfect plan may be bigger than our finite wisdom. I know it would certainly make the discuss seem less argumentative without diluting the urgency of whatever the true gospel message is.

Keep up the good work. God bless.

 

[JT]

Hell is a product of the human spirits free will. It is really just the misuse of our free will. You reap what you sow. God did not create hell, as God creates nothing imperfect -  it is an abberation of this Creation and it is not meant to be. Indeed, it will cease after the purification that we are in the midst of.

Hell exists as a form of justice. I am sure you have all heard of the saying that Justice is Love vice versa. It is just that God's love is different to what we imagine it. Not one wrong can be absolved without experiencing it yourself first. Sometimes, for the good of the person, this can be horrific.

 

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]God does not send to hell. To think God created hell suggests imperfection in God, which is impossible. Man created hell through his wrong volition - his thoughts, words and deeds. Hell is no more than reaping what you sow, although in reality hell is more terrible than words can describe. It lies in etheral matter (in near death experiences people sometimes experience the upper reaches of this), and constitutes a blind raging of souls of a like minded species. As there is no body to hold back volition, volition instantly becomes deed. Hence in the company of murderers, criminals etc, a constant infliction of suffering occurs in which only a hearfelt prayer can stop, or rather lift them up to higher levels. And even then, what you have done to somebody in the last life has to be experienced yourself in a new Earth life. Hence all wrong-doing is avenged, for want of a better word.[/font]

 

[Peace]

Indeed, it will cease after the purification that we are in the midst of...Sometimes, for the good of the person...

JT, Interesting perspective; are you saying that hell is corrective and not eternal?