• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Does hell exist?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mgairs, Dec 31, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Francie

    Francie Member

    Fine Linen, what I mean by that remark is: show respect to other kids( you don;t make fun of or put down someone about how they look dress etc)To basicly treat others the way you want to be treated . Honor and respect your parents.
  2. Francie

    Francie Member

    I have no insider information I just beleive the word of GOD, There are many verses in the Bible which speak about eternal damnation, one is Mark 3:29
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Peace...greetings again in our beloved Lord and Saviour. All aspects of our Lord's purposes are bathed in musterion. I believe we understand nothing our Lord speaks but by the unfolding of the Spirit of the One who leads us into the mystery of His will and the steps of Him that are "trackless." The Apostle Paul prays for the saints of Ephesus that the "eyes of their hearts" may be opened." If everything was simple and straight-forward we could breeze along with the Anointed Words in our hands and by simply reading would be where we need be. But alas, the words come by the anointing of the Holy Ghost, they were born/conceived/cherished in Him & expressed in/by sages and prophets and priests of the most High God. We know what is written in leather and paper and ink only as we become saturated with the identical spirit of fire that caused these wonderful words to be expressed by Divine unction.

    Brother Winchester does not stand alone. There are countless voices in this age, as there has been in every age....those who have broken through the veil of the covering that is upon every heart and mind and spirit. These one's touch the Living One, or rather, the Living One touches them by His glorious love and grace and carries each into the laminar spheres of His glory.

    The Church/Candlestick of Sardis sixty short years after the death and resurrection of the Holy One was "supposed to be alive, but in reality you are dead." And the Lord declares "Rouse yourself and keep awake, and strengthen what still remains though it is on the point of death; for I have found no doings of yours perfect in the sight of My God." The call is always come back to Me, return, stand in the blaze of My glory....for it takes little time to become dead without the be-being working of lambent glow transporting us upward and onward into His purposes.

    The word "yet" is expressed in these words to Sardis...."Yet, you have in Sardis a few who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy." The clothing of garments of fire/pur continues in those destined for the Throne! My friend, our Lord is indeed bigger and grander than we have taught or thought. With each unveiling of His Face we learn to use the three sets of wings to cover our feet, cover our faces and with the remaining set we rise before Him to sing...Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts, all the earth is full of His glory."

    Please welcome another individual who has touched the Glory of His Person.

    Hannah W. Smith

  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Francie...greetings again. The following gives each reference of our Lord to "damnation."


    In the past year I have had three different individuals declare that "hell is mentioned much more than heaven in the Scriptures." It has almost become a Scripture passage for some individuals. The fact is that Heaven is mentioned 10 times for each reference to hades/sheol/gehenna/tartarus. Our Lord indeed speaks of punishment for there are wages at the end of the day. Whatsoever you sow, that shall you also reap. But again I will ask you my sister....why do you discipline your child? What is the objective in mind? Is punishment the goal, or is correction the goal? What would it take for you to eternally punish your child with unspeakable torment, and with no possiblility of change?
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Matt. 23:14

    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

    Matt. 23:33

    Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    Mark 3:29

    But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never * * * forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


    Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

    Lu 20:47

    Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

    John 5:29

    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Rom. 3:8

    And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say *,) Let us do evil, that good may come ? whose damnation is just.

    Rom. 13:2

    Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    1Cor. 11:29

    For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

    1Tim. 5:12

    Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

    2 Pet 2:3

    And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
  6. Peace

    Peace New Member


    “All aspects of our Lord's purposes are bathed in mysterion. I believe we understand nothing our Lord speaks but by the unfolding of the Spirit of the One who leads us into the mystery of His will and the steps of Him that are "trackless."” (quote FL)

    It’s obvious by the diversity of understanding in the world (not to mention this forum) that God has cloaked most of his plans in mystery over the ages. My question is why do you think he has done this? It would seem that if every soul is subject to eternal bliss or eternal torment why would he intentionally shade his words in parables and subject the masses to arbitrary interpretations of men? If God is not a respecter of persons, how were the masses, who never had the blessing of scripture, to understand their jeopardy? It gets more puzzling when you try to understand hell and eternal damnation in light of election, predestination, and the limitation that every souls must be drawn by the will and option of God. And what about those who were blinded by God intentionally? How could these mysteries be reconciled with the words and teachings of Christ?

    Something else that is amazing to me is that I was unable to find a single reference to eternal damnation (hell) by the Apostle Paul. If hell as we have been taught is correct, why would the greatest theologian known to the Church be silent on such an important issue?

    What’s your explanation?
  7. TruthorApostasy?

    TruthorApostasy? New Member

    DRMMJR makes good solid points [ I dont know anyone here, i'm new, so i'm not siding with a person ] The words Hades,Sheol and Gehenna certainly dont insinuate in any way HELLFIRE AND TORMENT. Hades[greek] and Sheol [hebrew] mean the same thing. The grave.At Gen 37:35 the righteous man Jacob knew he was going there and that it was where his dead loved ones were. At Acts 2:30,31 It speaks of Jesus not being left in Hades-but he was there! Obviously not for torment,but just temporarily dead in the grave,before god resurrected him back to life. Gehenna was a garbage dump near Jerusalem. These things are plain facts, not really debatable as opinion. The bible is very clear on what unrepentant sinners get at Romans 5:12 and just think of what God told Adam and Eve [perfect people, with less excuse for sin ] at Genesis 2:17 was he misleading them? He didnt warn of eternal firey torment at all-just death,like Rom 5:12 says. 1 John 4:8 says that we have a God of love- not even us lowly humans would torment others forever in fire, that would require a horribly evil personality! No, the bible and God, warn of a death sentence for unrepentant sinners.The teaching of HELLFIRE comes from what is spoken of at 1 Timothy 4:1
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Peace...greetings again. You posted...

    There are 23 verses in the New Covenant that use the word hell in the K.J.V. As has been pointed out earlier, not once is the word gehenna used by any of the Apostles except James, once, where he associates the tongue with gehenna. (James 3:6) The word is used by our Lord in 11 Scriptural passages...7 in St. Matthew, 3 in St. Mark and once in St. Luke most of which are duplications by the various witnesses. What the Apostles do speak of is olethros and punishment that involves pruning and trimming of wings in restraint...."reserving the unjust for punishment"  and bringing to destruction the iniquity of the flesh. The turning of a person over to Satan for the destruction (olethros) of the flesh....final result is the "spirit being saved on the Day of the Lord." The identical word olthros is used in 1 Thess. where we read of aeonial olethros from the Presence of the Lord.

     But you are absolutely correct, the "greatest theologian known to the Church" is not only silent on this important issue; but he writes of the eternal purpose of God in the unveiling of the mystery, "the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ", and goes on to speak of "things in heaven, and things in earth" finding their one Head in the Christ." In Philippians he extends the authority and scope of the reconciliation to the heavens, the earth and the underworld. Those found bowing IN the Name of Jesus are worshipping with joy and praise, WILLINGLY! This is not mere subduing,  but rather, the full scope of reconciliation being expressed in all dimensions of our Father's realm by all beings in our Father's Realm!

    Of course there is destruction, in fact I am finding 22 words in the Hebrew some of which have our traditional meaning of destruction associated with them. However: there are a number of these Hebrew words for destruction that link perfection with the word....the breaking forth into newness of life, breakout, or causing to be brought to birth, to be consumed/exhausted/spent linked with being made complete/ made sound/ unimpaired and upright. Another Hebrew word is rooted in change and alteration, renewal and change for the better, and sprouting again. To be broken and crushed also means to breakout, and cause to bring to birth. One day we will take a little look at a few of these words as time permits.

    The ogre (wrath) of God is based in the root word oregamai. So our Father's impulse/desire means to "reach after or desire something" and also "to stretch one's self in order to touch or grasp something." This is the operation of true father, and the Father of all fathers works along this precise line as He reaches out to touch and grasp us into Himself.  He is the God of Katartizo; He mends what he has broken and rent. He repairs what has been broken and rent, and this is no patch up job, but the full resources of His glory bringing to pass His desired purpose.  

     :bow: :bow:

    Here Is Love Vast As The Ocean 

  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Peace...There are wonderful things prophesied by the sages of the Most High One. Isaiah speaks "in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast," or "a banquet of rich food and matured wine." And linked with this "wondrous feast for everyone around the world", our Lord declares He will "destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." (Isa. 25) And then we are presented with the Eater of death, the One who swallows death up in victory!

    Isa 25:7

    " And he will destroy on this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations." (R. Webster)

    {destroy: Heb. swallow up} {cast: Heb. covered}

    **** "And He will swallow up in this mountain the mask of the veil, the veil that is upon all peoples,--and the web that is woven over all the nations. Having swallowed up death victoriously...." RHM

    **** "On this mountain He will remove the mourning veil covering all peoples, and the shroud enwrapping all nations, He will destroy death forever." ( JERUS)

    **** "And on this mountain shall He strip away the mourning shroud from all mankind, the veil of sorrow from all nations, displacing death for evermore." (Moffatt)

    **** "At that time He will remove the cloud of gloom, the pall of death that hangs over the earth; He will swallow up death forever." (Taylor)

    Over all mankind hangs a veil. According to St. Paul we have been placed in this condition "not willingly", but by "reason of Him who has subjected the same...." I must tell you my friend, that this Being we worship is clothed in mystery. Fortunately we have a few wise guys that have all the answers to the 1000 Bible questions, but for FineLinen, the musterion purposes of the Glory One leave me saying "Oh Lord thou knowest."

    I know this: mankind has through one single act of deviance, in one man (the first Adam), been placed in hupotasso. We enter this world little babies with the nature of rebellion firmly entrenched within our little lives. Our Lord declares we have been placed in futility/decay/ imperfection "not willingly" or "not by any will of our own." And who has placed mankind in futility?.....The God of Glory....."by reason of Him." And what is the outcome of such subjection by "the reason of Him?" Hope.....

    "For the creature was made subject (hupotasso) to imperfection, not willingly/ not for some deliberate fault of their own , but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope"


    "The universe itself/ the whole of created life/ the creature shall be delivered/ rescued from the bondage of decay/death/mortality/tyranny of change and decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God."
    Rom. 8

    This is further elaborated in Rom. 11 where we read "that blindness/hardening/insensibility in part is happened to Israel" until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, and "then all Israel shall be saved" as "out of Zion the Deliverer" shall come and "turn away/banish/remove ungodliness from Jacob."......as  "I take away their sins."

    Yes, "the Source, Guide and Goal of all that is" has "concluded all in unbelief!" The word "concluded" encompasses consigned/ locked up/ shut up and is to one purpose hidden in the high councils of the Almighty God of Glory. .....please read with me......

    "For God hath shut up all unto disobedience"

    "For God hath consigned all men to disobedience..."

    "For God has locked up all in the prison of disobedience..."

    To what end? Why has our Lord seen fit to hupotasso all mankind into this prison house of disobedience?

    For God has consigned all men to disobedience/unbelief THAT HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON ALL/ THAT TO ALL ALIKE HE MAY SHOW MERCY."

    Let us join St. Paul with the overwhelming worship that comes from such knowledge....

    Rom. 11:33

     :bow: :bow:

    "Oh! What a fathomless depth lies in the wisdom and knowledge of God/ how inexhaustible God's resources, wisdom and knowledge are/ frankly I stand amazed at the unfathomable complexity of God's wisdom and God's knowledge/ oh what a wonderful God we have! How great are His wisdom and knowledge and riches, how unsearchable are His judgements, and His ways past finding out/ how inscrutable his judgements! How mysterious His methods/ how untraceable His ways/ how could man ever understand His reasons for action, or explain His methods of working."

     :bow: :bow:
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    If the Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, has his home in you, God, who raised Christ from the dead, will give life even to your bodies, subject to death though they are, through the power of his Spirit, who comes and makes his home within you.

    So then, brothers, our duty is not to the lower part of our human nature, nor are we bound to live as it dictates. For, if you live as the lower part of your human nature dictates, you are on the way to death. But, if by the help of the Spirit you put to death the life your animal instincts make you want to live, you will really live. Only those who are led by God's Spirit are God's sons. This Spirit you have received does not leave you in the old relationship to God of terrified slavery. No! This Spirit you have received makes you a son in the family of God, and through this Spirit we can cry to God: 'Father, dear Father!' This same Spirit joins with our spirit in the assurance that we really are children of God. If we are children of God, then we are heirs to all the promises of God. Yes, fellow-heirs with Christ, if our aim in life is to share his glory by sharing his suffering.

    In my reckoning, whatever we are called upon to suffer in this present time cannot compare with the glory which is going to burst upon us. For the whole created universe eagerly and expectantly awaits the day when God will show the world who his sons are. For the whole created universe was involved in a process of meaningless frustration, not of its own choice, but by the decree of God who did so subject it. But the situation was never hopeless, because even the created universe itself will be liberated from its servitude to death's decay, and will come to enjoy the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that up to now the whole created universe groans in all its parts, like a woman in the birthpangs. This is not only true of the created universe. We too, even although we have received in the Spirit a foretaste of what the new life will be like, groan inwardly, as we wait longingly for God to complete his adoption of us, so that we will be emancipated from sin, both body and soul. (Romans 8:11-23)

    The above was taken from a Bible translation entitled The New Testament by William Barclay. Dr. Barclay was highly respected by many leading Christian leaders as an outstanding Bible teacher and scholar. His commentary is a great work as is his New Testament Bible Translation.
  11. Peace

    Peace New Member


    Thanks for your response.

    (quote) ‘"the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ", and goes on to speak of "things in heaven, and things in earth" finding their one Head in the Christ." In Philippians he extends the authority and scope of the reconciliation to the heavens, the earth and the underworld.”

    The early Church theologian, Origen, was labeled a heretic for his belief that even Satan would be reconciled to God. What’s your opinion on Origen and his thesis?
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Greetings again Peace...Professor Schaff (historian) said this of Origen Adamantius....

    "It is impossible to deny a respectful symphathy to this extraordinary man, who, with all his brilliant talents, and a host of enthusiastic friends and admirers, was driven from his country, stripped of his sacred office, excommunicated from a part of the church, then thrown into a dungeon, loaded with chains, racked by torture, doomed to drag his aged frame and dislocated limbs in pain and poverty, and long after his death to have his memory branded, his name anathematized, and his salvation denied; but who, nevertheless, did more than all his enemies combined to advance the cause of sacred learning, to refute and convert heathens and heretics, and to make the church respected in the eyes of the world. Origen was the greatest scholar of his age, and the most learned and gracious of all the ante-Nicene fathers. Even heathens and heretics admired his brilliant talents..."

    He continues that while Origen was chained in prison, his constant theme was "I can do all things through Christ who strengthenth me" and sums up his assessment of him....

    "He has left the memory of one of the greatest theologians and greatest saints the church has ever possessed."

    Origen was indeed a believer in the restitution of all things, like Clement before him. He declared that Gehenna is an analogue of the Valley of Hinnom and means a purifying fire (Cont. Cels. VI.25) That God's fire is not material, but spiritual remorse ending in reformation, Origen teaches in many passages. (More on this theme later) He repeatedly speaks of punishment as aionion and then elaborately states and defends universal salvation beyond all aionion suffering and sin.   

    Some of Origens alleged errors were condemned,  but Universal Restoration is never named until much after his death. I hope we can look into the six theological schools of Origens time and cover more of this a little later. Have you read Dr. Edward Beecher (History Of Opinions On The Scriptural Doctrine Of Retribution)? I will see if I can find Dr. Beecher's testimony for us.

  13. Peace

    Peace New Member

    Thanks FL,

    Schaff makes Origen appear more like a martyr than a heretic.

    (quote FL)"Some of Origen’s alleged errors were condemned, but Universal Restoration is never named until much after his death."

    Do you believe that Universal Restoration was a common belief in the early church? If so, why would Origen be condemned and anathematized for his belief in UR?
  14. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    Where does Schaff supposedly say all this? Below is a link to the Origen article in the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of the Bible. I do not see any such laudatory sentiments. But I do see this statement, "In Origen Christianity blended with the paganism in which lived the desire for truth and the longing after God." Is that the early church father you want to follow


    • Origen-Catholic Encyclopedia

      (4) Universality of the Redemption and the Final Restoration

      Certain Scriptural texts, e.g., I Cor. xv, 25-28, seem to extend to all rational beings the benefit of the Redemption, and Origen allows himself to be led also by the philosophical principle which he enunciates several times, without ever proving it, that the end is always like the beginning: "We think that the goodness of God, through the mediation of Christ, will bring all creatures to one and the same end" (De princip., I, vi, 1-3). The universal restoration (apokatastasis) follows necessarily from these principles.

      On the least reflection, it will be seen that these hypotheses, starting from contrary points of view, are irreconcilable: for the theory of a final restoration is diametrically opposed to the theory of successive indefinite trials. It would be easy to find in the writings of Origen a mass of texts contradicting these principles and destroying the resulting conclusions. He affirms, for instance, that the charity of the elect in heaven does not fail; in their case "the freedom of the will will be bound so that sin will be impossible" (In Roman., V, 10). So, too, the reprobate will always be fixed in evil, less from the inability to free themselves from it, than because they wish to be evil (De princip., I, viii, 4), for malice has become natural to them, it is as a second nature in them (In Joann., xx, 19). Origen grew angry when accused of teaching the eternal salvation of the devil. But the hypotheses which he lays down here and there are none the less worthy of censure.

  15. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    I don't know what FL's response will be but mine is an emphatic NO! With the exception of Origen, who was anathematized as a heretic, I cannot find any early church father who consistently taught Universalism.

    Posted on other threads. I have also proved that the early church, including Ignatius and Polycarp, John's disciples, and Irenaeus, Ignatius' disciple, believed and taught a literal hell of everlasting punishment and torment [Here!]
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Greetings again Peace...

    Ancient Universalist Schools (Edward Beecher D.D.)

    "Two great facts stand out on the page of ecclesiastical history. One, that the first system of Christian theology was composed and issued by Origen in the year 230 after Christ, of which a fundamental and essential element was the doctrine of the universal restoration of all fallen beings to their original holiness and union with God.

    The second is, that after the lapse of a little more than three centuries, in the year 544, this doctrine was for the first time condemned and anathematized as heretical. From and after this point (A.D. 553) the doctrine of eternal punishment reigned with undisputed sway during the Middle Ages that preceded the Reformation.

    What, then, was the state of facts as to the leading theological schools of the Christian world, in the age of Origen, and some centuries after?

    Six Theological Schools

    It was in brief this: There were at least six theological schools in the church at large. Of these six schools, one, and only one, was decidedly and earnestly in favor of the doctrine of future eternal punishment. One was in favor of the annihilation of the wicked, two were in favor of the doctrine of universal restoration on the principles of Origen, and two in favor of universal restoration on the principles of Theodore of Mopsuestia.

    It is also true that the prominent defenders of the doctrine of universal restoration were decided believers in the divinity of Christ, in the Trinity, in the incarnation and atonement, and in the great Christian doctrine of regeneration; and were in piety, devotion, Christian activity, and missionary enterprise, as well as in learning and intellectual power and attainments, inferior to none in the best ages of the church, and were greatly superior to those by whom, in after ages, they were condemned and anathematized.

    From two theological schools there went forth an opposition to the doctrine of eternal punishment, which had its ground in a deeper Christian interest; inasmuch as the doctrine of a universal restoration was closely connected with the entire dogmatic systems of both of these schools, namely that of Origen (Alexandrian), and the school of Antioch."

    "Three at least of the greatest of the ancient schools of Christian theology--the schools of Alexandria, Antioch and Cæsarea--leaned on this subject to the views of Origen, not in their details, but in their general hopefulness. The fact that even these Origenistic fathers were able, with perfect honesty, to use the current phraseology, shows that such phraseology was at least capable of a different interpretation from that (now) commonly put upon it."

    The school in Northern Africa favored the doctrine of endless punishment; that in Asia Minor annihilation. The two in Alexandria and Cæsarea were Universalistic of the school of Origen; those at Antioch and Edessa were Universalistic of the school of Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore of Tarsus.

    "Decidedly the most powerful minds (300 to 400 A.D.) adopted the doctrine of universal restoration, and those who did not adopt it entered into no controversy about it with those who did. In the African school all this was reversed. From the very beginning they took strong ground in favor of the doctrine of eternal punishment, as an essential part of a great system of law of which God was the center." +++

    It should be noted, however, that the schools in Asia Minor and Northern Africa, where annihilation and endless punishment were taught, were not strictly divinity schools, but mere seminaries.

    The one school out of the six in Christendom that taught endless punishment was in Africa, and the doctrine was derived by Latins from misunderstanding a foreign language, through mis-translations of the original Greek Scriptures, and was obtained by infusing the virus of Roman secularism into the simplicity of Christianity. Maine in his "Ancient Law" attributes the difference between Eastern and Western theology to this cause. The student of primitive Christianity will see than Tertullian, Cyprian, Minucius Felix, down to Augustine, were influenced by these causes, and created the theological travesty that ruled the Christian world for dark and sorrowful centuries.

    On this point (that Origen's views were general) Neale observes:

    "In reading the works of Origen, we are not to consider his doctrines and opinions as those of one isolated doctor;--they are rather an embodiment of the doctrines handed down in the Catechetical school of Alexandria. And this school was the type, or model, according to which the mind of the Alexandrine church was cast; the philosophy of Pantænus descended to Clemens,--and from him it was caught by Origen." ++++

    Origen Misrepresented

    From these facts it is easily seen that the heresies of which Origen was accused did not touch the doctrine of universal restoration. They were for teaching inequality between the persons of the Trinity, the pre-existence of the human soul, denying the resurrection of the body, affirming that wicked angels will not suffer endless punishment, and that all souls will be absorbed into the Infinite Fountain whence they sprang, like drops falling into the sea. This latter accusation was a perversion of his teaching that God will be "all in all."

    Some of these doctrines are only found in alleged quotations in the works of his opponents, as Jerome and others who wrote against him. His language was sometimes misunderstood, and oftener ignorantly or purposely perverted. Many quotations are from works of his not in existence. Interpolations and alterations were made by his enemies in his works even during his lifetime, as he complained. Epiphanius "attacked Origen in Jerusalem after he was dead, and tried to make Bishop John denounce him. Failing here he tried to compel Jerome, through fear for his reputation for orthodoxy, to do the same, and succeeded so far as to disgrace Jerome forever for his meanness, and cowardice, and double dealing. The Theophilus, Bishop of Alexandria, came to his aid in anathematizing Origen. He called a synod A.D. 399, in which he condemned Origen and anathematized all who should read his works."

    "After this, Epiphanius died. But his followers pursued the same work in his spirit, until Origen was condemned again by Justinian;" this time for his Universalism, but, as will be seen hereafter, the church did not sustain Justinian's attack. +++++

    Dr. Pond's Misrepresentation of Origen

    The reprehensible practices to which the odium theologicum has impelled good men, is illustrated by Dr. Enoch Pond, professor in Bangor Theological Seminary. Displeased with the wonderfully candid statements of Dr. Edward Beecher, in his articles in "The Christian Union," afterwards contained in "History of the Doctrine of Future Retribution," he reviewed the articles in the same paper, and in order to convict Dr. Beecher of inaccuracy, Dr. Pond quotes from Crombie's translation of Rufinus's Latin version instead of from Crombie's rendering of the actual Greek of Origen, and this, too, when not only does Rufinus confess that he has altered the sense but in the very book (III) from which Dr. Pond quotes is Crombie's translation of the Greek, and the following note from Crombie is at the beginning of the chapter:

    "The whole of this chapter has been preserved in the original Greek, which is literally translated in corresponding portions on each page, so that the differences between Origen's own words and the amplifications and alterations of the paraphrase of Rufinus may be at once patent to the reader." It almost seems that there is a fatality attendant upon all hostile critics who deal with Origen. The injustice he received in life seems to have dogged his name in every age.

    The manner in which theological questions were settled and creeds established in those days, is shown by Athanasius. He says that when the Emperor Constantius at the council of Milan, A.D. 355, commanded the bishops to subscribe against Athanasius and they replied that there was no ecclesiastical canon to that effect, the Emperor said, "Whatever I will, let that be esteemed a canon."

    Universalism in Good Repute in the Fifth Century

    A.D. 402, when Epiphanius came for Cyprus to Constantinople with a synodical decree condemning Origen's books without excommunicating Origen, he declined Chrysostom's invitation to lodge at the Episcopal palace, as Chrysostom was a friend and advocate of Origen. He urged that clergy of the city to sign the decree, but, Socrates says, "many refused, among them Theotinus, Bishop of Scythia, who said, 'I choose not, Epiphanius, to insult the memory of one who ended his life piously long ago; not dare I be guilty of so impious an act, as that of condemning what our predecessors by no means rejected; and specially when I know of no evil doctrine contained in Origen's books.

    Those who attempt to fix a stigma on these writings are unconsciously casting a dishonor upon the sacred volume whence their principles are drawn.' Such was the reply which Theotinus, a prelate, eminent for his piety and rectitude of life, made to Epiphanius."

    In the next chapter (xiii), Socrates ** states that only worthless characters decried Origen. Among them he mentions Methodius, Eustathius, Apollinaris and Theophilus, as "four revilers," whose "censure was his commendation." Socrates was born about A.D. 380, and his book continues Eusebius's history to A.D. 445, and he records what he received from those who knew the facts. This makes it clear that while Origen's views were rejected by some, they were in good repute by the most and the best, two hundred years after his death.

    Even Augustine admits that "some, nay, very many" (nonnulli, quam plurimi), pity with human feeling, the everlasting punishment of the ******, and do not believe that it is so." *** The kind of people thus believing are described by Doederlein,

    "The more highly distinguished in Christian antiquity any one was for learning, so much the more did he cherish and defend the hope of future torments sometime ending."

    Different Opinions on Human Destiny

    Previous to A.D. 200 three different opinions were held among Christians--endless punishment, annihilation, and universal salvation; but, so far as the literature of the times shows, the subject was never one of controversy, and the last-named doctrine prevailed most, if the assertions of it in literature are any test of its acceptance by the people. For a hundred and fifty years, A.D. 250 to 400, though Origen and his heresies on many points are frequently attacked and condemned, there is scarcely a whisper on record against his Universalism. On the other hand, to be called an Origenist was a high honor, from 260 to 290. A.D. 300 on, the doctrine of endless punishment began to be more explicitly stated, notably by Arnobius and Lactantius. And thenceforward to 370, while some of the fathers taught endless punishment, and others annihilation, the doctrine of most is not stated. One fact, however, is conspicuous: though all kinds of heresy were attacked, Universalism was not considered sufficiently heretical to entitle it to censure. ****

    +++ Hist. Doct. Fut. Ret.

    ++++ Holv Eastern Church. p. 37.

    ** Socrates, the ecclesiastical historian, defends Origen from the attacks of his enemies, and finding him sound on the co-eternity of Christ with God, will not hear of any heresy in him. Eccl. Hist., b. vi, ch. xiii.

    *** Enchirid. ch. 112.

    **** According to Reuss "The doctrine of a general restoration of all rational creatures has been recommended by very many of the greatest thinkers of the ancient church and of modern times.
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter


    The Eulogists of Origen

    This chief Universalist of the centuries immediately succeeding the apostles was, by general consent, the most learned and saintly of all the Christian fathers. Historians, scholars, critics, men of all shades of thought and opinion emulate one another in exalting his name, and praising his character. This volume could be filled with their eulogiums. Says one of the most judicious historians: "If any man deserves to stand first in the catalogue of saints and martyrs, and the be annually held up as an example to Christians, this is the man, for except the apostles of Jesus Christ, and their companions, I know of no one among all those enrolled and honored as saints who excel him in virtue and holiness." 1

    A discriminating critic declares: "His work upon the text of Scripture alone would entitle Origen to undying gratitude. There has been no truly great man in the church who did not love him a little." 2

    Bunsen remarks:

    "Origen's death is the real end of free Christianity, and in particular, of free intellectual theology." 3

    The Tributes of Scholars

    The learned author of "The Martyrs and Apologists" truthfully observes: "Origen never swerved from this Christian charitableness, and he remains the model of the theologian persecuted by haughty bigotry. Gentle as Fenelon under hierarchical anathemas, he maintained his convictions without faltering, and neither retracted nor rebelled. We may well say with the candid Tillemont that although such a man might hold heretical opinions he could not be a heretic, since he was utterly free from that spirit which constitutes the guilt of heresy." 4

    Canon Westcott writes:

    "He examines with a reverence, an insight, a grandeur of feeling never surpassed, the questions of the inspiration and the interpretation of the Bible. The intellectual value of the work may best be characterized by one fact: a single sentence taken from it was quoted by Butler as containing the germ of his 'Analogy.' After sixteen hundred years we have not yet made good the positions which he marked out as belonging to the domain of Christian philosophy. His whole life was 'one unbroken prayer' to use his own language of what an ideal life should be."5

    The sober historian Lardner records only a candid appreciation of the man when he says: "He had the happiness of uniting different accomplishments, being at once the greatest preacher and the most learned and voluminous writer of the age; nor is it easy to say which is most admirable, his learning or his virtue." 6

    Canon Farrar Dean Of Canterbury

    "The greatest of all the fathers, the most apostolic man since the days of the apostles, the father who on every branch of study rendered to the church the deepest and widest services--the immortal Origen. The first writer, the profoundest thinker, the greatest educator, the most laborious critic, the most honored preacher, the holiest confessor of his age. We know no man in the whole Christian era, except St. Paul, who labored so incessantly, and rendered to the church such immearsurable services. We know of no man, except St. Paul, who had to suffer from such black and bitter ingratitude. He, the converter of the heathen, the strengthener of the martyrs, the profoundest of Christian teachers, the greatest and most learned of the interpreters of Scripture--he to whom kings and bishops and philosophers had been proud to listen--he who had refuted the ablest of all the assailants of Christianity.--He who had founded the first school of Biblical exegesis and Biblical linguistics--he who had done more for the honor and the knowledge of the Oracles of God not only than all his assailants (for that is not saying much), but than all the then bishops and writers of the church put together--he who had known the Scriptures from infancy, who had vainly tried to grasp in boyhood the crown of martyrdom, who had been the honored teacher of saints, who had been all his life long a confessor--he in the very errors of whose life was more of nobleness than in the whole lives of his assailants,--who had lived a life more apostolic, who did more and suffered more for the truth of Christ than any man after the first century of our era, and whose accurately measurable services stand all but unapproachable by all the centuries--I, for one, will never mention the name of Origen without the love, and the admiration, and the reverence due to one of the greatest and one of the best of the saints of God."

    A Catholic Eulogy

    Even modern Catholics--in spite of the ban of pope and council--join the great army of Origen's eulogists.

    Says the "Catholic World:"

    "Alexandria, the cradle of Eastern genius at that time, became the Christian Thermopylæ, and Origen the Christian Leonidas. It was he who headed the forces, and, by the splendor of his genius, prepared in his school illustrations men to lead on the van. He vindicated the truth from malicious slander, supported it by facts, disengaged it from the deceptive arguments in which enemies had obscured it, and held it up to view in all its natural beauty and attraction. Heathens were delighted with his language, full of grace and charm, and the intellectual literate of the age, who had been lost in the intricacies of Aristotle, the obscurities of Plato, and the absurdities of Epicurus, wondered at the young Christian philosopher."7

    Referring to the hard words that most advocates of universal redemption who are past middle life have received, Rev. Edward Beecher, D.D., declares, in his "History of the Doctrine of Future Retribution:"

    "An evil spirit was developed at that time in putting down Origen which has ever since poisoned the church of all denominations. It has been as a leprosy in all Christendom. Nor is this all: measures were then resorted to for the suppression of error which exerted a deadly hostility against all free investigation, from the influence of which the church universal has not yet recovered."

    The Encyclopedia Britannica, article Origen, (Prof. Adolf Harnack), voices the conclusions of the scholarly world:

    "Of all the theologians of the ancient church, with the possible exception of Augustine, Origen is the most distinguished and the most influential. He is the father of the church's science; he is the founder of a theology which was brought to perfection in the Forth and Fifth Centuries, and which still retained the stamp of his genius when in the Sixth Century it disowned its author. It was Origen who created the decree of the church and laid the foundations of the scientific criticism of the Old and New Testaments. He could not have been what he was unless two generations before him had labored at the problem of finding an intellectual expression and a philosophic basis for Christianity: (Justin, Tatian, Athenagoras, Pantænus, Clement.) But their attempts, in comparison with his, are like a schoolboy's essays beside the finished work of a master. By proclaiming the reconciliation of science with the Christian faith, of the highest culture with the Gospel, Origen did more than any other man to win the Old World to the Christian religion. But he entered into no diplomatic compromises; it was his deepest and most solemn conviction that the sacred oracles of Christendom embraced all the ideals of antiquity. His character was as transparent as his life was blameless; there are few church fathers whose biography leaves so pure an impression on the reader. The atmosphere around him was a dangerous one for a philosopher and theologian to breathe, but he kept his spiritual health unimpaired and even his sense of truth suffered less injury than was the case with most of his contemporaries. Orthodox theology has never, in any of these confessions, ventured beyond the circle which the mind of Origen first measured out."

    Fourth Century Universalists Ideal Christians

    We conclude these eulogies, which might be multiplied indefinitely, by giving the high authority of Max Muller: "Origen was as honest as a Christian as he was as a philosopher, and it was this honesty which made Christianity victorious in the Third Century, and will make it victorious again whenever it finds supporters who are determined not to sacrifice their philosophical convictions to their religious faith or their religious faith to their philosophical convictions. If we consider the time in which he lived, and study the testimony which his contemporaries bore of his character, we may well say of him, as of others who have been misjudged by posterity:

    'Denn wer den Besten seiner Zeit genug gelebt,
    Der hat genug gelebt fur alle Zeiten.'"8

    If any man since the death of Paul should rank as the patron saint of the Universalist church, it is the greatest and best of all the ancient fathers, Origen Adamantius.


    It has been asserted that Origen did not actually teach the ultimate salvation of all souls, because he insisted that the human will is eternally free, and therefore it is argued that he must have held that souls may repent and be saved, and sin and fall forever. But this is not true, for Origen taught that at some period in the future, love and holiness will be so absorbed by all souls that, though, theoretically, they will be free, they will so will that lapse will be impossible. Jerome, Justinian, Dr. Pond, and others are explicitly confuted by the great scholar and saint.

    In his comments on Romans 6:9,10, he says: "The apostle decides, by an absolute decision, that now Christ dies no more, in order that those who live together with him may be secure of the endlessness of their life. Free-will indeed remains, but the power of the cross suffices for all orders, and all ages, past and to come. And that free-will will not lead to sin, is plain, because love never faileth, and when God is loved with all the heart, and soul, and mind, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves, where is the place for sin?"

    In his great work "De Principiis," he declares: "The nature of this body of ours will be changed into the glory of the spiritual body, in which state we are to believe that it will remain always and immutably by the will of the Creator," etc. Though Origen insisted that the human will must forever be free, he did not admit that the soul could abuse its freedom by continuing forever to lapse into sin.


    1 Mosheim, Hist. Com. in Christ, before Constantine, ii, p. 149.

    2 Christ. Plat. of Alex., p. 303.

    3 Hipp. and his Age, pp. 285, 286.

    4 Bunsen, pp. 326, 327.

    5 Essays, pp. 236-252.

    6 Cred. Gos. Hist., Vol. II, p. 486.

    7 April, 1874.

    8 Theos. or Psych. Rel. Lect. XIII.
  18. Peace

    Peace New Member

    I’ve read the referenced thread that OS mentioned and some of the quotes seem very straightforward, reflecting a very dim and condemning view of Origen and the doctrine of UR. On the other hand, the quotes posted by FL prove that there was a different opinion held by others. I would doubt that either position is fabricated. This would at least prove that the concept of UR was not some new gospel and that credible men on both sides of the issue had strong arguments. Since both positions seem historic and plausible the argument will obviously not be resolved here.

    It’s obvious which doctrine has prevailed in modern religion. I think anyone would agree that doctrine of Eternal Torment for the lost is prevailing teaching in 90% religious thought today. The typical response is to default to scripture, unfortunately most theologians disagree on biblical interpretation leaving each of us to reflect and decide.

    I personally don’t think that the modern Church can be separated from the early liturgical order and our Catholic roots. Right or wrong, most denominations, and even cults, have been influenced by the early Church fathers, tradition, dogmas, and ‘sola scriptura’. It seems apparent that even fundamental evangelicals have embraced the concept of eternal damnation even if we deny the balance Catholic tenets. It can, however, be very disturbing to think that the same historic Church that embarrassed us with ‘deity equivalence’ and the religious inquisition is also the framers and custodians of spiritual truth.

    It would seem that understanding this debate would make an incredible difference in our approach to life and faith. If UR is correct, it paints God and our personal destiny in an entirely different scope then we have fundamentally taught, not to mention many more questions.

    Tradition and orthodox faith has its virtue but wisdom would say that the majority of opinion is certainly not a good basis to believe anything. Maybe the narrow way that Jesus spoke of is even more narrow than we thought?

    I personally appreciate this whole discussion and the time given from every perspective. If we are wrong about God’s will and intentions for creation we may have a lot of explaining to do. If we have been right about God’s limited atonement for mankind, maybe we need to quit our day jobs.
  19. Spiderrr

    Spiderrr New Member

    Iranaeus, the Bishop of Lyons (c.130 to 200 C.E.)

    “Wherefore also He drove him out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, ... but because He pitied him [and did not desire], that he should continue a sinner for ever, nor that the sin which surrounded him should be immortal, and evil interminable and irremediable. But He set a bound to his [state of] sin, by interposing death, and thus causing sin to cease, putting an end to it by the dissolution of the flesh, which should take place in the earth, so that man, ceasing at length to live to sin, and dying to it, might begin to live to God.”

    • Against Heretics, Book III, Chapter. 23.6

    Clement of Alexandria (c.190 C.E.).

    “How is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all? But He is the Savior of those who have believed, because of their wishing to know, and the Lord of those who have not believed, till being enabled to confess Him, they obtain the peculiar ... boon which comes by Him ... For all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe by the Lord of the universe, both generally and particularly.”

    • The Stromata, or Miscellanies, Book vii, chapter 2

    [Quoting 1 Timothy 4:10] “To speak comprehensively, all benefit appertaining to life, in its highest reason, proceeding from the Sovereign God, the Father who is over all, consummated by the Son, who also on this account ‘is Savior of all men,’ says the apostle, ‘but especially of those who believe.’”

    • The Stromata, or Miscellanies, Book vi, chapter 17

    “Christ’s only work is the salvation of mankind.”

    • The Stromata, or Miscellanies, Book ix

    Origen (c.210 C.E.)

    “When the Son is said to be subject to the Father, the perfect restoration of the whole creation is signified, so also, when the enemies are said to be subjected to the Son of God, the salvation of the conquered and the restoration of the lost is in that understood to consist.”

    • De prin. iii.5

    “But those who have been removed from their primal state of blessedness [innocence] have not been removed irrecoverably, but ... being remolded by salutary discipline and principles, they may recover themselves, and be restored to their condition of happiness.”

    • De prin. i.vi

    The witness of Victorinus (360 C.E.),

    “Christ will regenerate all things, as he created all things. By the life that is in Him, all things will be cleansed and return into age-lasting life. Christ is to subject all things to Himself. When this shall have been accomplished, God will be all things, because all things will be full of God.”

    • Adv.Arium Lib. i & iii

    Hilary, known as “the leading theologian of his day” (X.LeBachelet, St. Hilarie DTC. 6.2413–60).

    “This seemed good to God to manifest in Christ the mystery of His will, namely, that He should be merciful to all who had strayed, whether in heaven or in earth (fallen angels and mankind). Every being, then, is being restored to the place in which he was created, by learning the knowledge of Christ.”

    • In Eph. iii.9–10

    Titus, the Bishop of Bostra in 364 C.E. professed an explicit universalism in salvation. He showed that the fire of hell is really remedial.

    [ Because some came to believe the erroneous doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul—which the Bible does not support— some invented what is called “Purgatory.” There is, however, not a word in the Bible about such a transient place after death for the cleansing of errors. Yet the punishment of the wicked is intended to be corrective. The word for “punishment” in Matthew 25:46 is kolasis which in Greek literature means correction. ]

    This was understood by early Christians. Titus, Bishop of Bostra, knew that the biblical teaching of “hell” signified a place of correction and discipline, which did not last for eternity!

    “The very pit itself is a place of torments and of torments and of punishments, but is not eternal. It was made that it might be a medicine and yield help to those who sin. Sacred are the stripes which are remedies and helps to those who have strayed.”

    • Lib. i, ch.xxxii

    Gregory of Nyssa (380 C.E.) was one who proclaimed a universal redemption in Christ for all creatures within the entirety of the universe. Quoting Philippians 2:10 where Paul said every knee would one day bow and every tongue confess the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God, Gregory comments,

    “In this passage is signified, that when evil has been obliterated in the long circuits of the ages, nothing shall be left outside the limits of good; but even from them [all creatures made by God] shall be unanimously uttered the confession of the Lordship of Christ.”

    • De an.et.resurrect.

    “For it is evident that God will, in truth, be ‘in all’ then when there shall be no evil seen in anything. ... When every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body, then shall the body of Christ be subject to the Father. ... Now the body of Christ, as I have said often before, is the whole of humanity. ... When it says that God’s enemies shall be subjected to God, this is meant that the power of evil shall be taken away, and they who, on account of their disobedience were called God’s enemies, shall by subjection be made God’s friends. When, then, all who were once God’s enemies, shall have been made His footstool (because they will then receive in themselves the divine imprint), when death shall have been destroyed; in the subjection of all, which is not servile humility, but immortality and Christ is said by the apostle Paul to be made subject to God.”

    • Orat. in I Cor. xv.28

    Read carefully this extended & beautiful passage by Gregory,

    “Hence, another meaning of subjection is understood by Paul as opposite to the common one. The exposition of the term 'subjection' as used here does not mean the forceful, necessary subjection of enemies as is commonly meant; while on the other hand, salvation is clearly interpreted by subjection. ... Paul mentions this in his Epistle to the Romans: ‘For if we have been enemies, we have been reconciled to God’ [Rom 5.10]. Here Paul calls subjection reconciliation, one term indicating salvation by another word. For as salvation is brought near to us by subjection, Paul says in another place, ‘Being reconciled, we shall be saved in this life’ [Rom 5.10]. Therefore, Paul says that such enemies are to be subjected to God and the Father; death no longer is to have authority. This is shown by Paul saying, ‘Death will be destroyed,’ a clear statement that the power of evil will be utterly removed: persons are called enemies of God by disobedience, while those who have become the Lord's friends are persuaded by Paul saying, ‘We are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: Be reconciled to God’ [2Cor 6.20]. ...

    When all enemies have become God's footstool, they [the enemies] will receive a trace of divinity in themselves. Once death has been destroyed — for if there are no persons who will die, not even death would exist — then we will be subjected to him; but this is not understood by some sort of servile humility. Our subjection, however, consists of a kingdom, incorruptibility and blessedness living in us; this is Paul's meaning of being subjected to God. Christ perfects his good in us by himself, and effects in us what is pleasing to him. According to our limited understanding of Paul's great wisdom which we received, we have only understood part of it.

    • Orat. in I Cor. xv.28

    Diodorus of Tarsus.

    He was equally assured the Scripture taught the universal reconciliation of all to Christ—and that it would be accomplished through the power of Jesus Christ.

    “For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetual, but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness without end awaits them. The resurrection, therefore, is to be regarded as a blessing not only to the good but also to the evil.”

    • De aecon.

    Theodore of Mopsuestia (a contemporary of Diodorus),

    He was the leader of the Christian university of Antioch. He was called by those who knew him as “the Master of the East because of his theological eminence.” His remarks are very pertinent.

    “That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said ‘Until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing,’ unless it were possible for us to be cleansed when we have paid our debts. ... Who is so great a fool as to think that so great a blessing [eternal life in Christ] can be to those who let arise [in their hearts] the occasion of endless torment.”

    • Frag. iv

    In other words, endless torment was to Theodore incompatible with the Gospel.

    Jerome (c.400 C.E.).

    Jerome was a translator of the Hebrew and Greek testaments into the common Latin of the time. He was fully aware of all the original words involving a so-called “eternal” damnation that some translators today render as endless and unrelenting torments, but Jerome taught the redemption of all!

    “Christ will, in the ages to come, show not to one, but to the whole number of rational creatures His glory, and the riches of His grace, by means of us [Christians]. The saints are to reign over the fallen angels, and the prince of this world, even to them will be brought blessing.”

    • In Eph. ii.7

    “In the restitution of all things, when the true physician, Jesus Christ, shall have come to heal the body of the Church, every one shall receive his proper place. What I mean is, the fallen angel will begin to be that [of his original state] which he was created, and man (who was expelled from Paradise) will be once more restored to the tilling of Paradise. These things then will take place universally.”
    • In Eph. iv. 16

    Jerome’s comment on Galatians 5:20,

    “With God no rational creature perishes eternally. ... For God pities His creatures, and will not suffer those whom He himself has formed to perish eternally, who are sustained by His breath and spirit.”

    • In Isa. lvii.6
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    No historical evidence! No historical evidence! No historical evidence! No historical evidence!
    Nothing to boast about. where was it in the preceding centuries? It was NOT taught by the disciples of John or Paul!
    "most and best" is a gross exaggeration. He only mentions five names, Theotinus, Methodius, Eustathius, Apollinaris and Theophilus, and none of the "best" such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Irenaeus, etc. I know it says 500 years after his death, which is irelevant. What did the early church teach?
    This says "people" NOT scholars or church leaders. Quote is truncated probably out-of-context.
    A blatantly false statement NOT supported by the evidence presented!
    The opinions of modern heretics are irrelevant!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.