• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Does hell exist?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mgairs, Dec 31, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Generally Medicated

    I think the story about Lazarith and the rich man may have a different meaning to what we have been taught , I believe the rich man represents the jews and Lazarith the gentiles :

    Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

    In my understanding of the scriptures the "wealth , purple and fine linen" usualy represents the jews , and this is backed up by a later statement :

    Abraham saith unto him ( Rich man ) They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them .

    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Well jesus did rise from the dead and those who have Moses and the prophets ( Jews ) were not persuaded .

    I don't think this story can be used to prove a literal hell .
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Thankyou to you that took the little translation test. As you know the doctrine of hell's foundation is in 31 verses of the Old Compact. The K.J.V. translators have taken the word [email protected]'owl and translated it as hell. The remaining 29 verses they have taken and translated [email protected]'owl as grave. The following are the answers to the test. Much thanks to all those who have participated. The marks have ranged from 51% to 73% with 14 participants.

    The K.J.V. Translators have translated the following

    [email protected]'owl= Hell= 31 verses

    [email protected]'owl= Grave= 29 verses

    [email protected]'owl= Grave

    [email protected]'owl= Hell

    The Answers To Your Test.

    Gen. 37:15

    "And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him." (grave)

    Gen. 42:38

    "And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead,
    and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go,
    then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to sheol. (grave)

    Gen. 44:29

    "And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring
    down my gray hairs with sorrow to sheol. (grave}

    Gen. 44:31

    "It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he
    will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant
    our father with sorrow to sheol." (grave)

    Deut. 32:22

    "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn into the lowest sheol,
    and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations
    of the mountains." (hell)

    1 Samuel 2:6

    "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to sheol, and bringeth
    up again." (grave)

    2 Samuel 22:6

    "The sorrows of sheol compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me."

    1 Kings 2:6

    "Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down
    to sheol in peace." (grave)

    1 Kings 2:9

    "Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest
    what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to sheol
    with blood." (grave)

    Job 7:9

    "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to sheol
    shall come up no more." (grave)

    Job 11:8

    "It is high as heaven; what canst thou do? Deeper than shoel; what canst
    thou know?" (hell)

    Job 14:13

    "O that thou wouldest hide me in sheol, that thou wouldest keep in in secret,
    until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember
    me!" (grave)

    Job 17:13

    "If I wait, sheol is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness." (grave)

    Job 21:13

    "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to sheol." (grave)

    Job 24:19

    "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth sheol to those which have
    sinned." (grave)

    Job 26:6

    "Sheol is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering." (hell)

    Psl. 6:5

    "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in sheol who shall give thee
    thanks? (grave)

    Psl. 9:17

    "The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God."

    Psl. 16:10

    "For thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thine
    Holy One to see corruption." (hell)

    Psl. 18:5

    "The sorrows of sheol compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me."

    Psl. 30:3

    "Oh Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from sheol: thou hast kept me alive,
    that I should not go down to the pit." (grave)

    Psl. 31:17

    "Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked
    be ashamed, and let them be silent in sheol." (grave)

    Psl. 49:14

    "Like sheep they are laid in sheol; death shall feed them; and the upright
    shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume
    in sheol from their dwelling." (grave)

    Psl. 49:15

    "But God will redeem my soul from the power of sheol: for he shall receive
    me." (grave)

    Psl. 55:15

    "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into sheol; for wickedness
    is in their dwellings, and among them." (hell)

    Psl. 86:13

    "For great is thy mercy toward me; and thou has delivered my soul from the
    lowest sheol." (hell)

    Psl. 88:3

    "For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth unto sheol." (grave)

    Psl. 89:48

    "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his
    soul from the hand of sheol? Selah " (grave)

    Psl. 116:3

    "The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of sheol gat hold of me:
    I found trouble and sorrow." (hell)

    Psl. 139:8

    "If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in sheol, behold,
    thou art there." (hell)

    Psl. 141:7

    "Our bones are scattered at sheols mouth, as one cutteth and cleaveth wood
    upon the earth." (grave)

    Eccl. 9:19

    "Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is
    no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in shoel, whither thou goest."

    Proverbs 1:12

    "Let us swallow them up alive as sheol; and whole, as those that go down
    into the pit." (grave)

    Prov. 5:5

    "Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on sheol." (hell)

    Proverbs 7:27

    "Her house is the way to sheol, going down to the chambers of death." (hell)

    Proverbs 9:18

    "But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the
    depths of sheol." (hell)

    Proverbs 15:11

    "Shoel and destruction are before the Lord; how much more then, the hearts
    of men?" (hell)

    Prov. 15:24

    "The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from sheol beneath."

    Prov. 23:14

    "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from sheol."

    Prov. 27:20

    "Sheol and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied."

    Proverbs 30:16

    "Sheol; and the barren womb; the earth that is filled with water; and the
    fire that saith not, It is enough." (grave)

    Song Of Solomon 8:6

    "Set me as a seal upon thy heart; as a seal upon thy arm: for love is strong
    as death; jealousy is cruel as sheol: the coals thereof are coals of fire,
    which hath a most vehement flame." (grave)

    Isa. 5:14

    "Therefore sheol hath enlarged herself. and opened her mouth without measure:
    and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth,
    shall descend into it." (hell)

    Isa. 14:9

    "Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth
    up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised
    up all her thrones, all the kings of the earth. (hell)

    Isa. 14:11

    "Thy pomp is brought down to sheol, and the noise of thy vials: the worm
    is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." (grave)

    Isa. 14:15

    "Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit." (hell)

    Isa. 28:15

    "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with sheol
    are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through it,
    it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood
    have we hid ourselves." (hell)

    Isa. 28:18

    "And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with
    sheol shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then
    ye shall be trodden down by it." (hell)

    Isa. 38:10

    "I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of sheol:
    for I am deprived of the residue of my years." (grave)

    Isa. 38:18

    "For sheol cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go
    down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." (grave)

    Isa. 57:9

    "And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes,
    and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself unto sheol."

    Ezekiel 31:15

    "Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to sheol I caused
    a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof,
    and the great waters were stayed....." (grave)

    Ezek. 31:16

    "I made the nations shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down
    to sheol with him that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the
    choice and the best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted
    in the nether parts of the earth." (hell)

    Ezek. 31:17

    "They also went down into sheol with him unto them that be slain with the
    sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst
    of the heathen." (hell)

    Ezek. 32:21

    "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of sheol
    with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain
    with the sword." (hell)

    Ezek. 32:27

    "And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised,
    which are gone down to sheol with their weapons of war: and they have laid
    their swords under their heads, but their bones, though they were the terror
    of the mighty in the land of the living." (hell)

    Hosea 13:14

    "I will ransom them from the power of sheol; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O sheol, I will be thy destruction; repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." (grave)

    Amos 9:2

    "Though they dig into sheol, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down." (hell)

    Habakkuk 2:5

    "Yea also, because he transgresseth wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as sheol, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth all nations, and heapeth unto him all people." (hell)

    Jonah 2:2

    "And said, I cried by reason of my affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of sheol cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (hell)
  3. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Generally Medicated

    Habakkuk 2:5

    "Yea also, because he transgresseth wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as sheol, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth all nations, and heapeth unto him all people."

    Habakkuk is a future prophecy and should not be used in this context .

    Write the vision
    And make it plain on tablets,
    That he may run who reads it.
    3For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
    But at the "END" it will speak, and it will not lie.
    Though it tarries, wait for it;
    Because it will surely come,
    It will not tarry.
  4. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    This is for all the Hell believers out there:

    Isn't it odd? (For those who believe in Hell?) by J. W. Hanson, D.D.

    That although the relationship of Christ to the church is often likened to a marriage in the Bible, people continue to view God as demanding their love? No one would want to marry a person who said "Love me and marry me or I'll kill you." Or, "If you don't marry me, I'll torment you forever." We marry for love and because we want to spend our life with the object of our affections. We fall in love because of the tenderness, kindness, and respect of the other. We marry because we want to; because we want to spend our life with the other, not because he or she demands it. Isn't it odd that we are better lovers than God?

    That although Paul says love does not keep a record of wrongs and Jesus tells us to love our enemies, do good to them, and treat them kindly, because this is being perfect like the Father in heaven, God is exempt from all of this? Isn't it odd that God requires us to be more loving than he is?

    That we are told that God is love and that love is defined very plainly in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13) as being humble, kind, caring, forever enduring, thinking the best of others, patient, and merciful, and, yet, God violates virtually every principle defined there?

    That a parent would never consider killing his/her child for a wrong done and that we are encouraged to discipline them for their own good, but God will assign a person to eternal perdition for one (any) blunder? Isn't it odd that we are better, kinder parents than God is, although Jesus calls us evil parents and parents that fall far short of the Heavenly Parent?

    That there is not a just judge on earth who would consider it justice to impose the death penalty on a brother or parent in place of the guilty party, but God calls that justice?

    That we would never impose the death penalty on a child for stealing a cookie, but the merciful God Almighty does?

    That Jesus would die for our sins and yet kill us for them?

  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Greetings Franklin in the Awesome One....You posted...


    Dr. J.W. Hanson has a remarkable 56 page book on Eternal/ Everlasting/ Forever. You may have read it, if not, it is worth the effort. Of course, he is not a "real scholar" so reader beware.


    The doctrine of an "everlasting hell" does not flow from the Glorious One. There is one triumph, and that is the triumph of the One who reconciles all things unto Himself, and by the wonder of His glorious Presence hupotasso's everything unto/into Himself.  He holds in His hands the keys of death and hell, and is well able to turn the keys! His Presence fills the universe and radiates into the darkest hole of despair! He eats thanatos!

     :bow: :bow:

    Mighty Christ from time eternal,

    Mighty, He man's nature takes, 

    Mighty, when on Calv'ry dying,

    Mighty, death itself He breaks.

    See His might,


    King of heaven and earth by right!

     :bow:  :bow: 

    I was thinking the other day, Franklin, how our Lord instructed His disciples to gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing should be lost. The predestined Lord of the Universe performs miracles and when the crowd is fed on a few fish and loaves of bread, He gathers up the fragments that remain.....that nothing should be lost! And we dorks, think for a nano-second that He casts to the rubbish heap the vast, vast majority of the broken wrecks of the first Adam? Oh, please!
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    The Utter & Forever Hopeless Destiny Dogma

    There are insurmountable difficulties that stand in the way of faith in the doctrine of endless punishment. It is a fact that, although its acceptance is accounted by many one of the tests of orthodoxy, it is emphasized at the present day by only a very few. If it really is true, it should be proclaimed by every one; in fact, there should never be any sermon preached without making this doctrine a part of it. Its advocates will admit that there are even whole books in the Bible that contain no mention of it. When we remember that many of these books were issued separately, at first, and that a community might have only one; or two of them, and in them there would be no clear statement of the utter and forever hopelessness of any one dying out of Christ,--this certainly seems surpassingly strange.

    If this doctrine were really true, as it is profest, every believer ought to give up all the ordinary pursuits of life, even the necessary ones, and spend his whole time in warning the impenitent; that is what would be done if a fire that threatened every one were to break out in our city or country; but this alarm is rarely, if ever, shown by believers who are in their right minds. The fact is that, altho it is profest by most Christians, it is not believed by them with any conviction or they would act differently. Edwards and Finney did not think that eternal punishment was rightly proclaimed in a community unless some went insane. Indeed, if it were realized in all its horrors and suffering it would make of our religion a hideous nightmare. Most Christians would be victims of melancholia, and the whole world would become either demented or atheistic.

    To Every Man's Conscience In The Sight Of God 

    We fear any doctrine that does not commend itself ''to every man's conscience in the sight of God," for such a conscience quickened and illumined by the Holy Spirit is the highest light that man has; and if any so-called truth of God does not commend itself to this kind of conscience, something is the matter with it. Most preachers and teachers who proclaim the doctrine of eternal punishment say again and again, "We wish this were not so," or, "We would change this, if we could." They are by such remarks witnessing to the fact that they do not have the full backing of their own conscience, and unconsciously they are criticizing God's government and character. (Rev. Charles H. Pridgeon)

    Dr. Albert Barnes, (Noted preacher and commentator)....

    Our God Is Worthy Of The Confidence Of The Universe!

    "That the immortal mind should be allowed to jeopardize its infinite welfare; and that trifles should be allowed to draw it away from God and virtue and heaven; that any should suffer forever, lingering on in hopeless despair, and rolling amidst infinite torments without the possibility of alleviation and without end; that since God can save men, and will save a part He has not purposed to save all; that on the supposition that the atonement is ample, and that the blood of Christ can cleanse from all and every sin, it is not in fact applied to all. That, in a word, a God who claims to be worthy of the confidence of the universe, and to be a Being of infinite benevolence, should make such a world as this, full of sinners and sufferers; and that when an atonement had been made, He did not save all the race, and put an end to sin and woe forever.

    No Understanding/ No Ray Of Light/ Anguish Of Spirit

    "These and kindred difficulties meet the mind when we think on this great subject; and they meet us when we endeavor to urge our fellow sinners to be reconciled to God, and to put confidence in Him. On this ground they hesitate. These are real, not imaginary difficulties. They are probably felt by every mind that ever reflected on the subject; and they are unexplained, unmitigated, unremoved. I confess, for one, that I feel them, and feel them more sensibly and powerfully the more I look at them and the longer I live. I do not understand these facts; and I make no advance toward understanding them. I do not know that I have a ray of light on this subject which I had not when the subject first flashed across my soul. I have read, to some extent, what wise and good men have written. I have looked at their theories and explanations. I have endeavored to weigh their arguments, for my whole soul pants for light and relief on these questions. But I get neither; and in the distress and anguish of my own spirit I confess that I see no light whatever. I see not one ray to disclose to me the reason why sin came into the world, why the earth is strewed with the dying and the dead, and why a man must suffer to all eternity."

    A Tortured Mind/  Darkness Of Soul/ Dumbness Of Spirit

    "I have never seen a particle of light thrown on these subjects that has given a moment's ease to my tortured mind; nor have I an explanation to offer, or a thought to suggest which would be of relief to you. I trust other men--they profess to do--understand this better than I do; and that they have not the anguish of spirit which I have but I confess when I look on a world of sinners and of sufferers; upon death-beds and graveyards; upon the world of woe, filled with hosts to suffer forever; when I see my friends, my parents, my family, my people, my fellow citizens; when I look upon a whole race, all involved in this sin and danger; and when I see the great mass of them wholly unconcerned; and when I feel that God only can save them, and yet He does not do it, I am struck dumb. It is all dark, dark, dark, to my soul, and I can not disguise it." (Barnes' Practical Sermons, pp. 123-125).

    Oh brother Barnes......

    "Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God; and only he who sees take off his shoes."  Eliz. B. Browning

     :bow: :bow:

    Thine, oh Lord, is the greatness,

    Thine, oh Lord, is the power,

    Thine, oh Lord, is the glory,

    And the majesty and the splendor.

    For all that is in the heavens and the earth is Yours

    Yours is the kingdom and You are,

    Exalted as Head over all.

    Exalted as Head over all.

     :bow: :bow:

  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    More difficult questions for hell believers to answer. 

    [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]If[/font] Hell is real one would never know it by the actions of most Christians.  If they really believed in Hell, they would spend their entire life trying to snatch their friends and relatives from the burning flames. If Hell is real, why don't they do this?

    If there is a Hell and according to most denominations of Christianity the majority of mankind will go there, could you really enjoy heaven knowing your mother or father or children or best friend are suffering everlasting tortures the likes of which would make the Holocaust seem like a picnic? If the Rich Man and Lazarus story (Luke chapter 16) is real and NOT a parable, then we will be able to converse with our loves ones who did not make it into heaven. Would heaven really be paradise if this were true?
  8. God of Love

    God of Love Regular Member

    Well, said, Franklin :)

    I would have to wonder how those "saved" might feel when they're behind dear old "Ma and Pa" in line at judgment, and God determines "Ma" or "Pa" (or their wife, or children -- or all of these) aren't "fit" for heaven, and casts them yelling and screaming into this Hell. 

    Will they still worship God as they watch this?

    Will they jump in glee and truimph of "righteousness"?

    And if so, wouldn't that blatantly break every rule they followed to get to heaven in the first place?

    God of Love


  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    BrainDamage, greetings in our Lord....you posted...


    Lazarus and the rich man is truly a parable. Our Lord spoke it to the multitude representing the envious and hypocritical self-righteous Pharisees who stood in the seat of Moses teaching for the commandments of God, the traditions of men. These blind leaders of the blind, were in my not so humble opinion, :rolleyes:  being referred to by our Lord in this discourse.... "and without a parable spake He not unto them." 

    There are indeed "scholars" that might, and do, argue the fact that this is a parable, but there are also Bible scholars that argue they are wrong. 

    Parable as a noun=

    A fictitious narrative.

    Parable as a verb=

    To represent by fiction or fable.

    Dr. Robert Young, LL.D. a Presbyterian, in his “Analytical Concordance to the Bible,” a work endorsed by scholars in general, states that the word “Lazarus” is “a symbolic name in one the parables,” and he refers to Luke 16.

    Dr. James Strong, S.T.D., LL.D., a Methodist, in his “Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,” which is equally well endorsed by Bible scholars in general, states in his Greek dictionary section, under the word “Lazaros” (No, 2976), that it is “the name of two Isr. (one imaginary).” The imaginary Lazarus was therefore a parabolic man.

    Various other lexicons testify likewise. For example,

    Dr. J. H. Thayer, D.D., Litt. D., a Harvard University Professor, in his “Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament,” states under the Greek word “Lazaros” (p. 367), not only “the inhabitant of Bethany,” but also “an imaginary person, extremely poor and wretched: Luke 16: 20, 23-25.”

    Dr. G. Abbott-Smith, D.D., D.C.L.,

     Principle of the Montreal Diocesan Theological College and Professor of Hellenistic Literature in McGill University, in his “Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament,” states (p. 263) that the Lazarus of Luke 16: 20, 23-25 is “the beggar in the parable.”

    Dr. Marvin R. Vincent, D.D., Baldwin Professor of Sacred Literature in Union Theological Seminary, New York, in his “Word Studies in the New Testament,” p. 396, speaks of “The Parable of Dives and Lazarus”; and on p. 398 he speaks of “the deep impression this parable has made on the mind of Christendom.”

    Dr. Orville J. Nave, A.M., D.D., LL.D., in his “Topical Bible,” a standard work accepted by Bible scholars in general, includes under “Jesus, the Christ, Parables of” (p. 708) the “Rich man and Lazarus, Luke 16: 19-31.” And in his “Study Bible” (published by Moody Press, Chicago), on p. 1162, under “Parables, of Jesus,” he lists the parable of “Rich man and Lazarus.”

    A number of Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias testify similarly.

    One of the best known and generally accepted by Christians of all denominations is M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia.

     In Vol. V, page 301, in addition to Lazarus, “an inhabitant of Bethany,” mention is made of Lazarus, “a beggar named in the parable of Dives (Luke 16: 20-25) . . . the only instance of a proper name in a parable.” It is also there stated that “he is an imaginary representative . . . “; and reference is made, among others, to “Walker, Parable of Lazarus (Lond. 1850).”

     And in Vol. 7, p. 647, “The rich man and Lazarus” is listed as one of Jesus’ parables.

    In Scribner’s “Dictionary of the Bible,” Vol. 3, p. 88, under “Lazarus and Dives,” it is stated that “in this parable alone is a name given to any of the persons introduced,” and several times in the context it is referred to as a parable. Many scholars have contributed to this able work.

    The same may be said of Scribner’s “Dictionary of Christ and the Gospels,” where (Vol. 2, p. 18) reference is made to “Lazarus the beggar, who, in our Lord’s parable (Luke 16: 19-31), lay, a mass of loathsome sores, at the gateway of the rich man.” Here again the context repeatedly speaks of this as a parable.

    Among other authoritative Bible Dictionaries that refer to the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16: 19-31) as a parable, might be mentioned....

     Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible (p. 1617);

    The Standard Bible Dictionary by Jecobus, Nourse and Zenos (p. 511);

    The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, by Davis (p. 353); The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, by Piercy (p. 468);

     The Temple Bible Dictionary, by Ewing and Thomson (p. 383);

    Hastings’ Dictionary of the Bible (p. 538);

     Unger’s Bible Dictionary (p. 651; published by Moody Bible Institute); and many others.

    And additional encyclopedias that identify the story of the rich man and Lazarus as a parable (see under “Lazarus”) are....

    The Encyclopedia Britannica, The Americana, The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopedia and Scriptural Dictionary, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, The People’s Bible Encyclopedia, Fausset’s Bible Cyclopedia, and many others.

     Many Bible commentaries also treat of the story of the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable.

    We see from the above that not only the Bible itself, but also able Bible scholars in general, testify that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. And the context shows that Jesus gave it to illustrate to His hearers, the envious, self-righteous Pharisees (Luke 19: 14), some very important and timely features of Bible truth, namely, the imminent acceptance of Gentiles into God’s special favor in the heavenly kingdom offer of the opening Gospel dispensation, and the casting off of themselves and the rest of the Jewish nation from God’s special favor (Matt. 8: 11, 12; 21: 43), in the closing of the Jewish Age. ’67-38

     :bow: :bow:


  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    HADES is put for the grave, or the state of the dead.

    Our translators have so rendered it in 1 Cor. 15:55. "O death, where is thy sting? O grave (hades), where is thy victory?"

    Let us look at some other passages where it is rendered "hell."

    "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption."

    "He spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption." Acts 2:27, 31.

    Was the soul of Christ ever in hell, in the orthodox sense of the word, as a place of endless torment? But the sacred writer himself explains the word, when he says he is speaking of the resurrection of Christ, that is, from the grave, or the dead.

    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse; and his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed him." Rev. 6:8.

    There is no necessary connection between death and a place of endless punishment, as all men die, good or bad; but there is a connection between death and the grave, or the state of the dead; and there is a propriety in representing the last as following the first.

    "And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them." Rev. 20:13.

    This is the reverse of what is usually taught and believed of hell; for the leading idea is that it will not give up those who are in it.

    Surely the hell the Revelator speaks of is not a place of endless torments. This is further confirmed by the next verse, where it is said, "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," that is, utterly destroyed. Of course, then, this hell cannot be a place of endless woe, since it is not itself endless.

    These passages, which are without point or meaning in the common view of hell, are full of significance when we give to hades, or hell, its true sense.

    For we know that the grave (hades) will deliver up its dead, and that death and the grave will be destroyed in the resurrection, when death shall be swallowed up in the victory of immortal life. Then with a meaning it will be said, "O grave (hades, hell), where is thy victory?"

    For then will be fulfilled the saying, "O grave (hades, hell), I will be thy destruction." Hosea 13:14.

    HADES is also used in a figurative sense to represent a state of degradation, calamity, or suffering, arising from any cause whatever.

    "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell" (hades). Matt. 11:23.

    The parallel passage is in Luke, 10:15. No one supposes that the city of Capernaum went down to a place of endless woe.

    The word hell here, as Dr. Clarke says, is a figure to set forth "the state of utmost woe, and ruin, and desolation, to which these impenitent cities should be reduced. This prediction of our Lord was literally fulfilled."

    Bishop Pearce says, "It means, thou shalt be quite ruined and destroyed." So also Hammond, Beausobre, Bloomfield, and others. The last named says it is a "hyberbolical expression, figuratively representing the depth of adversity."

    The parable of the rich man and Lazarus furnishes another example.

    "And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torment." It will be remembered that the Jews had borrowed their ideas of torment in a future state from the heathen, and of course they were obliged to borrow their terms to express this. Accordingly, after the manner of the Greeks, Hades, or the place of departed spirits, is represented as receiving all, as Sheol did, good and bad; but we have also the additional idea of separate apartments or districts, divided by a great gulf or river; on one side of which the blessed are located, and on the other side the d-mned, near enough to see each other, and converse together, as in the case of Abraham and the rich man.

    It must also be remembered that this is only a parable, and not a real history; for, as Dr. Whitby affirms, "we find this very parable in the Gemara Babylonicum."

    The story was not new, then, not original with Christ, but known among the Jews before He repeated it. He borrowed the parable from them, and employed it to show the judgment which awaited them. He represented the spiritual favors and privileges of the Jews by the wealth and luxury of the rich man, and the spiritual poverty of the Gentiles by the beggary and infirmity of Lazarus; and while the former would be deprived of their privileges and punished for their wickedness, the latter would enjoy the blessings of truth and faith.

    The question may arise, "If Christ employed the language used by the Jews to express the torments of hell after death, did He not virtually sanction the doctrine?"

    If so, then He sanctioned their views as set out in this parable, which, as we have already shown, they borrowed from the heathen. He puts Himself on a level with the Pagan poets, and teaches a heaven and hell in Hades, divided by a great gulf, torments by flame, conversational intercourse between the blessed and the d-mned.

    Now no one believes in such a hell as this. A material hell of fire, and torments by flame, have been long ago abandoned. And the Savior cannot be understood as believing or teaching future torments, by using this parable, any more than He can be supposed to believe and teach the existence of Beelzebub, the Philistine god of flies (or filth), when He alludes to him, and uses his name as if he were a real being. See Matt. 10:25; 12:24.

    So He says (Matt. 6:24), "Ye cannot serve God and mammon." "Mammon" is the name of the god of riches; but surely no one would pretend that Christ, by speaking of serving him, sanctioned the doctrine that he was really a god. And yet He speaks of his service in the same connection, and in the same language, with that of the true God; showing the latitude with which these comparisons and figures are used, without sanctioning the errors on which they are founded. He takes their own language and opinions in both cases, without believing or approving, in order to teach and warn them.

    Dr. Macknight (Scotch Presbyterian) has spoken well on this point.

    "It must be acknowledged," he says, "that our Lord's descriptions (in this parable) are not drawn from the writings of the Old Testament, but have a remarkable affinity to the descriptions which the Grecian poets have given. They, as well as our Lord, represent the abodes of the blessed as lying contiguous to the region of the d-mned, and separated only by a great impassable river, or deep gulf, in such sort that the ghosts could talk to one another from its opposite banks. The parable says the souls of wicked men are tormented in flames; the Grecian mythologists tell us they lie in Phlegethon, the river of fire, where they suffer torments."

    Then he adds, "If from these resemblances it is thought the parable is formed on the Grecian mythology, it will not at all follow that our Lord approved of what the common people thought or spake concerning those matters, agreeably to the notions of the Greeks. In parabolical discourses, provided the doctrines inculcated are strictly true, the terms in which they are inculcated may be such as are most familiar to the ears of the vulgar, and the images made use of such as they are best acquainted with." (Whittemore's Notes.)

    The sum of the matter is, that Christ takes up a parable or story current among the Jews, and, without approving the heathen opinions on which it was founded, uses it to show that the Gentiles (Lazarus) would be received into the Gospel kingdom with Abraham and Isaac, while the Jews (the rich man) would be thrust out into darkness and desolation. And this judgment he represents by the figure of casting into hell, as He had described the destruction of Capernaum by saying it would be "thrust down to hell."

    A perfect commentary on the parable is found in such passages as these:

    "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Matt 21:43.

    "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye see many coming from the east and from the west, from the north and from the south, and sitting with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God, while you yourselves are thrust out." Matt. 8:11, compared with Luke 13:28, 29.

    "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you; but, seeing ye put it from you, and judge (show) yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." Acts 13:46.

  11. Peace

    Peace New Member

    This is good information and very refreshing. I thank God that his promise to make all things new is greater than our religious bias that believes Satan will defeat God’s will to restore all things. Obviously the Church has been veiled from God's purpose and the greater hope for his creation, just as the nation of Israel was veiled from the truth of the Messiah.

    I think it was Isaiah that quoted God as saying “come reason with me”. Why is this so difficult for us to do? I hope you can shed more light on this issue.
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Peace, many there are who see only a defeated Saviour unable to accomplish in fulness the purpose of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ. But no created thing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord...Life can't, death can't, angels can't, powers and authorities can't, things present can't, things to come can't, height can't, depth can't; no creature can separate us from the Love of God flowing to us in Christ Jesus our Lord!

    All dimensions of thanatos are swallowed up in the conquering Lord of the Universe. He eats death and hades (hell) and consumates it in Himself. Yes, "death is swallowed up in victory", for our Lord is the triumphant Lord bringing His enemies to bow before His glorious Presence!

    Swallowed up= Kapatino


    To drink down.

    To devour.

    To swallow up/ destroy.


     :bow: :bow:

    The First, the Last, the Living One

    Laid down His life for all the world

    Behold He now lives forever more

    And hold the keys of death and hell

    Holy, holy Lord God Almighty

    Holy, holy bow before Your throne

     :bow: :bow:

    So let our praises ring

    To Jesus Christ our glorious King

    All heaven and earth resound as we cry

    Worthy is the song of God

    Holy, holy Lord God Almighty

    Holy, holy we fall down at Your feet. 
  13. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    Now doesn't that sound so sweet and nice and makes you feel all comfy cozy. But it is a d a mnable corruption of scripture and what Christianity teaches. Our Savior, the Savior of the New Testament, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, is NOT defeated and He will do exactly as He said He would when all nations are gathered before His throne, "And these [unrighteous] shall go away into everlasting/[aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal/[aionios](Matt 25:46). This sewage is a corruption of the Bible and Christianity. God IS indeed a God of love and mercy but He is a God of justice too. And this one verse from the mouth of Jesus clearly spells out what God will do to the righteous and the unrighteous.
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    I Cor. 15: 24-28

    "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted who did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

    The Grand Closing Scene Of Presentation

    I am now come... to the grand closing scene: our Saviour's resignation of the kingdom delegated to Him by the Father after he shall have accomplished all the glorious designs for which it was committed into his faithful hands.

    This is a very deep, important and interesting subject, and I feel myself incapable of doing justice to it, but as the Lord has helped me hitherto, even beyond my expectation, I trust he will not forsake me at the close. The grandeur of the subject is such as inspires my soul with a reverential awe that language would fail to describe. And having employed considerable time and attention in the contemplation thereof, I feel its consequence and weight in a manner that I cannot express. But having the unerring word of God for my directory here, as I have had all along, I shall venture to tread this devious path, and endeavor to paint as well as I am able, the glorious scene with which the book of divine Revelation closes; when the blessed and glorious Redeemer, having subdued all things to himself, shall resign the kingdom to the Father, that God may be all in all.

    This is the only passage of Scripture that contains any intimation of Christ's delivering up the kingdom to the Father, but as it was written by divine inspiration, this grand event and closing scene is by no means to be disputed, or explained away.

    In discoursing upon this glorious subject, I shall follow the order of the words, and make such remarks as may resent themselves to my mind as I pass along.

    "Then cometh the end,"

    These words teach us the important truth that the Mediatorial dispensation will as certainly come to a period or close, as any other dispensation ever did; though it is by no means of so short a duration as many take it to be. Some make it to end at the second coming of Christ; and others immediately after the general Judgement: but I have in the course of these lectures given my thoughts so fully upon these opinions and the reasons why I cannot concur with them, is that I trust I have no need to repeat them in this place. We may here once more observe, that the word rendered everlasting, does not signify endless, even when applied to the kingdom of Christ; (as it frequently is in the scriptures) since here it is positively asserted, that there shall be an end to the glorious kingdom of the son of God, so often called an everlasting kingdom in our translation: but which I humbly apprehend, might better be called a kingdom of ages.

    Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    He shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; but not until he hath put down all rule and authority, and all power. For the kingdom was given to him for this very purpose, and this he will certainly accomplish, to the praise and glory of his name. His engagements he must fulfil, according to the nature and tenor of the counsel of peace, which was between the Father and his well beloved Son; for (as the prophet says) "The counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zech. 6: 13.

    And according to the inspired language of Isaiah, there seems to have been the nature of a covenant between the Father and the Son, which appears in his being given for a covenant to the people, Chap. 43: 6/ 49: 8, and the words in Chap. 53: 10, 11, are fairly capable of being rendered in such a manner as to make a mutual agreement evident. If he shall make his soul a sin offering, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied," &c.

    And the words of Christ himself in St. John, 6: 37, 40, seem very plainly to imply that he came down from heaven upon an errand of great importance, and which he had engaged to execute, nor can he leave any part of his work unfinished.

    Nothing Left Unfinished

    God the Father having given him all things without exception, according to those texts more than once already quoted in this work (St. John 3:35/ 13:3/ 17:2, compared with St. Matthew 11: 27, and St. Luke 10: 22) expects that the Son of his love will put a final and total end to all rebellion, and bring all the rightful subjects of the Almighty Sovereign back again to their allegiance. And Jesus evidently considers himself under obligations to perform this great work before he delivers up the kingdom to the Father. And I cannot but think that he is fully qualified for the performance of all that he hath engaged to do, and that he will certainly accomplish it.

    "For he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

    It is of absolute necessity that his reign shall endure until there is no more opposition, no more rebellion, or disobedience, to be found in the wide creation. "Jehovah said unto my Adonai, or Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Psl. cx. 1. This the modern Jews apply to David, but it is certain that in our Saviour's time they understood it to relate to Christ, or the Messiah, the Son of David, although they were puzzled at our Lord's question, and were not able to resolve him how the Messiah could be born the son, and Lord of David at the same time. See St. Matt. XLII. 42, 43, 44, 45. St. Mark, xii. 35, 36, 37. St. Luke, xx. 41, 42, 43, 44.

    Let All The House Of Israel Know Assuredly

    And St. Peter applies those words of David directly to Jesus, saying, "For David is not ascended into the heavens; but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Acts 2: 34-37

    When our blessed Saviour was exalted at the Father's right hand according to the Scriptures, then this promise began to be fulfilled. He was then set "Far above all principality and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this world (or age) but also in that which is to some."

    And the Father "put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church." Eph. 1: 21, 22. Our Lord "is gone to heaven, and is on the right hand of God, angels and authorities, and powers being made subject unto him." 1 Peter 3: 22.

    All Is Put Under Him

    Thus all things were put under him in the divine purpose, without exception, but all things are not yet put under him in the sense of these words in 1 Cor. 15: 25, because it is said that he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet: which plainly shews that it is not yet the case. And the words of the apostle in this epistle to the Hebrews, Heb. 2: 8, express the same idea,

    "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him; but now we see not yet all things put under him."

    Here it is evident, that in the purpose of God all things are put under Christ, and subjected to him in so universal a manner, as there is not the least exception; yet it is equally evident that all things are not yet actually put under him: the divine counsels, respecting this important matter, are not fulfilled before the eyes of creatures: but they must be. All the enemies of our Lord must come to be subject to him in a sense far different from what ever hath yet taken place; and Christ must reign until this grand purpose shall be fully accomplished.

    God says, "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear." Isa. 45: 23.

    Rev. E. Winchester (Preacher/Patriot/God All In All (Part 1)

  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Our Triumphant Lord (continued part 2 of 3)

    And the apostle St. Paul, after speaking of our dear Saviour's amazing humiliation even to the death of the cross, says, "Wherefore God also, hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil. 2: 9, 10, 11. When this comes to be actually fulfilled, then it may be truly said, that all our Lord's enemies are in the strictest sense put under his feet, but not before; and this is spoken of by the Apostle as something future, and far remote.

    Death Swallowed Up In Life

    The last enemy that shall be destroyed is Death; or more properly, Death, the last enemy shall be destroyed.

    There are some who would wish to confine this destruction to the death of the body, or that which is called the natural death; but to me it appears, that every thing that bears the name of death in the sacred Scriptures, must be included, and is really intended here. Death and misery of every kind shall be abolished, done away, swallowed up in victory, &c. and nothing but life and happiness shall remain. I cannot help considering this as the genuine sense and meaning of the following glorious promises.

    "He will swallow up death in victory: and Adonai Jehovah will wipe away tears from off all faces." (Isaiah 25: 8)

    I will ransom them (even such who perish in their iniquity and sin, as is evident from the context) from the power of the grave: (or hell) I will redeem them from death: O death I will be thy plagues: 0 grave (or hell) I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hosea 13: 14.

    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Rev. 21: 4.

    The Song Of Triumph

    Then shall the song of triumph be sung, "Death is swallowed up in victory!" And the great and mighty challenge shall be proclaimed through all the empire of Jehovah, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave (or hell) where is thy victory?" 1 Cor. 15: 54, 55. But surely while sin, which is the sting of death, is found in existence, and while pain, sorrow, crying, continue in the universe, it can hardly be said, that death is swallowed up in victory; and while the second death lasts, which is certainly the most terrible kind of death, how can it be said, O death where is thy sting? and, O grave (or hell) where is thy victory?

    But to me, scarce any thing appears more plain, than the certain annihilation or total destruction of all that ever bore the name of death. Then it may be truly said, "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound; that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so hath grace reigned through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 5:20.

    But prior to the total destruction of death, all other enemies, that is, all rebellious creatures, shall be humbled, and shall willingly submit to Jesus, and be his enemies no longer: for certainly at the time when the last enemy shall be destroyed, no enemies can remain in the universe.

    "For he hath put all things under his feet: but when he saith, All things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted who did put all things under him."

    This reasoning of the apostle seems almost self evident: for nothing can be more manifest, than that he (the eternal Father) who put all things under Christ the Son, is himself excepted. Even as Pharaoh said to Joseph, when he made him governor or ruler over all the land of Egypt.

    Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art. Thou shalt be over my house, and according to thy word shall all my people be ruled; only in the throne will I be greater than thou. And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck, and he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had: and they cried before him, Bow the knee; and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt." Gen. xli. 39-44.

    The whole of this transaction was a wonderful type, and a most beautiful illustration of the subject now upon.

    Pharaoh set up Joseph over the land of Egypt because there was none so discreet and wise as he was, that understood the matter so well, was so competent to every part of the business, and that would be so faithful and diligent in the discharge of the same. -- Pharaoh in choosing Joseph, and placing him over all the land, shewed his own wisdom and discernment to be great. Even so the wisdom and goodness of God shone conspicuously in placing his dear Son in so glorious and important a situation. For where is there one in heaven or earth worthy to be named in comparison with Jesus? so prudent, so wise, so faithful, so just, so competent to every part of his work? The Father that therefore entrusted him with all the concerns of the wide extended universe, as Pharaoh did Joseph with the land of Egypt, and all things therein.

    Pharaoh gave Joseph full power, and unlimited and absolute authority over all his people, but excepted himself, in the same manner as the Apostle declares the Father to be excepted. It it manifest that he is excepted who did put all things under him.

    But this exception being expressly made (though it was evidently implied in the nature of the thing) plainly shews that none else can possibly be excepted, whether things in heaven, things on earth, or things under the earth. Christ is truly and really over all, (the Father only excepted) God blessed forever. Rom. 9: 5.

    All are put under him in the most absolute and universal manner, and all are commanded to bow the knee to him, as the Egyptians were commanded to bow the knee before Joseph. To Jesus Christ the Saviour, every knee shall surely bow, and every tongue shall certainly confess him Lord.

    "When all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread; and Pharaoh said unto all the Egyptians, Go unto Joseph, what he saith to you do." Gen. 41: 55. So the Father, having given all things into the hands of Christ, and committed all authority and judgement to him, directeth all mankind to look to him for salvation; his language is,

    "Go to Jesus; whatsoever he saith to you do it. Believe on Jesus, see that ye refuse not him that speaketh; if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."

    God requires all men to hearken to Jesus, and to do his will without murmuring or disputing, upon pain of his severe displeasure. The Son of God is appointed to be the universal Lord and ruler over all, and all shall submit to him at last.

    Joseph had the absolute disposal of all the Egyptians and all their affairs, both by the appointment of Pharaoh, and also by their own consent, as appears by the story at large; so the blessed Jesus has absolute authority over all rational creatures, but the Father's appointment and good pleasure, and shall finally have dominion over all by their voluntary submission and free consent. So that the administration of Joseph over the land of Egypt, was one of the most lively pictures of the universal government, authority and dominion of Christ that can be found, and applies beautifully in almost every instance.

    "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.'

    The time, the glorious time will come when all things shall be willingly subject to the Son of God, and shall submit to his control: as has been, I think, plainly proved in the foregoing course of Lectures. When this event takes place, and there is not an enemy remaining in all the universe, then shall the Son of God deliver up the kingdom to the Father, in the most grand, glorious, and honorable manner, and be himself also subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    His Enhanced Glory

    Some are apt to say, that if Christ should resign the kingdom to the Father, and become subject to him that put all things under him, that his character would be thereby lowered and brought down. But I must declare that I think quite the reverse: even that his character will be exalted in the highest and most glorious manner. For let me ask any one, when did Joseph appear to most advantage? whether when he had the government of Egypt committed to his hands, and went forth invested with absolute authority over the whole land? or when after sustaining that high office for twice seven years, and doing all things well, to the full content of both the king and the people, he came loaded with honor and glory, and resigned the government of Egypt again to Pharaoh, who had given it to him?

    Glory From Beginning To Consummation 

    When he went forth he was glorious, but when he had finished his work how much more glorious and honorable did he appear? -- or to mention a recent instance, fresh in the memory of man, when did General Washington appear most grand and exalted? when the command of the American army was given to him by the free choice of the people? or when after eight years enduring the fatigues of war, and taking part with his soldiers in all their dangers and sufferings, and beholding his labors and designs crowned with success he came amidst the acclamations of the people, and resigned his great and weighty commission to that august body from whom he received it? Was he less loved, honored and esteemed by all the people when he laid down than when he received the important trust? Nay, was he not much more so? how much superior did he appear in that awful day than he had ever done before in any period of his life! But what are either of these instances, though grand and glorious in themselves, compared with the astonishing event and overpowering subject, on which I am treating? Is it possible for imagination itself, in its utmost stretch, on its most lefty and towering wing, to conceive the glory and majesty of that great day, far remote, and distant from human view, and only known to JEHOVAH, when Christ the Son of God, having subdued, humbled, gathered together in one, or reheaded, reconciled and restored all things; and having completely finished the great work that he undertook, shall approach the sacred throne of the Father, attended by the countless millions of his redeemed and reconciled creatures, and resigning the kingdom into his hands who gave him power over all things, shall assume with awful dignity a new character, which is expressed by the Apostle, by being also himself subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all?

    Rev. E. Winchester
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Our Triumphant Lord All In All (Final Segment)

     I have ventured far already, but cannot feel myself willing to quit the subject, without once more endeavoring to represent its beauties in the form of a speech, which I trust will not be altogether unworthy of the Son of God to utter in the presence of his Father, and all the heavenly hosts, on that resplendent day.

    Speech of the King of kings and Lord of lords, upon his resigning his Imperial Dignity to God the Father, having forever put down all rule, and authority, and power.

    "My Father and my God, behold me, and the numerous children which thou hast given me, as the reward of my labor, and the fruit of my pain. I have at length subdued all my enemies, and brought them freely and heartily to submit to my sceptre. Long and severe was the struggle, and many that loved me doubted whether I should ever so far prevail as to bring my greatest enemies to be my friends; but I have succeeded according to thy will, and thy glorious purposes. Thou didst create all to glorify thy name, to enjoy thy love, and to be happy in beholding the light of thy countenance, and when some of thy creatures fell from their first estate, thou didst appoint me to reclaim and restore them.

    "Father, the long expected time is at last arrived, when thy Son having accomplished thy designs, approaches thy throne to resign his kingdom to thee. Thou didst give him power over all, and he hath given eternal life to all which thou gavest him. All that thou, O Father, gavest me, have at length willingly returned unto me, and behold I present them before before thee this day, reconciled to thee, to me, and to each other. See, my Father, and behold throughout this mighty throng, there is not one knee but what bows in the most cordial manner, not a tongue but is ready to shout thy praise, nor an heart that doth not overflow with love to thee. All are thy willing and obedient subjects, reclaimed from all their evil ways, and forever confirmed in the purest habits of goodness. Look, my Father, through the wide extended universe, for thou beholdest all thy works in every situation with the utmost ease, see, there is not one rebellious creature to be found! Where sin once reigned and abounded, grace now reigns and abounds much more. All confusion and disorder now destroyed, the whole creation exhibits one great scene of peace, harmony, and divine order. All creatures are now wholly delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. All things in the universe are gathered together in one, are reconciled to thy government, and conformed to thine image and shall never more go astray. Sin, sorrow, crying, pain, and death shall never more be known in thy extensive empire. Thou shalt be all, and in all. Thy subjects no longer need a Mediator, they are all righteous and holy, and capable of beholding thy face with joy. I have seen the travail of my soul, and am forever satisfied. Thou hast fulfilled all thy promises to me in the completest manner, I have also performed my words to all my people, whom I have redeemed to thee, and from this day resign them to thee. Now they are all one, as thou Father and I are one; one spirit rules in them all, they have all the same designs, even to glorify thy name, and promote the happiness,of each other.

    "Thou art now ALL IN ALL, and let all thy works praise thee.

    "Thy glory shall endure for ever, thou shalt rejoice in all thy works. This is the scene which completes that joy which was set before me, for which I endured the cross, despising the shame.

    "To this bright and glorious day I directed my view; I beheld all things put under me, I saw, beyond the darkness and obscurity of sin, pain, and death, the glorious day of light arise on all thy creatures.

    "It is come, it is come, this is the day I looked for. The night is forever past, and eternal day is risen upon all creation, to set no more. Shout, O Heavens, it is done, it is done. Let all creatures adore thee, for this is the display of thy glorious, wise and gracious designs.

    "Thou didst entrust me with the execution of thy wonderous plan, and this I have completed. Henceforth I resign the kingdom to thee; be thou thyself the Lord over all.

    "In my whole process I have always been an example to all my flock, of which I am still, and shall remain, the Shepherd and head, I will therefore shew an example to all thy creatures that shall never be forgotten, which shall forever confirm thy authority over them; behold, I lay my sceptre and my crown at thy feet, and profess before all the hosts of heaven, and the numerous armies that acknowledge my sway, that great and mighty as I am, I am subject unto thee. I bow myself before thine awful throne, I submit to thee as all thy creatures have voluntarily submitted to me. Behold me as the head of all principality and power, and with me behold all thy creatures submit and bow to thy sovereign sway."

    Here the scene of divine revelation closes, GOD IS ALL IN ALL. I can go no further. The astonishing subject drinks up all my spirits! I am lost and swallowed up in the vast unbounded ocean of love!

    O let my soul absorbed be,
    While God doth me surround!
    As a small drop in the vast sea
    Is lost and can't be found!

    "Alleluia, for the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth;"
    and he shall reign forever and ever, Amen.

    Rev. Elhanan Winchester (Biography/ Writings)  

  17. Francie

    Francie Member

    Hell was created by GOd for satan and his folowers. All who do not except Jesus Christ as savior will go there and will live there for eternal damnation!:(
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Francie...is this inside information you are presenting? Death and hell together are consummated in the Lake of Fire! Do you know what aionios kalasis is? Kolasis is rooted in Kalazo.

    Kalasis= Correction/ punishment/ penalty

    2 Peter 2:9

    "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished."

    Punished = Kalazo


    To lop or prune (as trees and wings).

    To curb/ check/ restrain.

    To chastise/ to correct/ to punish.

    To cause to be punished.

    Our Lord is speaking of kolasin aiwnion. I assume you are a parent, and the correction of your child is the ultimate objective to which you punish. In other words punishment is the end in itself, not rectification/change/transformation. Our Lord, however, punishes with an objective in view, the kalazo of punishment is to curb/check/restrain by pruning! 
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Francie...do you remember posting this?....

    Could you elaborate on what constitutes a true father and mother. What is the purpose/goal/objective for which you discipline your daughter? Do you think our Heavenly Father is nearly as focused/loving/kind/ determined as you and I? 
  20. Peace

    Peace New Member


    Rev Winchester seems to preach quite a different gospel than orthodox Christianity has proclaimed. It's obvious that many here seem unable or unwilling to consider such a possiblity.

    Rev Winchester certainly brings a greater hope than the modern Church has represented. If what he is saying is true it would seem to show God as being much bigger and grander than we have thought and taught.

    When it comes down to it, either we don’t understand what Jesus was saying about hell or scripture is full of contradictions. I'll bet the problem lies with us and not scripture.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.