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Does hell exist?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mgairs, Dec 31, 2002.

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  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Spiderrr....this is indeed a remarkable document. Fortunately I gave up taking the advice of Mrs. Linen many moons ago. These "guys" that read and write and speak Hebrew must be right!


    You will note the following....

    1. Our Lord before He made man created heaven and hell and declared it is very good. "The words "very good" in Gen. 1:31 refer to hell. Take your choice when this glorious event occurred: the sixth  day, the second day or before the world. Of course opinions on this vary.

    2. The fiery furnace  of Mek. xx.18b and 71b and Enoch xcviii.c and ciii.8 is identified as the gate of Gehenna. Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent and nature of hell.

    3. Gehenna extends indefinitely (Men.99.b) and according to one opinion is "above the firmament" and according to another "behind the dark mountains." (Ta'an 32.b)

    4. Gehenna is "situated deep down in the earth" and is immeasureably large. The whole world is "like a lid for Gehenna" and "the earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden (Paradise)..."Eden one sixtieth of Gehenna." Some say Gehenna cannot be measured (Pes. 94a)

    5. Gehenna is divided into seven compartments...."A similar view was held by the Babylonians.  (Ancient Iraq)

    6. Because of the extent of Gehenna, the sun on setting in the evening passes by it, and receives its own fire or evening glow from it.

    7. The Persians (ancient Iran/ the Peacock Throne) believed that "glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners" 

    8. The "warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna." (Shab. 39.a)

    9. The fire of Gehenna never goes out. "There is always plenty of wood there." (Men. 100a)

    10. The fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire. (Ber. 6.7)

    11. The Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. Do a word study on Brimstone some day Spiderr...Brimstone is the Breath of Jehovah)

    12. "It is said God judges by means of fire." Declared most definitely from the Ancient Words!

    13.  "Gehenna is dark in spite of immense masses of fire." "It is like night."

    14. "It is assumed there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna."

    15. "It is assumed in general sinners go to hell immediately after their death." Except the sinners of Zion, of course, who repent at the gates of hell.

    16. The pious go to paradise, and sinners go to hell (B.M.83.b) Except the sinners of Zion, of course, who repent at the gates of hell.

    17. "Every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise." At death "the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners." This does not apply to Jewish sinners in Zion, they repent at the gates of hell."

    18. It would be better if sinners had not been born. "It would be better for the latter (sinners) if they had not lived at all." (Yeb. 63.b) Amen and amen!"

    19. Those who would have been better off if they had never lived at all will be happy to know their miserable existence in this present evil world will be enhanced by the God who receives their words..."Lord of the world, thou has done well; paradise for the pious, gehenna for the wicked." ('Er. 19.a) Jewish sinners are exempt, the sinners in Zion repent at the gates of hell.

    20. There are three catagories of men; 1.the wholly pious 2. the arch-sinners, not purified  3. those between these two classes. The depths of Gehenna are in levels commensurate with the sinfulness of the sinner being admitted. 

    21. Number 20 is similarily expressed by the heathen of Babylon. "A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna."  Note: The doctrine of hell is not of heathen origin! 

    22. "After 12 months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious."

    23. Regarding heretics: "hell shall pass away" BUT "they shall not pass away."

    24. "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men."....1. those who have committed adultery 2. or shamed their neighbors 3. or vilified them. 

    25. The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come to hell.

    26. Abraham takes the d a m n e d to his bosom. "the fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God." (Er.19a)  

    27. Heretics and Roman oppressors go to Gehenna. "the same fate awaits the Persians." (Note:Iran/ The Peacock Throne)

    28. It is chiefly the heathen who are cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment. The Lord, the Almighty, will punish the heathen on the Day of Judgment by "putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity." (Judith xvi.17)

    29. God puts souls back into dead bodies on the Day of Judgment.

    30. Sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect.

    31. "There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners." Note: Remember #19

    32. "It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna." ( Unchastity/ adultery/ pride/ mockery/ hypocrisy/ anger etc.)

    33. "Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech."

    34. Hell awaits one who "always follows the advice of his wife."

    35. Hell awaits those "who instruct an unworthy pupil." Note: "Never try and teach a pig to sing, you will waste your time and annoy the pig."

    36. "Hell awaits those who turn away from the Torah."Does that include the Jewish sinners who repent at the gates of hell? For further details see...'Er.18, 101a etc.

    37. There are merits that preserve a man from going to hell.


    Philanthropy/ fasting/ visiting the sick/ reading the Shema' and Hallel/ eating the three meals on the Sabbath Note: Saturday

    Israelites in general are less endangered than heretics, or the heathen.

    "Scholars, the poor, and the pious are especially protected."

    38. "Three Classes of Men do not see the face of hell:"

    1. Those who live in penury. Make that extreme poverty and want.

    2. Those suffering from intestinal catarrh. Please do not make me define it!

    3. Those that are pressed by their creditors.

    39. "It would seem that the expressions 'doomed to hell' and 'to be saved from hell' must be interpreted hyperbolically." Make that mile high ice-cream cones.   

  2. JT

    JT Regular Member


    Once the soul has matured through its own suffering and recognised the evil for what it is, a genuine prayer will lift it out of the dark regions into slightly lighter ones. It is not eternal - this I think was used by the churches to control and has no logic. If God is perfection, then would He want a spirit to suffer pain for eternity? To think such a thought I feel doubts God's perfection.

    Look at the robber on the cross next to Christ. He was absolved and allowed to return home to the spiritual sphere only because of his recognition that he had sinned and deserved to suffer because of it. There was no arbitary action on behalf of Christ here, as this is out of the question with Divinity.

    Hell, I don't know if I would use the word corrective - you simply reap what you sow. If you are a murderer you will find yourself with other murderers - much as you can witness on earth. The irony is hell is probably worse than anyone can imagine, as there is no body to hold back volition - hence in the company of murderers and tyrants it would be the equivalent of constant pain, as real as on earth, since such souls with all their anger and bitterness will only lash out at eachother as they do on Earth.

    Hence the importance of striving to be pure in thought, word and deed while we pass through our brief earth lives.
  3. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    Which you exhibit by posting and referencing ONLY the verses which support the Universalist postion.
    Do you also find it curious that Jesus Himself warned of endless torment many times?
    Is this a good reflection on the One and Only God, not a God.

    • Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

      Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
      44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
      45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
      46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
      47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
      48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Oh, but I did acknowledge the "blessed are" passages which you emphasized while ignoring the "Woe" passages. You want to see how "unconditional love and eternal torment for the infidel can co-exist?" The best way is to read your Bible systematically. But here it is in a nutshell.

    • John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
      17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
      18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
      19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    I believe that is crystal clear and Jesus said it. There is a condition, "belief" or faith.
    Doesn't that depend on how you define "unconditional?" I definitely believe that God's love is offered unconditionally, exactly as Jesus said. There is nothing mankind can do, no amount of strictly following commandments, doing good works, etc, to earn that love. But it is conditional in the sense that mankind must accept God's unconditionally offered love, before the judgement.

    I recently read where a $1.5 milllion lottery jackpot, went unclaimed. Whoever held the winning ticket failed to come in and claim the money by the final date. They would have been a millionare but they did not claim or accept the money by the appointed time. All the "If onlys" in the world will not put that money in their pocket. It is too late.

    Or here is another more personal. Several years ago I was serving in the military. I was offered a promotion which entailed a very good sized pay raise. BUT I refused the promotion because it would have meant going back to work in a career field that I detested. I did NOT accept what was offered, therefore I did not get the promotion or raise or any of the benefits.
    And would not your own arguments be much more convincing if you did the same? Also I think if you read some of my posts on other threads, you will find that is exactly what I believe and say. I think it would be impractical to post a lengthy systematic theology with every point I discuss.
  4. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    And once again you demsonstrate a lack of integrity by reposting SPAM filled with deliberately twisted and corrupted comments. Your belief system is evidently so totally bankrupt you must resort to falsehood and exaggeration. And you totally ignored my post on this subject.
  5. Peace

    Peace New Member


    I can appreciate the need to accept what God did for us in order to experience the fullness of life and salvation, but it would seem that God's restoration work of the cross is not up for debate.

    As I read some of Paul's writings it would appear that he didn't think acceptance or belief could void the finish work of the cross.

    Look what he said in Rom 3:3:
    For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not...

    Are we required to accept all gifts for them to remain gifts? What about your gift of life from your mother, were you consulted? Did anyone ask if you accept or not? Not all gifts need to be accepted to remain gifts. My love for my children will not fade, nor will I torment them, if they reject my gift of love to them. However, if they embrace my free gift it will be all the better. (And if we, being evil, know how to love our children, how much more our heavenly Father?)

    Does it make sense that God's gift of restoration would disappear if we don't believe? I think salvation may have more to do with experiencing a regenerated life then our traditional view of hell.

    I can see how accepting God's gift today would bring aionios life but how could rejecting it negate the power of the cross to restore all humanity? How could our will to refuse be greater than his will to save?

    How do you read Rom 3:3?
  6. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    Old Shepherd, none of those examples work on God though.  You see, God can choose to do whatever He wants.  We know that He wants everyone to be saved, why would he ever put an expiration date on the offer of salvation?

    I don't think there is any tenable way to say that he would.  That is why C.S. Lewis came up with the idea that the gates of Hell are "locked from the inside".  That is, the people in Hell refuse to accept salvation themselves (forever).  However, this state of affairs seems extremely unlikely to me as well.  The only way that they could willfully reject God forever is if they are in ignorance of God's desire to help them.  But God, given infinite resources and infinite time, could not possibly fail to convince them, eventually, that it is in their best interest to unbar the door and accept salvation.

    So what you have here is a dilemma.  Tell me which one of the two you believe, and explain to me how you get around the problem.  Does God end the offer of salvation, or do sinners end it themselves?  If you don't know and cannot pick, then you must take one or both of them on since I do not see how either situation is tenable (yet one of them is necessary for the doctrine of eternal torment to be true).

    Or you could just ignore me :)
  7. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    Those examples most certainly do apply to God, because He, not you or others with false unorthodox beliefs, made the rules, in the many scriptures I have already posted..
    Hmmm, you don't think and C.S. Lewis came up with an idea. I prefer the word of God not the thoughts and ideas of men which contradict that word.
    No dilemma whatsoever. I believe the Bible ALL the Bible not just a few proof texts and a bunch of false interpretations and translations of Biblical languages by people with no qualifications

    • Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
      10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

      Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not not inherit the kingdom of God.
    What part of shall not is unclear?
  8. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    Wow.  Way to ignore the question.  And I'm sorry that you believe your English translation of scripture is the word of God.  My translations say that Jesus is the Word of God, and that the scriptures contains (at least) some words from God... whether or not the entire scripture is also the word of God, I haven't decided yet.


    My question stands.  Does God lock people in Hell or do they lock themselves there?  Can you reconcile either position with truths (that we can agree on) which are presented in the Bible?

    If God desires that all be saved, why does salvation expire at a certain time?  If it doesn't expire, then why does people's ability to accept it expire?  Does God not have the ability to affect this situation (we know that He would like to)?

    Now to address your rebuttal.

    So you've placed your faith in other men's interpretation of the Biblical text.  Rather than say... God?

    What I've presented to you is a CONTRADICTION within the Bible (as you read it) so it IS a dilemma.  The Bible says that God loves everyone and desires that all be saved, yet according to you, not everyone will be.  This poses a problem as I've shown above.

    Guess what, every person who makes it to heaven (in both our theologies) was once a sinner that could have been described by one or more of those terms (or another like them).  Does that mean no one will get to Heaven?  Or does it simply mean that people must be changed before they are allowed in?
  9. Peace

    Peace New Member

    Rize, I appreciate the links on UR. They will give me many hours of reading.
  10. Spiderrr

    Spiderrr New Member

    F.L., this is incredible information. Number 1 says that before God created man, and at the latest, the sixth day, the Sovereign God created hell and pronounced it was very good. According to Romans 8, mankind was placed in futility NOT WILLINGLY but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope. Romans 5 says that we have our origins in the first adam and because of his disobedience we are made sinners. And so the Lord brings billions and billions of spirits into this world to destroy (eternally torment) those who are not bright enough to avail themselves of His forgiveness? Oh please! Have you read the James Dobson Nighmare by Martin Zender yet?

  11. Spiderrr

    Spiderrr New Member

    God offers helpless sinners a general invitation to accept His Son?

    Helpless (help'lis), adj.

    1.Unable to help oneself; weak or dependent. 2. Deprived of strength or power; powerless; incapacitated.

    According to many theologians, God offers helpless sinners a general invitation to accept His Son. Did you catch the contradiction in asking helpless people to do something? Great. Then you're already far ahead of trained professionals.

    Keep moving.

    Romans 3:11 says that, "Not one is seeking out God." Is this anyone's fault? No.

    Romans 11:32 says, "God locks up all together in stubbornness." We are all born stubborn, and apart from divine intervention, we stay that way.

    Some may be upset by the previous paragraph, wondering why God would purposely make all humankind stubborn. It will greatly help to know this: It's also God's intention to have mercy on the same all He locks up in stubbornness (this is the second half of Romans 11:32). Anybody can rescue someone halfway in a boat. God actually rescues those who fight Him all the way.

    In Acts, chapter nine, an extremely stubborn and helpless (to save himself) person named Saul of Tarsus is en route to Damascus to arrest and kill Christians. Here is a perfect field for a demonstration of amazing grace; don't think God hasn't thought of it. Before he could even say, "Praise the Lord," Saul was on the ground beholding Christ's glory. This was not a "general invitation" to fall off a horse. Saul (Paul) wrote later: "The grace of our Lord overwhelms" (1 Tim. 1:14).

    "Overwhelms" reminds me of Niagara Falls, and causes me to now wonder: Does a person walking out from under Niagara Falls need to "make a decision" whether or not to get wet?

    Paul became the rule for salvation, not the exception. He told Timothy he was "a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him" (1 Tim. 1:16). This doesn't mean that everyone gets pitched off a pony. But the principle is the same: Salvation operates in spite of us, not because of us.

    Some think we need to get unhelpless long enough to call on God. Nonsense. Remember? "Not one is seeking out God." We are so helpless that God has to give us the very faith we need to seek Him (Romans 12:3). Don't I believe in the free will of man? No. I believe in the free will of God.

    Here is what the so-called "general invitation" doctrine is saying: God pulls into your driveway and, finding your house burning down, honks the horn a couple times. Being a hands off God, He then closes His eyes, plugs His ears and starts humming loudly to Himself so He won't be tempted to influence your decision to either get into or not get into His car. From this point on, it's entirely up to your strength and your wisdom to open the door and get in.

    Never mind that you're upstairs lying unconscious on the floor (see "helpless," Rom. 5:6). And you better hurry, too, because this buggy's moving on. Once God pulls out of the driveway, your chance to get in the car is over. (As if God leaves Christ's work on Calvary to chance!)
    The really crazy part about this "general invitation" business is that those who believe it call it "salvation by grace." Hmm. Sounds to me more like "salvation by being strong enough and smart enough to get into God's car while God is closing His eyes, plugging His ears and humming to Himself."

    Romans 5:6, layman's terms This is salvation by grace: God pulls into your driveway and, finding you nowhere in sight and your house burning down, lays His own neck on the line and runs up the stairway, through the flames and into your bedroom. Finding you unconscious on the floor in your underwear, He picks you up, carries you out of the house, down the sidewalk and out to His car. At the car, He cradles your limp frame in His left arm while opening the door with His right hand. Then He straps you into the front seat next to Him, slams the door and starts off to glory. Once you come to, He does let you say "I believe! I believe! I confess Your name!" Due to His gracious nature, He also lets you check the rear-view mirror for Him occasionally, run the power windows up and down and fool with the radio. This is called being a "fellow worker with God" (1 Cor. 3:5-9).

    Helpless people being saved? The logical conclusion is this: Personal belief and confession are reactions to salvation, not causes of it. We believe because we are saved, we are not saved because we believe.

    ALL things © copyright 2001-2003 by Martin Zender. All rights reserved

    What Do You Mean...Man Is A Free Moral Agent!

    [Edited unauthorized link.]
  12. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    You're welcome, Peace.  And I think if you truly explore the second link, you'll find many days or weeks of reading :) 

    Also, when you go to the second link, you may notice that most (all?) of the material is hosted by [Deleted unauthorized link]
  13. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    Oh excuse me did I say English translation somewhere? Maybe you can remind me where I said that.

    I do NOT rely on any translation. I read both Biblical languages. I first learned to speak Greek in Germany the year of Sputnik I. And I studied both languages at the grad. level about 20 years later.

    • o alhqhV paroimia kuon epistrefw epi idioV ecerama
    Did you read my last two posts? It would really be helpful if you would actually read what I post, then respond to it. Perhaps you can read those posts and try to explain to me how I misinterpret those scriputeres, especially the ones in red.
    See the two previous posts. And a little bit of church history say 33 AD to 300 AD.[/i]
    See above answer. Also,

    • paV grafhn qeopneustoV kai ofqelimoV proV didaskalia proV elegmoV proV epanorqesiV proV paidhia en dikaiosunai
    No it does NOT pose a problem, it does NOT pose a dilemma. It is an example of "proof texting" and "eisegesis" What I see thus far is no one representing the Universalist side has demonstrated any sort of systematic theology. "How about this verse and how about that other verse, etc. I have READ the BIBLE not just a few isolated, misinterpreted proof texts. All you are doing is repeating your same assertion without offering any type of proof or evidence. Have you even bothered to read my posts, the scriptures I cited?

    • en atomw en rith ofqalmou en esxath salpiggi salpisei gar kai oi nekroi egerqhso afqartoi kai hmeis allaghsomeqa

    And OBTW links to Universalist sites are NOT permitted in posts or your signature.
  14. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    Why are those links not allowed?  The theology in my links conforms to the Nicene creed which is the standard that determines what a Christian is according to this site.  So it's not non-Christian material.  Show me in the rules where it says that I cannot have them there, and I will remove them (no other mod has had a problem with them before this).

    And as for English translations, even your own personal translation is prone to error, though potentially much less error than popular translations.  Our understanding of our own langauge isn't always perfect, much less our understanding of an ancient language.

    And you still have not addressed my dilemma in the last few posts.  Though I admit that I haven't read this entire thread, so perhaps I shouldn't bother continuing.

    And I fail to see how church history has anything to do with:

    "If God desires that all be saved, why does salvation expire at a certain time?  If it doesn't expire, then why does people's ability to accept it expire?  Does God not have the ability to affect this situation (we know that He would like to)?"

    And did you mean your last two posts?  Didn't see anything relevant in those either.

    I'm currently in the process of reading the New Testament with universalism in mind and have found any problems yet (I'm in John, but I skipped Luke so that I could read it and Acts in succession).
  15. Pistos Ergon

    Pistos Ergon Guest

    ADMISSION - I haven't read but the first 1/3 of the thread.

    About literal fire and the coming lake of fire:

    Was Sodom & Gomorrha destroyed with literal fire?

    What saith the Lord?

    "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7

    "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" 2 Peter 2:6 
  16. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    Things in the natural don't always correspond directly to things in the spiritual.  I can point you to about a million OT examples that have spiritual parallels in the NT.

    In any case, are you aware that the OT says that the fortunes of Sodom and Gomorrah are to be restored (talking about the people not real estate; Ezekial 16:53)?  And in the Gospels, Jesust says that if he had done the works he did in Capernaum in those places, they would have repented?  That's not very fair if they will eventually be lost to eternal torment.

    And I looked at the rules again, I don't see anything that prohibits links to Christians sites that follow the Nicene creed (which says nothing about the damnation of the lost).
  17. Revelationz

    Revelationz New Member

    Could you please clarify what are the rules of the forums regarding an "unauthorized link"?  What in the article, What do you mean..man is a free moral agent, by Preston Eby violated the rules of a Christian forum?
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Greetings again Spiderrr, builder of webs. After reading what the guys who speak and read and write Hebrew said, you posted....

    I have been greatly blessed to read what the Jewish Encyclopedia has presented as their definition of Gehenna. The elaborate preparation the Lofty One has made for the vast, vast expanse of those He has placed/ hupotasso (ed) in disobedience, is enlightening indeed. Yes, these "guys" behold the Sovereign God creating hell on the sixth day of creation at the latest, and possibly prior to creation itself. I assume in His foreknowledge He knew the limitations that were built into His work of art! What a Sovereign Planner these dear guys hold in their darkened hearts and minds still covered with a veil of covering. Let's take a look for a moment at one aspect of this mile-high ice cream cone theology of the guys from the Jewish Encyclopedia. For a start this is what our Lord declares in Romans 8. 

    Romans 8:20,21

    "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.


    The creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

    "The creature was made subject"

    Subject= Hupotasso=

    To arrange under/ to subordinate.

    To subject/ put in subjection.

    To subject one's self/ obey.

    To submit to one's control.

    To yield to one's admonition or advice.

    To obey/ be subject.


    "Subject to vanity"

    Vanity= Mataiotes=

    What is devoid of truth/ appropriateness.

    Perverseness/ depravity.

    Fraility/ want of vigour. 


    "Not willingly"

    Willingly= Heknon=

    Unforced/ voluntary/ willing.

    Of one's own will.

    Of one's own accord.


    "But by reason of Him"= Dia=


    "By reason of Him who subjected"

    Subjected= Hupotasso=

    To arrange under/ to subordinate.

    To subject/ put in subjection.

    To subject one's self/ to obey.

    To subject to one's control.

    To yield to one's admonition and advice.

    To obey/ be subject. 


    "Subjected the same in hope"

    Hope= Elpis=

    Expectation of evil/ fear.

    Expectation of good/ hope.

    Joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation.

    On hope/ in hope/ having hope in the Authro of hope or He who is the foundation of hope.

    The thing hoped for.



    "The creature itself also shall be delivered"

    Delivered= Eleutheroo=

    To make free.

    To set at liberty from the dominion of sin. 


    "Delivered from the bondage of corruption"

    Bondage= Douleia=



    The condition of a slave.


    "The bondage of corruption"

    Corruption= Phthora=

    Corruption/ destruction/ perishing.

    That which is perishable.

    Corruption (moral decay)

    In the Christian sense eternal misery in hell. 


    "From the bondage of corruption into the glorious"

    Glorious= Doxa=

    Opinion/ judgment/ view.

    Opinion/estimate whether good or bad concerning someone.

    A. In the N.T. always a good opinion concerning one resulting in praise and honor and glory.

    Splendour/ brightness.

    Magnificence/ excellence/ preeminence/ dignity/ grace.


    A thing belonging to God. The kingly majesty which belongs to Him as the Supreme Ruler.

    The Kingly majesty of the Messiah/ the absolute perfect inward or personal excellencey of Christ Jesus.

    Most glorious condition/ exalted state.

    Glorious condition of blessedness.


    "Glorious liberty"

    Liberty= Eleutheria=

    Liberty to do or to omit things having no relationship to salvation.

    Fancied liberty (A liberty to do as one pleases.)

    True liberty: Living as we should, not as we please.


    "Of the glorious liberty of the children of God." 
  19. patrick

    patrick New Member

    Let us consider for a moment the condition of the sinner before someone is saved. I have heard many preachers declare that salvation is like a bowl of fruit that is set before all men to partake of it. Those who choose to pick up an apple, or pear enjoy the benefit of salvation. Those who don't partake of what has been freely given for all to enjoy will burn in Hell forever. When salvation is presented in this light, it clearly depends upon a person choosing whether they may enjoy salvation or not. It assumes that the person is in their right mind, and is capable of choosing salvation for himself or herself. Let us consider though the real condition of all of mankind. 1. We all love darkness more than light. (John 3:19)
    We all hate the light because are deeds are evil. (John 3:20)
    We cannot comprehend (lay hold of) the light. John 1:5
    4. We have all turned aside, and have all together become filthy Psalms 4:31
    5. We are blind Psalms 146:8; Zephaniah 1:17; Matthew 15:14; John 9:39-41; II Corinthians 4:3,4.
    6. We are deaf Psalms 66:18; Matthew 11:15; Matthew 13-17; Romans 11:8; 1 Corinthians 2 -14.
    7. The things of God are foolishness to us. 1 Corinthians 2:14
    8. The spirit of man can only understand the things of man. Without the Spirit of God it is impossible to understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Corinthians 2:11-14
    9. We are slaves to another--sin is our taskmaster 1 Corinthians 6:19,20; Romans 8:15; Romans 6:11-17.
    10. We call good evil, and evil good Isaiah 5:20
    11. We are unclean --either because of playing in the tombs, or because we have leprosy (spiritually speaking). Leviticus 11:31-40, Numbers 19:11-20, Haggai 2:13-14. Matthew 23:27,28.
    12. We are not in our right minds due to the continual torment that fear has imparted. 1 John 4:18; 2 Timothy 1.
    13. We are deceived because we are not doing the word of God, James 1:22-25.
    14. We seek our own interests not the Lord's; Philippians 2:21.
    15. We are spiritually dead; Romans 7:8-20; Ephesians 2:1-3.
    16. We are subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of Him (God) who subjected us to it: Roman 8:18-22; Genesis 5:29; Job 12:6-10.
    17. Because we cannot hear, we do not have faith: Romans 10:17.
    18. Without faith it is impossible for us to please God: He 11:6; Ps 78:17-39.
    19. We were made to lack by Elohim (Psa 8:5, literal translation of little lower than the angels).
    20. We are all liars. Romans 3:4
    21. "Not one is just" (Rom.3:11)
    "Not one is understanding" (Rom.3:11)
    "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom.3:11)
    "All avoid Him" (Rom.3:12)
    25. Can't discern our left hand from our right. Jonah 4:11 No matter how nice we make salvation appear to the unsaved, they are incapable of reaching out to take it. If we can perceive it, there really is nothing appealing about it in the least. In fact, from the viewpoint of the sinner, we are trying to make them eat a plate full of garbage that has been allowed to putrefy for years before being served. Needless to say, we have not even considered the fact that we do not have permission from our master, sin, to even reach out and take the fruit. We are not even our own, even though we believe we are. We are slaves to the "god of this world (-- Revised Standard Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?)." We need to be made whole (saved) just so that we can make a proper decision. We need to be purchased by another before we can get permission to take a hold of salvation (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). "He who the Son sets free is free, indeed." Let us look specifically at number 3 for a moment. John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. The fallen man is in darkness, and cannot comprehend the light that is shining. Comprehend in the dictionary means: to understand the meaning of something. In the Strong's dictionary of the Greek the word is: Strong's Ref. # 2638 katalambano
    From GSN2596 and GSN2983; to take eagerly, i.e. seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively):
    Translated in the KJV as--apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain,
    perceive, (over-) take. We in our fallen nature cannot understand light, nor can we perceive it, or obtain it. We simply cannot apprehend the things of the Spirit at all. So if all of this is true how can we take hold of an understanding that the Scriptures clearly declare is impossible for us to obtain? Unless God intervenes in that man's life and allows that man to be apprehended by the anointing (Christ), that man will never come to the Lord. Without God's intervention in our lives it is impossible to be saved (made whole). We have to be apprehended first before we can apprehend anything that the Lord wants us to walk in Philippians 3:8-17 Paul said "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may APPREHEND THAT FOR WHICH I AM APPREHENDED OF CHRIST JESUS. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, and let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." When the words apprehend and apprehended are used in Philippians' 3:8-17 they are the same word katalambano that is translated as the word comprehend in John 1:5. Clearly we in our fallen state of darkness cannot apprehend Him, but He does, and has apprehended us for His will. John 12: 32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33. This he said, signifying what death he should die. The word draw in the Strong's is: Strong's reference # 1670 helkuo or helko {hel'-ko}; probably akin to GSN0138; to drag (literally or figuratively): To Draw =Drag in the Greek. Used Eight times in the scriptures: Joh 6:44; John 12:32; John 18:10; Joh 21:6; Joh 21:11; Ac 16:19; Ac 21:30; Ja 2:6. All will look at Him who was lifted upon the cross and all that look will be made whole just like all who looked at the serpent that was raised in the wilderness were healed from the serpents deadly bite (Nu 21:4-9; Joh 3:12-20). You can argue all you want but the fallen character of men and women is clearly spelled out in the Bible. We cannot choose to partake of the grace of salvation unless the Lord first chooses us for it. "You have not chosen me but I have chosen you (Joh 15:16)." But how do we come unto Christ? (By this method, and for this reason )"That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1Cor 1:29-31) If one truly gets to choose him then one has the opportunity to glory in the flesh, that is, in one's ability. As we read no flesh will get to glory in His presence!!! Please consider that it is God who:

    -is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb. 12:2).
    -calls us through His grace. (Gal. 1:15).
    -draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65; 12:32; 14:16; 15:16).
    -creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).
    -His arm brings salvation. (Psalm 98:1,2; (Isa. 51:5,6; Isa. 59:1)
    -appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).
    -works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
    -chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).
    -chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).
    -grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).
    -grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
    -calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).
    -causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).
    -predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).
    -predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).
    -predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
    -makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).
    (The list was prepared by Gary Amirault) Is it not amazing what God has called impossible: man has declared that it is possible for his free will to take hold of the Spirit of life. Even more amazing what God calls possible: man declares that it is impossible for God to save all men. Matthew 19: 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. Genesis 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. Numbers 11:23 And the Lord said unto Moses, Is the Lord's hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not. Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded, that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 2 Peter 3 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Habakkuk 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. John 1 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men
    unto justification of life.
    Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. continued in part two
  20. patrick

    patrick New Member

    Is this not the greatest folly of man calling good evil, and evil good?

    Religious men say:
    1. It is possible to choose salvation from the fallen state of Adam nature, flesh.
    2. It is impossible for God to save all men, because of men’s ability to choose life, or death.

    God says:
    1. It is impossible for man to comprehend the things of the Spirit of Life, therefore it is impossible to get saved just by mere human choice.
    2. It is possible to save all men because all things are possible to him.

    Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
    4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    What is genuine Human freedom and when has anyone ever been genuinely free?

    Scripture states that we were slaves to sin.

    Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    Where the word servant is translated from the Greek word:

    G1401 doulos
    From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

    Rom 6:16-23 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. (21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. (22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    After being a slave to sin than we were bought with a price and we are not our own. We now belong to God!!

    1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

    So when were we ever free? We are either slaves of sin or we are slaves of God. And that my dear friend is what the scripture says, and this is not my opinion.

    We with just our own natural fallen ability have an endless ability to choose between good and evil. But we do not have the ability to choose life by just our own power. If we choose good we can even think we are serving God, but we are only serving God in a religious pharisitical way; or we can choose evil, and serve the devil; either way we will end up with the same fruit--- death because they are from the same tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is in actuality the ability that WE CHOOSE WHAT IS GOOD FOR US AND WE DECIDE WHAT IS EVIL. the tree of life is WHERE GOD CHOSSES WHAT HE WANTS TO ADD TO OUR LIFE AND THAT NO MATTER HOW IT APPEARS IT IS ALWAYS FOR OUR GOOD, AND WILL ALWAYS PRODUCE LIFE IN US.

    The tree of life is beyond our grasp. It is protected by an angel with a flaming sword. and the only way that you can partake of it is to be invited to partake of it. Yet the Lord will still use the angel with the flaming sword to cut away all disobedience from you as you approach.

    Yes seer, you have a choice. you can choose anything that appears as good to you or you can choose anything that you want that appears evil. But in reality that is only one choice from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and what ever you choose will always lead to death! Your only other choice is to humble yourself and let God choose what He wants to add into your life. The is the tree of life, and will lead to life!

    Grace and Peace

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